I suppose this could be sent to Advice but I'm looking for less "How should I?" and more "How do others?" when it comes to this topic.
Anyway, yes this was kinda inspired by the whole Wizard thread(s?) but it's something I've noticed when I look for games online. I keep seeing Summons banned. Not just Summoners, I keep seeing Summons of any kind banned.
Which I suppose does make a bit of sense from the "Management" side. Too many can make it hard to keep up with all the stats along with dominating combat encounters. I have seen a few ways of dealing with it though.
1) "Average" - DM takes control and moves them about based on what orders they get, if possible. DM just averages damage rolls or handwaves combat on the Summon turns.
2) "Off Screen" - DM handwaves that the summon creatures just 'engage' or 'take care of' X number of targets in battle. Usually used for big encounters as not to slow it down. You might have summoned 12 wolves but they only tied up 4+ Bandits, deal with the remaining 6.
3) Specialized - Dm allows he PC to take full control of the Summon, but in exchange they tend to be limited in selection. Usually it's a theme based around the character but tends to favor a Type of creature to summon; Animals, Elementals, Celestials, etc. And usually 1 at a time.
So what ways have you seen or used to deal with Summons in game? I'm asking for how to manage combat but hearing in general how other players/DM's manage them could be useful and interesting to see.
My table rules for summoner class players:
1. You're expected to have the stats of any monster you plan to summon. If you don't have the stats printed and ready to play, your character doesn't know how to summon that creature. Flicking through books or opening websites is not acceptable, the stat block must be physically available.
2. You're expected to have your turn planned in advance when you come up on initiative. Usually I'll give you a slow countdown from five. If you aren't ready to tell me what you're doing, your turn will be delayed. If your delayed turn arrives and you're still not ready, your round of actions will be skipped.
3. I will usually give you control over your summoned creatures, but reserve the right to rule that an order or command may be outside of the summon's abilities, and veto that action. Examples include giving animal summons complex strategical orders outside of 'attack the nearest enemy' or 'go there'. Unless you have a shared language, you will be unable to give complex orders to any summoned creature, and it will simply attack your opponents to the best of its ability.
4. Your turn occurs before your summoned creatures act, to allow you to direct them. Summoned creatures act in the order they were summoned. If you delay, they delay as well. No shenanigans with turn orders please.
Only allow one summoned creature at a time, for any given summon spell. Instead of summoning multiples of a lower level list, those spells can summon a creature from a lower level list and add the advanced or giant template to that creature.
Only allow one summoned creature at a time, for any given summon spell. Instead of summoning multiples of a lower level list, those spells can summon a creature from a lower level list and add the advanced or giant template to that creature.
Actually that sounds like it would make sense for most lower tier creatures. I might yoink that
I use these more as guidelines rather then hard rules.
1)One summon spell active at a time. Fine if you summon multiples of the same creature.
2)Please make an effort to have the stat block, including adjustments for things like augment summons.
3)I recommend summoning the same creature most of the time so that you are familiar with it. For example, I generally summoned a celestial ape when I cast summon monster III, and a celestial Ankylosaurus with summon V.
4)If you want the creature to do more than attack the nearest enemy, you must have a way to communicate. Orders are limited by the creatures intelligence and understanding.
5)The player must be mindful of how the summons affect the other party members, and not disrupt or slow down play.
6)If there are already 5 players, you should probably not focus on summoning.
Most of this applies to anything that adds additional NPC's to the party. The focus should be on the PC's, not cohorts, pets, mounts, etc.
I suppose this could be sent to Advice but I'm looking for less "How should I?" and more "How do others?" when it comes to this topic.
Anyway, yes this was kinda inspired by the whole Wizard thread(s?) but it's something I've noticed when I look for games online. I keep seeing Summons banned. Not just Summoners, I keep seeing Summons of any kind banned.
Which I suppose does make a bit of sense from the "Management" side. Too many can make it hard to keep up with all the stats along with dominating combat encounters. I have seen a few ways of dealing with it though.
1) "Average" - DM takes control and moves them about based on what orders they get, if possible. DM just averages damage rolls or handwaves combat on the Summon turns.
2) "Off Screen" - DM handwaves that the summon creatures just 'engage' or 'take care of' X number of targets in battle. Usually used for big encounters as not to slow it down. You might have summoned 12 wolves but they only tied up 4+ Bandits, deal with the remaining 6.
3) Specialized - Dm allows he PC to take full control of the Summon, but in exchange they tend to be limited in selection. Usually it's a theme based around the character but tends to favor a Type of creature to summon; Animals, Elementals, Celestials, etc. And usually 1 at a time.
So what ways have you seen or used to deal with Summons in game? I'm asking for how to manage combat but hearing in general how other players/DM's manage them could be useful and interesting to see.
I give the player full control of the summons. It's one less thing I have to deal with as a GM. The only way he would not get full control would be if he had no way to communicate with the creature that was summoned.
So far this has never been an issue unless animals were summoned.
As for banning them I've never seen it. I did almost ban them once, but that was because the player wanted to take up the time to decide what monster to choose, and he didnt have the stats. In addition he had augment summoning. I told him that if he wanted to use them he had to be better prepared.
As a player I tend to have a short list of summons with stats available. If something is needed that my short list can't do I look up the stats when it's not my turn so that when my turn comes I'm ready.
There used to be a site somewhere that did the calculations for you.
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As noted above, the first thing is to require the spellcaster player to have stat blocks pre-printed before summoning any creature. It's very easy to use the d20pfsrd site to copy and paste into word, then juggle the formatting until you get a usable result for a word document. The spellcaster player should also pre-adjust the creatures stats for any relevant feats, like improved summoning, celestial templates and so on. Some of the critters linked from d20pfsrd already have that info included.
For critters with special powers, feats or even spells they can cast, this also means looking up the special requirements and effects of those spells, feats or powers.
Second thing is to be sure that the spellcaster can communicate with the critter. He should really only be summoning critters whose language he can speak. Otherwise, it will simply attack until dead.
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
I have no problem with multiple summons at the table, as long as it's within reason, and the spellcaster player can make all his rolls and action decisions quickly.
YMMV.
I've never seen any of the mitigation factors in OP happen at table. On the other hand, we've rarely pushed the envelope on summoning, so there's been no real problem to solve so far.
When GM-ing, I usually run summons myself--they are NPCs, after all.
When GM-ing, I usually run summons myself--they are NPCs, after all.
I have a problem with this, if what you mean is that you not only determine the summoned critters tactics but also handle its attack rolls, spellcasting and so on.
IMHO one of the DM's jobs is to enhance player agency. So the player should make all relevant rolls and decisions about placement on the battlemap as much as possible, and within the logical limits of what the PC spellcaster can communicate to the critter in question. Without communication, the critter will simply attack the spellcaster's opponents, as per the spell description.
I'd say the default assumption of the rules is that the DM is responsible for running creatures summoned, but the reality is that that would be too much of a burden to put on my DMs, and the summoner should be the one responsible for making that part run smoothly, with the DM vetoing anything he considers out of line.
When GM-ing, I usually run summons myself--they are NPCs, after all.I have a problem with this, if what you mean is that you not only determine the summoned critters tactics but also handle its attack rolls, spellcasting and so on.
IMHO one of the DM's jobs is to enhance player agency. So the player should make all relevant rolls and decisions about placement on the battlemap as much as possible, and within the logical limits of what the PC spellcaster can communicate to the critter in question. Without communication, the critter will simply attack the spellcaster's opponents, as per the spell description.
OK.