Hi there,
New to Starfinder (with no pathfinder experience) so I don't think these questions have been asked before!
1) Does blindsense function through walls? i.e. could a Contemplative with Blinsense (thought) be 'aware of location' of a creature on the other side of a door in a different room.
2) If said contemplative is flying; can they make a guarded step as a move action? What about other move actions? Will the character be limited to the acrobatic flying maneuvers?
Cheers for any help!
1 no sense through is it’s own thing
I’ll let someone else pick up 2
I don't see any mention of flying (or climbing/swimming) under the Guarded Step action in the combat section. I do see it under move your speed, though, so I think if you were intended on being allowed to use guarded step with alternate forms of movement it would list them.
I think, therefore, that you cannot normally take a guarded step using your fly (or swim, or climb) speed.
I think you normally only need to make acrobatics checks for other move actions while flying only if you're attempting a difficult maneuver (like hover) or if winds are "dangerous".
That being said, if someone asked to take a guarded step while flying in play, I'd likely treat it like a "difficult maneuver" in my own games using the acrobatics skill, with a DC of 10+1.5*CR of highest level enemy that threatens your square (or the square you're attempting to move to) +2 per additional threatening opponent. Basically, it'd be the same as a tumble check.
pithica42 wrote: I don't see any mention of flying (or climbing/swimming) under the Guarded Step action in the combat section. I do see it under move your speed, though, so I think if you were intended on being allowed to use guarded step with alternate forms of movement it would list them.
I think, therefore, that you cannot normally take a guarded step using your fly (or swim, or climb) speed.
I think you normally only need to make acrobatics checks for other move actions while flying only if you're attempting a difficult maneuver (like hover) or if winds are "dangerous".
That being said, if someone asked to take a guarded step while flying in play, I'd likely treat it like a "difficult maneuver" in my own games using the acrobatics skill, with a DC of 10+1.5*CR of highest level enemy that threatens your square (or the square you're attempting to move to) +2 per additional threatening opponent. Basically, it'd be the same as a tumble check.
I’d also only allow the guarded step if they have the capability to hover
Robert Gooding wrote: 1 no sense through is it’s own thing
I’ll let someone else pick up 2
Interesting - I was interpreting 'sense through' as a 'higher resolution' version of Blindsense, i.e. Blindsense could tell you something was behind an obstacle whereas Sense through could tell you it was a human wearing armour that was concealing a laser pistol?
I'm trying to strike the balance between 'cinematic fun' and 'broken' before we actually start playing....
pithica42 wrote: I don't see any mention of flying (or climbing/swimming) under the Guarded Step action in the combat section. I do see it under move your speed, though, so I think if you were intended on being allowed to use guarded step with alternate forms of movement it would list them.
I think, therefore, that you cannot normally take a guarded step using your fly (or swim, or climb) speed.
I think you normally only need to make acrobatics checks for other move actions while flying only if you're attempting a difficult maneuver (like hover) or if winds are "dangerous".
That being said, if someone asked to take a guarded step while flying in play, I'd likely treat it like a "difficult maneuver" in my own games using the acrobatics skill, with a DC of 10+1.5*CR of highest level enemy that threatens your square (or the square you're attempting to move to) +2 per additional threatening opponent. Basically, it'd be the same as a tumble check.
Thanks for the detailed reply! The concern that the player (of the Contemplative Race character) has is that his character will be seriously disadvantaged in combat because, as he is flying, he will lose access to lots of move/combat maneuvers. I'd considered allowing him to be considered 'on the ground' as long as he's hovering just above it, therefore giving him access to things like guarded step. You think this would be too powerful? (My feeling is that thematically the Contemplative Race SHOULD be very vulnerable in combat).
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Shieldstromme wrote: Robert Gooding wrote: 1 no sense through is it’s own thing
I’ll let someone else pick up 2
Interesting - I was interpreting 'sense through' as a 'higher resolution' version of Blindsense, i.e. Blindsense could tell you something was behind an obstacle whereas Sense through could tell you it was a human wearing armour that was concealing a laser pistol?
I'm trying to strike the balance between 'cinematic fun' and 'broken' before we actually start playing.... There are multiple blindsenses (although what happens when you get an unlabeled blindsense, like iirc operatives get, is unclear); per the rulebook:
p263 wrote: The typical senses through which creatures with blindsense can perceive are emotion, life, scent, sound, thought, and vibration. Sense Through only matters to senses which are blocked to begin with.
p265 wrote: The typical senses through which creatures with sense through can perceive are emotion, life, scent, sound, hearing, vibration, and vision. As you can tell, this makes no sense at all. Sound and Hearing are listed separately under Sense Through, and it mentions emotion without mentioning thought, which is intrinsically confusing.
As you know, being a human, obstructions that block sight and obstructions that block sound are not the same - for example, you can have a (mostly) soundproof window, and an opaque sheet of fabric. Unfortunately, it is clear as mud how sensing emotion, life (What even is this? Starfinder has sapient clouds in it, so we need a working definition of alive.), and thought actually work. You really don't have any choice right now to but to heavily house rule those three, and you may need to house rule Sense Through (Scent), depending on how you want it to work (I would have it work like Vision, using photons to examine molecules that aren't actually available to be sniffed).
Shieldstromme wrote: Thanks for the detailed reply! The concern that the player (of the Contemplative Race character) has is that his character will be seriously disadvantaged in combat because, as he is flying, he will lose access to lots of move/combat maneuvers. I'd considered allowing him to be considered 'on the ground' as long as he's hovering just above it, therefore giving him access to things like guarded step. You think this would be too powerful? (My feeling is that thematically the Contemplative Race SHOULD be very vulnerable in combat). You're welcome.
If he's essentially "on the ground" and he stays that way, I personally don't see that as being broken. My concern would be mostly if he tries to abuse it by forcing you in 3-D combat (take a guarded step "up") or in a combat scenario where there are unreachable edges (take a guarded step off a cliff edge). In those cases, I'd probably make him roll just to keep from abusing it.
The flight rules have always been all kinds of wonky and hard to use (especially with miniatures and mixes of players/monsters that can and can't fly). I find them to be a pain in my butt (both as a player and as a DM) so I take steps to avoid using them.
Actually there are some races that get bonuses from moving on a 3D plane even listing a guarded step up or down look at the kalo
pithica42 wrote: Shieldstromme wrote: Thanks for the detailed reply! The concern that the player (of the Contemplative Race character) has is that his character will be seriously disadvantaged in combat because, as he is flying, he will lose access to lots of move/combat maneuvers. I'd considered allowing him to be considered 'on the ground' as long as he's hovering just above it, therefore giving him access to things like guarded step. You think this would be too powerful? (My feeling is that thematically the Contemplative Race SHOULD be very vulnerable in combat). You're welcome.
If he's essentially "on the ground" and he stays that way, I personally don't see that as being broken. My concern would be mostly if he tries to abuse it by forcing you in 3-D combat (take a guarded step "up") or in a combat scenario where there are unreachable edges (take a guarded step off a cliff edge). In those cases, I'd probably make him roll just to keep from abusing it.
The flight rules have always been all kinds of wonky and hard to use (especially with miniatures and mixes of players/monsters that can and can't fly). I find them to be a pain in my butt (both as a player and as a DM) so I take steps to avoid using them. Thanks guys - I'm going to houserule that the contemplative can utilise any of the normal combat/move maneuvers if he remains 'on the ground' or is in zero-g. I'm also going to allow taking a 5ft step (or guarded step) into the 3d plane, at which point flight rules take over. Cheers for all the advice!
quindraco wrote: Shieldstromme wrote: Robert Gooding wrote: 1 no sense through is it’s own thing
I’ll let someone else pick up 2
Interesting - I was interpreting 'sense through' as a 'higher resolution' version of Blindsense, i.e. Blindsense could tell you something was behind an obstacle whereas Sense through could tell you it was a human wearing armour that was concealing a laser pistol?
I'm trying to strike the balance between 'cinematic fun' and 'broken' before we actually start playing.... There are multiple blindsenses (although what happens when you get an unlabeled blindsense, like iirc operatives get, is unclear); per the rulebook:
p263 wrote: The typical senses through which creatures with blindsense can perceive are emotion, life, scent, sound, thought, and vibration. Sense Through only matters to senses which are blocked to begin with.
p265 wrote: The typical senses through which creatures with sense through can perceive are emotion, life, scent, sound, hearing, vibration, and vision. As you can tell, this makes no sense at all. Sound and Hearing are listed separately under Sense Through, and it mentions emotion without mentioning thought, which is intrinsically confusing.
As you know, being a human, obstructions that block sight and obstructions that block sound are not the same - for example, you can have a (mostly) soundproof window, and an opaque sheet of fabric. Unfortunately, it is clear as mud how sensing emotion, life (What even is this? Starfinder has sapient clouds in it, so we need a working definition of alive.), and thought actually work. You really don't have any choice right now to but to heavily house rule those three, and you may need to house rule Sense Through (Scent), depending on how you want it to work (I would have it work like Vision, using photons to examine molecules that aren't actually available to be sniffed). It does seem to need a little official clarification! For my immediate problem with the Contemplative races blindsense (thought) I'm going to houserule that it can be used to 'see through walls' but won't give you any more detail than an awareness of location. Might prompt the Contemplative to move to a nice close melee range of enemies ;)
Shieldstromme wrote: 1) Does blindsense function through walls? i.e. could a Contemplative with Blinsense (thought) be 'aware of location' of a creature on the other side of a door in a different room.
I understand Blindsense to be sort of a vibration based sense.
Study walls and study floors, no penetration.
If the walls were noted as being thin or were otherwise full of cracks or holes, maybe penetration. Might work through wooden walls and floors, since wood really conducts vibrations.
Could probably use blindsense through those Japanese Paper walls and doors.
Should definitely be able to notice explosions or earthquakes on the other side of even the more study walls.
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