Hello guys,
One of my players want to play a CE PC. The rest of the party is N/E oriented.
Now he asked me:
-How to avoid being a killer sociopath?
-Which should be his arguments to say that Laws and Good are wrong?
I could use some help since i've never played/played with/seen a CE PC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1. If all Chaotic Evil characters simply killed everything in sight, they'd be biting off more than they can chew before long. This is commonly referred to as "Chaotic Stupid," where you are killing things just because you think that's all they do. Proper Chaotic Evil characters are usually intelligent and value raw leverage to keep would-be usurpers in check. That isn't to say that Good characters are interesting for being objectively stupid in their own right, but that Chaotic Evil isn't as shallow or short-sighted as most "Good-aligned" players perceive them to be, and thus why Chaotic Stupid became a trope.
2. This can be any number of things. Maybe he finds them stupid and pointless. Maybe he once adhered to these things and found out that it wasn't actually the case. Maybe he lost someone or something because of this adherence and decided not to be so petty or complacent for fear of further loss. This is something that the player should find out for himself, as this reason varies from character to character.
Step 1: Don't be a killer sociopath.
That said, CE is hard to play without being something along those lines (or actually playing a different alignment, and just having that on your character sheet.)
A Chaotic evil person doesn't care about harm to others, doesn't care about the regard of other people and is typically a slave to their own passions and wants. Most wouldn't bother, or even see a need to justify this behavior or bother to argue that it is 'right' it is what they want, and what they want is all that matters. Other people are at best 'things' to them, and important only as obstacles or objects of desire.
Frankly, it is hard to find a motivation for a chaotic evil person to work with a group on more than a temporary ad-hoc basis, unless either compelled or in command (and if in command, their underlings certainly aren't 'safe'.)
I would ask your player, given that they want to not be a killer sociopath and want to convince others that they are doing the right thing, what motivates them to want to play chaotic evil?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This has red flags all over it. It sounds like the player wants to be CE just to be special, but doesn't have an actual character concept to justify it. Just. Say. No.
If someone came up to me with a fleshed-out and interesting CE character, who had a specific hook that ties them tightly to the party and the story, I might work with them to make it happen. But it doesn't sound like your player has any of that.
If you really want to let him try this Bad Idea, make sure he is highly motivated to work cooperatively with the rest of the party. More details about his character, about the rest of the party (in terms of their character motivations,) and about the story you are planning could help us brainstorm hooks. But the best would just be to say "No."
First, thanks to all of you!
Second: i'm confident that the player in question is not one of those who want to screw the party or play a sociopath, that's why i asked here instead of saying No instantly.
The fact is that anyway all the PCs will play in a group under the influence of an Evil and Powerful master, so chaotic or not, willing or not, he will have to respect the authorities above his head since they're far above his level for now.
I'm gonna watch that youtube video and lets see if i figure out something more about.
First, thanks to all of you!
Second: i'm confident that the player in question is not one of those who want to screw the party or play a sociopath, that's why i asked here instead of saying No instantly.The fact is that anyway all the PCs will play in a group under the influence of an Evil and Powerful master, so chaotic or not, willing or not, he will have to respect the authorities above his head since they're far above his level for now.
I'm gonna watch that youtube video and lets see if i figure out something more about.
The most important question to answer is "will having this character in the party make the game more fun for the other players?" "Will it enhance their stories?"
- Acceptable CE character: This sadistic thug is the brother of another party member (who is true neutral). They have grown up watching each others' backs, and are experienced fighting as a team (e.g., CE brother is a dirty trick fighter and N sister is a rogue.) His sister does her best to keep him out of too much trouble, and help him escape the consequences when he does get himself in a nasty situation. Although this character enjoys hurting other people, displaying dominance, and generally feeling like he is powerful, he does care for his sister and is ferociously protective of her, going to any extreme to punish someone who threatens her (sometimes to the extent that she must try her best to restrain him lest he overreact.)
- Unacceptable CE character: This loner is a mercenary who loves killing even more than he loves the gold that comes from it. He is hired by the same boss who hires the party, and has been promised tens of thousands of gold pieces should he successfully complete the boss' goal. Moreover, the boss not only knows incriminating information about the mercenary, but he also knows his associates and favorite haunts well enough that it would be simple for the boss to have the mercenary arrested by the King's Guard at any time should he prove to displease the boss.
Although both these CE characters have reasons to stay with the party, only the first is likely to have meaningful PC interactions that further their mutual story and make for story lines that are mutually enjoyed, rather than "I go do my own CE thing for 10 minutes that's completely unrelated to everyone else's character arc."
Although both these CE characters have reasons to stay with the party, only the first is likely to have meaningful PC interactions that further their mutual story and make for story lines that are mutually enjoyed, rather than "I go do my own CE thing for 10 minutes that's completely unrelated to everyone else's character arc."
If that CE thing is "secretly turn the town into a haven of Shadows," for example, it most certainly can be related to everyone else's story.
I just think people getting burned by too many Chaotic Stupid players makes them unable to decipher the difference between the two, and as such should really only treat the two cents they usually provide as a cautionary tale at best.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
[/i] This sadistic thug is the brother of another party member (who is true neutral). They have grown up watching each others' backs, and are experienced fighting as a team (e.g., CE brother is a dirty trick fighter and N sister is a rogue.) His sister does her best to keep him out of too much trouble, and help him escape the consequences when he does get himself in a nasty situation. Although this character enjoys hurting other people, displaying dominance, and generally feeling like he is powerful, he does care for his sister and is ferociously protective of her, going to any extreme to punish someone who threatens her (sometimes to the extent that she must try her best to restrain him lest he overreact.)
I don't see anything chaotic in this character at all. More lawful even. And while there is some 'evil' it is pretty minor, certainly could fit into a 'neutral' alignment on the good-evil scale.
And of course the entire thing depends on another character being willing to go along with it, and a chaotic evil person might 'care' about a sister, but it would be in a controlling and probably abusive (at least emotionally, if not physically) manner. It is this sort of thing that makes them evil rather than just 'not good'.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just think people getting burned by too many Chaotic Stupid players makes them unable to decipher the difference between the two, and as such should really only treat the two cents they usually provide as a cautionary tale at best.
Maybe. But I personally have never seen an example of a chaotic evil character that was playable in a traditional game (long term, cooperative etc.) or I didn't think a different alignment actually 'fit' better and they were chaotic evil in name only.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
[/i] This sadistic thug is the brother of another party member (who is true neutral). They have grown up watching each others' backs, and are experienced fighting as a team (e.g., CE brother is a dirty trick fighter and N sister is a rogue.) His sister does her best to keep him out of too much trouble, and help him escape the consequences when he does get himself in a nasty situation. Although this character enjoys hurting other people, displaying dominance, and generally feeling like he is powerful, he does care for his sister and is ferociously protective of her, going to any extreme to punish someone who threatens her (sometimes to the extent that she must try her best to restrain him lest he overreact.)I don't see anything chaotic in this character at all. More lawful even. And while there is some 'evil' it is pretty minor, certainly could fit into a 'neutral' alignment on the good-evil scale.
And of course the entire thing depends on another character being willing to go along with it, and a chaotic evil person might 'care' about a sister, but it would be in a controlling and probably abusive (at least emotionally, if not physically) manner. It is this sort of thing that makes them evil rather than just 'not good'.
That description only describes a small part of the character. Mostly just his biggest motivation/trigger. I could make a character with at least any non good alignment from that description. Pretty sure the point was to give a good example of why a CE character might long term might stay with the party and remain loyal
Other reasons include
1. Finding the Pc's amusing
2. Adventuring parties are a great defense/cover against paladins and provide a legal(ish) way to kill and break stuff
3. Really dislike BBEG
4. The PCs his friends
5. Any non morality based reason that any other character would use
The problem is that many players view CE as an excuse to murder hobo. Its an alignment that has been as misrepresented as paladins
The best way to avoid being a kill sociopath is to not make yourself one. Maybe killing isn't your first reaction to every single problem. It doesn't even have to be a moral objection. Mass murder typically causes problems when other people find out. There is a dial on both chaotic and evil that can be tuned while still falling in the alignment. That doesn't mean you can't still screw with people whenever they piss you off. Rob them. Commit arson. Get them drunk and break their legs in a dark alley. Spit in their food. Harass their family. Turn invisible and open their office door every time they sit down. Plant contraband and report it. Forge a fake love letter and leave it for their wife to find. The point is there are options other than murder and you can have fun using them
You don't have to disagree with LG to be CE. Heck you can even agree their more virtuous. No one always acts in accordance with their conscience. A CE could just have done so until he doesn't even notice anymore. He could think himself to weak to follow a virtuous path and doesn't see the point in trying to change his ways.
If you want to disagree with LG it gets a bit more complicated. He might find good and evil to be relative terms. Different based on who you ask. Yeah angels might agree with you but what makes their opinion any better than the lower end of the alignment pool. He might have been raised in a society where the values of evil were encouraged and values of good were discouraged resulting in a reversed view on morality. Law vs Chaos is pretty easy to reframe into oppression vs freedom. Alternatively Snobbishness vs Open Mindedness. Traditional vs Free Thinker if you don't want to be opposed to Law just thinking them misguided
You might believe that society revolves around social contract theory and that the individual only benefits from other people following it. Suckers.
Not all CE is violent. You can spread rumors and lies, cheat at cards, talk in the theater, incite discord between friends and allies, steal, cheat when buying or selling equipment, prank, just be generally unpleasant, etc.
Do you work in customer service? Just act like an irate customer. Try to get people fired, don't listen instructions or advice, complain when things don't go your way, eat the last cookie, lock people out in the cold, seduce and betray folk, etc.
My advice is to have the player write a character manifesto. It helps them define their character's voice and give them an anchor beyond "lol murderhobo." Remember that any real person would consider themselves the hero of their own story, even if it's conducted in a chaotic evil manner. They're not just some base psychopath looking for their murder fix to get their jollies.
Example: "I despise this world. Everywhere I look, I see institutions robbing the common man blind. The nobility/government is swollen with excess, bloated with power all taken at the expense of their subjects. They should only rule by consent of the masses! I refuse to consent. I see these sheep-like masses, and I hate them for their weakness and stupidity. There are means, there are ends, and there is a path between the two. Refusing to follow that path over self-righteous morality is the ultimate sin, greater than any lesser evil one could imagine. I can see the path in front of me, and within my will the power to forge that vision into reality. I can, and therefore I must. To do less would be to fail my own potential, and I refuse to make myself a failure. I will bring my vision into this world, and live as an example for what others should to aspire to become. Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Hello guys,
One of my players want to play a CE PC. The rest of the party is N/E oriented.
Now he asked me:
-How to avoid being a killer sociopath?
Drastic solutions may be necessary with this party....
Thanks again guys!
I don't get "the drastic solutions method". I mean, that's pure railroad and a clear message of "No you can't play the Alignment you want to" despite the fact my party isn't in the same situation, as i said they are:
CN / N / LE / CE / and others 2 still deciding.
I talked with the player and i came out with those informations:
- Not a Wannabe Killer Sociopath aka Murderhobo
- His Home-town was destroyed-burned-and got people and family killed by Humans' army (event similar to what was done between the populations vs conquistadores)
- Trying to integrate into human society suffers the worst of anger and is treated as waste
- He wants to make them pay to these men who defend themselves behind the ideals of justice and ghost divinity. The PC wonders why to command is not the strongest, but sometimes it is someone who inherited the throne by birthright (or also how a little rich man can buy rights over people and lands just with money)
Now i asked him why the PC should be considered CE, here's what he told me:
The PC is born in wild nature, in a tribe where Strenght=Power and the rules to follow were Nature's one.
Got his home-town burned down by humans, been captured and sold as a slave while he was just a young boy.
He managed to escape with the help of some friends he made within the years.
Owning nothing started to live in the streets where he was considered a waste.
He started robbing and blackmailing to survive, and soon he joined a thieves guild as an Enforcer/Thug.
This was the first time his life was being acceptable since humans destroyed his home-town.
Now his PC is fundamentally driven by emotions and nature's rules, does that justify the chaotic aspect?
About Evil/Good he said the PC will do the necessary to destroy these corrupted rules and establish the ones he believe are righteous.
Now we'll have to work on why he left that town and that guild to be in the party.
Now we'll have to work on why he left that town and that guild to be in the party.
Seems simple enough.
Maybe he left the town because it was a reminder of his past and what can happen, or he found something that he considers unbearable to Nature's law (such as a guilty criminal going free when they should have died).
As for the guild, perhaps he eventually views the guild as more of a burden to his goal, or that the guild was, in fact, involved with the burning of his home town, investigated them, and either got caught and had to bail, or found nothing and decided to move on.
There are plenty of ways to go about this while still following a Chaotic Evil and Non-Stupid route.
|
'Law is wrong - it's an artificial system created by those who want to control everyone else: your so-called 'laws' are direct assaults on my personal liberties, and need to be torn down.
Good is wrong - it's an artificial set of arbitrary standards masquerading as morality designed to oppress the strong and coddle the weak.
I will be free, I will be strong, and you're in no position to stop me.'
If he's driven by nature and wild instincs the reason for leaving could be anyone from "i just felt in the mood to leave and i will stay just until i get bored" to "there's some fury tótem inside me telling me this is the thing i must to to be a wrath avatar in Golarion".
Chances are everywhere around someone who follow his nature just like a wild animal will...be carefull telling him in the sessions he has the need to poop while they are in a dungeon XD.
Also, if he wants to destroy that "corrupted rules" its hard for me to imagine him doing that without traveling. He should try to go here and there provoting revolutions and disturbances in the cities and then just sit there to enjoy the mutual slaughter (that can be his evil part).
Well being level 1 he can't surely setup much now, so his "CE" soul isn't ready to show up really well yet, unless he want to die like a Chaotic Stupid will.
This said, i managed to give him "the why you leave the town and organization": this organization is entangled in the corrupted gouvernement of the city and is in part responsable of what occurred to him in the past.