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There are no automatic failures for skill rolls.
Also, unless you are crafting this helmet in the middle of a war zone, you are, in no uncertain terms, allowed to take 10 on that check. You should (almost) never roll the Craft skill unless you're, like... trying to fix a wagon wheel really fast in the middle of a fight or something.
You only lose resources if you failed to beat the DC by 5 or more if I recall correctly. So do that math. Is 1 + your skill modifier less than DC - 4?
If so, you lose half your raw materials.
You might also end up with a cursed magical item if your GM uses those alternate rules.
You can take 10.
So if (10+your spellcraft bonus) is greater than the craft DC for the item (taking into account missing prerequisites), then you're golden.
If it's not high enough, you conceivably could roll to craft, hoping for a score higher than 10.
Unless your DM requires a d20 roll instead of taking 10. Even then, a natural "1" shouldn't be a failure, unless 1 + your spellcraft bonus is too low.
*Looks up cyclops helm*
The base DC to craft a cyclops helm is 6. That makes it practically impossible to fail, even with a half-assed caster build, even on a roll of a 1. Even less chance of ending up with a cursed magical item or wasted resources.
DC can get as high as 16; increasing by 5 if you don't have access to true strike, and by 5 more if you want to craft in half the normal time. That's the only way I see you possibly failing this check.
If the GM rules you fail anyways just because you rolled a 1, know that he is changing the rules of the game and (unless he gave you advanced notice of the house rule) is either cheating you out of your proper reward, or is ignorant of how the crafting rules work.
And yes, you can take 10 to craft under most circumstances, which helps to avoid these kinds of issues in the first place.
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I'll just leave this here...
Perhaps - for this DM, they felt the need to "control the pacing and tension" of the game and required the player to roll.
Control the tension and pacing of going home to do an arts and crafts project over a cup of tea? This is not a scene that warrants dramatic risk. It warrants a crafting montage. Possibly with a panning shirtless scene with body oil simulating sweat.
Denying Take 10 in this case is out of line. It's denying the clearest possible case for the Take 10 rule to exist at all, and only serves to screw the player out of a spiffy hat they earned fair and square, and already did the legwork for.
Too much irony! Rolling a nat 1 on the check to craft a Cyclops Helm is just hilarious.
Since we're not in the Rules forum, I would definitely say that as a GM I would make the item cursed - 50% of the time you would get the result that you intended to choose, 50% of the time it counts as a nat 1.
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Crafting take 10 FAQ
But that's only if the GM doesn't think that there is a risk of failure and clearly the item turning out to be cursed if you failed would be so you still have to roll.
Er, no, the failure thing is for take 20, not for take 10.
Er, no, the failure thing is for take 20, not for take 10.
No you forget that you can't take 10 when distracted or in immediate danger. But as many threads have shown a lot of GM's will include a chance of failure at the task at hand to be one of those two things. And as the non-faq showed us that choice is up to the GM to manage drama, pacing or to prevent nonsensical results.
Crafting take 10 FAQBut that's only if the GM doesn't think that there is a risk of failure and clearly the item turning out to be cursed if you failed would be so you still have to roll.a "risk of failure" does not prohibit someone from Taking 10.
in fact...
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
so "risk of failure" is actually the only reason given in the rule itself...
Nosig I know this but that is what the entire non-faq was about. The GM can declare that based on the non-faq which is why I started the thread you quoted up above to at least get a PFS ruling on t10 and failing the task your taking 10 on.
Er, no, the failure thing is for take 20, not for take 10.No you forget that you can't take 10 when distracted or in immediate danger. But as many threads have shown a lot of GM's will include a chance of failure at the task at hand to be one of those two things. And as the non-faq showed us that choice is up to the GM to manage drama, pacing or to prevent nonsensical results.
My point was that there was a ruling on crafting and take ten. If a DM wants to houserule otherwise, that's up to them but it isn't the rules unless they are for some reason in "immediate danger or distracted" while crafting which I find extremely unlikely. And as pointed out, the non-FAQ ISN'T a ruling so you fall back on the actual rules...
Have I mentioned how much I dislike non-ruling rulings? :P
Oh I know you do but that faq just says you can. Kinda like how the rules say you can on like a climb check or jump check.
Oh I know you do but that faq just says you can. Kinda like how the rules say you can on like a climb check or jump check.
There is at least some ambiguity on what constitutes an "immediate danger or distracted" with climb/jump/swim as a failed check could result in injury/death. A craft check has to go VERY, VERY insanely wrong for that issue to come up when weaving a reed basket...
"Now I loop the reed around my neck and pull right..." :P
I just realized I've been sucked into another Take 10 thread....
ARRRRGH! I'm taking a re-roll on that Will Save! No more posting on these thread!
Shirt re-roll or do you have an ability?
And can it be used after you know the result?
No you forget that you can't take 10 when distracted or in immediate danger. But as many threads have shown a lot of GM's will include a chance of failure at the task at hand to be one of those two things.
Distraction is explicitely handled in the crafting rules, and there is no immediate danger (unless you're crafting the item while wearing it). Cursed items only come from failing the check by 5 or more, which apparently can't even happen here.
If the GM doesn't like crafting he should simply disallow it. If he regrets allowing it and tries to retroactively nerf the feat or something, he should be man enough to say so and not hide behind some lame excuses.
And as the non-faq showed us that choice is up to the GM to manage drama, pacing or to prevent nonsensical results.
The drama of what, not having the item? Crafting is done far away from combat, and you know whether you fail or not, so there is no drama. None.
Having the character (and the player) spend more time and recources on crafting makes pacing worse. The only exception would be crafting a plot-critical item while the bad guys put you under pressure, or something similar.If crafting fails all the time, item costs make no sense*, so disallowing take 10 is exactly what leads to "nonsensical results".
*) Let's say you're trying to craft a +4 belt/headband. You need 16 non-nat1's in a row, which is a mere 44% chance. That means crafting such an item at half cost isn't profitable on average.
*) Let's say you're trying to craft a +4 belt/headband. You need 16 non-nat1's in a row, which is a mere 44% chance. That means crafting such an item at half cost isn't profitable on average.
Magic item creation only ever requires a single check, made at the very end of crafting.
Ah, I mixed up the different craftings, my bad. Maybe I shouldn't post past midnight.
If a GM wants crafting to be more interesting, they could try Unchained's dynamic magic item creation.
Er, no, the failure thing is for take 20, not for take 10.No you forget that you can't take 10 when distracted or in immediate danger. But as many threads have shown a lot of GM's will include a chance of failure at the task at hand to be one of those two things. And as the non-faq showed us that choice is up to the GM to manage drama, pacing or to prevent nonsensical results.
Calling for rolls vice just taking 10's when you're doing downtime crafting is not improving the pacing of the game, as it's a roll that generates nothing, does not prevent nonsensical results, only generates them, and only serves to fish for botches, which is not dramatic, only frustrating.
Whether insisting on the roll is in compliance with the rules is dubious at best. But even if it's rules compliant, authority is not rectitude. The ruling is, in no uncertain terms, out of line.
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In my games, the players can Take 10 when crafting in a workshop designed for crafting. Most towns rent such spaces for 10 gp per day, but the PCs could also befriend a local mage or blacksmith and borrow a workshop for free. If they are crafting in an improvised work area, such as in a wagon after a day of traveling, then they have to roll.
And even in an improvised work area, a natural 1 is not a fumble.
I am going to say no, but I would add a caveat that the resulting item would have a highly embarrassing cosmetic flaw that would not affect its function.
Example: The item resembles something crude that cannot be mentioned on these boards, but still kills just fine.
This would represent a serious failure in though processes that never the less could not ruin the item due to your rock solid foundation in terms of skill.
This is of course an example of GM homeruling, and mostly represents an attempt to have a chuckle at your expense.
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Quit the GM. Not Pathfinder.
Why give up something you love just because one person has decided to pervert it? Go find an unperverted version with someone else.
Joke not working with this crowd?
Ok then. Adapt for your table so no one is uncomfortable.
How about this: your armor came out fine in stats, but it makes you look like a rubber ducky. Something that can be ignored, except for the occasional jab from an enemy that speaks common (example- low IQ bandit gets dazzled because he is too busy laughing and clapping because of the ducky; "hey, I gave you a free benefit!").
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+1 Ravingdork.
Canvas locally and advertise to find another table group.
Play online with many of the free options there.
Play by Post here on the site or through a blog.
You have many other options to continue playing the game if that DM is just not making it fun for all who play.
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That take 10 FAQ is the worst one I have seen with regard to not being in the spirit of the rule or in line with what was in the book. No dev had ever mentioned anything about it working like that before the FAQ.
Denying Take 10 in this case is out of line. It's denying the clearest possible case for the Take 10 rule to exist at all, and only serves to screw the player out of a spiffy hat they earned fair and square, and already did the legwork for.
The crafting rules were *not* designed with Take 10 in mind (go read the thread!), but to give a small chance of failure when things are non-optimal. To add interesting things to the game (cursed items) and limit difficult items (outright failure). Take 10 leaves *zero* chance of failure, because no one is going to try to craft something that they need an 11 or higher to make!
You only lose resources if you failed to beat the DC by 5 or more if I recall correctly. So do that math. Is 1 + your skill modifier less than DC - 4?
If so, you lose half your raw materials.
You might also end up with a cursed magical item if your GM uses those alternate rules.
Every sentence in that post was wrong. Item crafting does not use the Craft skill rules. If you fail by less than five, it's cursed - that's not optional - five or more and you lose 100%.
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Denying Take 10 in this case is out of line. It's denying the clearest possible case for the Take 10 rule to exist at all, and only serves to screw the player out of a spiffy hat they earned fair and square, and already did the legwork for.The crafting rules[b/] were *not* designed[/b] with Take 10 in mind (go read the thread!), but to give a small chance of failure when things are non-optimal.
That's not true. The take 10 rule applies to all skills unless otherwise stated. If you can take 10 for magical items then it makes no sense to deny it for making a normal item, which has much less value.
You're free to feel as if the rule shouldn't work that way, just like I don't agree with certain rules, but that doesn't change the actual rules. If they wanted specific limits with regard to chance of failure they could said something such as "As long as you can a 5 and succeed then you can take 10".
In addition people do still roll when they can just take 10. It's not the safest bet, but it happens.
Neex to fix my word.
I am not quitting pathfinder.
I quit from DM.
However my country rarely have a DM.
So its the same thing :(
The smart thing to do here then is
Quit your country???
How ?
Any guide.
Not trying to offend, only making observation - You have nothing in your profile, so I have no clue how to suggest details for your particular case in whatever country you may be in.
In general, though, this website hosts Play by Post games for member DM's that want to start up and/or run games here. Online Campaigns Cruise around, there is a recruitment area where DM's post trying to recruit players for their game.
Roll20 is a popular game hosting website, I've played on it and seen people use that and Skype together for an even better experience (but again, do not know your situation tech-ownership wise.)
There are other game hosting sites if Roll20 is not your speed or does not have what you are looking for... Google can be your friend in that regard, or other Paizo members here can suggest some. Almost all are free.
There are TONS of gaming, miniature & RPG discussion websites where you can reach out and make contacts for online or Play by Post games, or you just might find someone close by after all that you had NO IDEA played.
Cast the net wide!
Neex to fix my word.
I am not quitting pathfinder.
I quit from DM.
However my country rarely have a DM.
So its the same thing :(
The smart thing to do here then is
Quit your country???
I dont want to.
Probably i choose using internet.
Yeah, quitting your country over a game may be irresponsible!
The crafting rules[b/] were *not* designed[/b] with Take 10 in mind (go read the thread!), but to give a small chance of failure when things are non-optimal.That's not true. The take 10 rule applies to all skills unless otherwise stated. If you can take 10 for magical items then it makes no sense to deny it for making a normal item, which has much less value.
Pardon - I meant the magic item crafting rules, not the Craft skill rules. Those were obviously designed with Take 10 in mind.
Comparison: You can make a DC 20 craft(alchemy) check to make an alchemist fire, or to make a CL 15 cure serious wounds potion (2250gp).Edit: Link added to mention of the playtest thread above.
Yeah, quitting your country over a game may be irresponsible!Neex to fix my word.
I am not quitting pathfinder.
I quit from DM.
However my country rarely have a DM.
So its the same thing :(
The smart thing to do here then is
Quit your country???
I dont want to.
Probably i choose using internet.
How so? People quit their countries in search of a better life all the time. ;P
Pardon - I meant the magic item crafting rules, not the Craft skill rules. Those were obviously designed with Take 10 in mind.
Comparison: You can make a DC 20 craft(alchemy) check to make an alchemist fire, or to make a CL 15 cure serious wounds potion (2250gp).
Edit: Link added to mention of the playtest thread above.
I looked through the thread quick and did a search for 'take ten' and only found that the thread ended with the question of 'is take ten allowed' up in the air: as such, I don't really find that thread compelling in the question of it being 'in mind'. In fact, it seems the opposite IMO.
Note that the DC on most of these checks is very easy if you meet the requirements and take the appropriate amount of time.
The idea seems to be that it's "very easy" unless you don't have the "requirements" or the "time". That seems VERY compatible with take ten... IMO, failure/cursed items is for when you overreach and craft too fast and/or try to bypass too many requirements and NOT for every time item crafting.