Also dex damage its piercing (i think ever) and some creatures get rd from that. Also to crash things str is the keyLight Hammer, Gladius, Butterfly Sword... a bunch of others.All dex to damage are weapon type specific Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace, Dervish Dance none of which work for bludgeoning weapons.
Agile works for all eligible weapons but it's unlikely that a PC is carrying 3 around to cover DR.
"one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon":
Dwarven maulaxe: B or SRope gauntlet: B or S
Youre still talking about increasingly specific builds rather than the actual ability scores and what is derived from them.
To note, Lucerne Hammers have 2 possible damage types. That can be very useful when you encounter enemies with any rules related to that like damage reduction.
There are weapons with multiple damage types, different critical chances & multipliers, special rules, and so on that have increasingly less to do with the topic.
I gotta spend two more feats now? Just for an extra +1 to damage?
You misread Trained Grace.
The feat doubles the damage bonus from Weapon Training.
At the level you would normally afford to add Agile to two weapons you would normally have a +2 bonus from weapon training.
Using the money would would have spend on Agile to purchase Gloves of Dueling, raising your Weapon Training to +4 (with Trained Grace this is +4 to-hit and +8 to damage).
This adds to every single attack roll. Primary and off-hand. Unlike a slayer or unchained rogue, it not precision damage. It multiplies on a critical and works on creatures that ignore precision damage.
The attack stat block I was using comes from the level 15 fighter in a group just entering book 6 of the AP. She's had those values since the last quarter of book 5. The means she'll be using those numbers, or better, for about 20% of the AP.
The big point being that rangers and slayers don't need to split dex/str, they can stack str, Urogue can just stack dex and meet the feat prereqs and ubarbs can dex stack because their rage is a raw + to hit and damage not a str bonus plus they're a class with access to pounce, making up for the lessened damage by more access to full attacking as well as their stances buffering the stat split.Trained grace is good but you're now splitting str/dex and tacking another feat requirement onto a feat heavy combat style.
It is a careful balancing act, but she deals more damage than the party's resident Titan Mauler.
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It's pretty useful to the players that just build characters to play instead of keeping up with the latest and lamest min-maxed build approved by the community.
I don't actually find splitting stats between Str and Dex that detrimental.
I mean, let's see. Maybe I'll make a human fighter to do Twf with a standard (we'll accept this as standard) 20 point buy.
Str: 16
Dex: 14 + 2 racial
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
Put the level four increase into Dex to afford the Twf feat, and this seems pretty decent. I haven't even dumped any stats, so I would probably drop Cha to 8 and put Int to 12. That's a personal preference but just as easily wisdom works.
If you have a good double weapon you can even still two-hand. Add in that trained grace and you can drop Str to maybe a 14 to get dex 18. I mean from the ability scores alone, this character doesn't seem handicapped all that much.
Edit: If you go for the trained grace approach, this would be a pretty standard stat layout for most archer builds.
It's pretty useful to the players that just build characters to play instead of keeping up with the latest and lamest min-maxed build approved by the community.
I too am a true ROLEplayer!
I don't actually find splitting stats between Str and Dex that detrimental.
I mean, let's see. Maybe I'll make a human fighter to do Twf with a standard (we'll accept this as standard) 20 point buy.
Str: 16
Dex: 14 + 2 racial
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 10Put the level four increase into Dex to afford the Twf feat, and this seems pretty decent. I haven't even dumped any stats, so I would probably drop Cha to 8 and put Int to 12. That's a personal preference but just as easily wisdom works.
If you have a good double weapon you can even still two-hand. Add in that trained grace and you can drop Str to maybe a 14 to get dex 18. I mean from the ability scores alone, this character doesn't seem handicapped all that much.
In the face of standard modules and adventure paths they aren't...really, but your bog standard greatsword wielder is going to outdamage them and hit more often at low levels, and they're going to be really heavily vested in figuring out how to maximize full attacking for the duration of their career, and then there's the overkill leading to lost attacks you've spent resources gaining.
the effort to damage ratio is skewed outside of a few classes when you consider what a two handed weapon does damagewise
It's pretty useful to the players that just build characters to play instead of keeping up with the latest and lamest min-maxed build approved by the community.I too am a true ROLEplayer!
I figure the best we can do is provide for both.
Some of us actually don't get to play that much, so this is a good substitute.
YMMV
Edit: I mean, the two also go hand in hand. If everyone I played with was doing Dex based builds, I would want to play something original and go with Str based. Yet if optimally and mechanically Str based is inferior (which I don't think it is, but oh well), then I am discouraged from building an original character I can enjoy.
It's pretty useful to the players that just build characters to play instead of keeping up with the latest and lamest min-maxed build approved by the community.I too am a true ROLEplayer!
Its not even about min/maxing if you're doing that you're an archer as (bow) archery numerically outperforms just about every other combat style by virtue of like a 90% full attack rate.
When I started playing PFS, I played the rogue pregen my first few games, and soon started wondering why, as a rogue, Merisiel had Str 14. Out of curiosity, I added up the weight of all her gear, and found that it came out just below her light load. And she's not carrying an excessive amount of gear for a rogue (apart from maybe her preference for a dozen daggers instead of a projectile weapon).
In my current campaign, the rogue has has almost exactly the same stats as Merisiel, but with swapped Str (18) and Dex (15). He's a core rogue, because I don't own Unchained, but his player found a way to use Two-Weapon Fighting and still deal a fair amount of damage, even without sneak attack.
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Also dex damage its piercing (i think ever) and some creatures get rd from that. Also to crash things str is the keyLight Hammer, Gladius, Butterfly Sword... a bunch of others.All dex to damage are weapon type specific Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace, Dervish Dance none of which work for bludgeoning weapons.
Agile works for all eligible weapons but it's unlikely that a PC is carrying 3 around to cover DR.
"one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon":
Dwarven maulaxe: B or S
Rope gauntlet: B or S
Like I said you need to pick a specific kind of weapon. The best ones are 19-20 with 2 damage types (or ewp wave blade). So you still don't get full Dr coverage and give up taking a 18-20 weapon unless you take weapon focus and slashing grace again. So the point still stands.
There are also better options than your examples, though 3x is alright.
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I dunno. There's just something classic about tying up someone with a metal pipe instead of rope.
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I gotta spend two more feats now? Just for an extra +1 to damage?You misread Trained Grace.
The feat doubles the damage bonus from Weapon Training.
Yeah, doesn't help my fighter, as Weapon Finesse doesn't change his attack bonus in the slightest. So it would just be the bonus damage from doubling Weapon Training, in this case a +1, next level a +2. Just doesn't make sense.
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I somewhat find discussions on whether Dex or Strength is better to be missing a pretty major point. The reason there is so much contention over this is that martials could potentially become Single Attribute Dependent, tipping the balance more towards those martials than others. Every single martial requires 3 or 4 stats each, often starting with all the physical stats at varying degrees of importance, and often with one mental stat valued more than the others, often Wisdom. The other two are brought down to 7's if stat hungry enough, because no amount of baseline point buy can be of equal value for most martials compared to the value generated by spellcasters (yes, I know, I'm bringing up spellcasters but it's true and part of my point and DEFINITELY relevant to this discussion. We wouldn't be having it otherwise).
Per point, a martial gets less than what a spellcaster does, since the value generated from a spellcasters spellcasting stat is exponentially higher than a martial putting points into one of their main stats, and any additional +1's for a spellcaster is honestly just an added bonus.
Having so much lumped into a single stat means that for that character, their stats are more diverse overall. For Dex builds, it's not uncommon to see them utterly dumpster their Strength score (personally I think that's a mistake but that's just me), and for a martial at low point buys that could mean more potential for character diversity.
For instance, you could increase your Intelligence more so you have more skill ranks, more languages, higher Knowledge skills, and allowing you to contribute more to skill challenges while also dealing reliable damage. Or Charisma, allowing you to really sell that character concept of a charismatic rogue or intimidating marauder. This does not affect their combat effectiveness as much as other characters, which seems to be the sticking point of people who dislike it. They still have their faults (cmd, carrying capacity, climb/swim possibly killing them), but they're faults that are acceptable for the chance of having story impact.
Discussions like this are ignoring the root problem of martials. To consider such a, statistically, crappy trade for the potential of character depth and the stats to reflect it, without ruining combat contribution, really shows how terrible martials are at their core. Stuff like the Vigilante is a fantastic example of fixing those problems, but stuff like the Shifter is also very recent example of how little is actually being done to change the formula.
I gotta spend two more feats now? Just for an extra +1 to damage?You misread Trained Grace.
The feat doubles the damage bonus from Weapon Training.
Don't forget, none of this is halved by off-hand attacks, so it's significantly better value in terms of damage than Double Slice. You don't have to invest as much into Strength as a result, since Weapon Training can carry you damage wise. This means you can mostly focus on Dex and have a reasonable Strength score, benefit from both Strength AND Dex enhancements, and effectively double up on your classes main damage bonus.
It helps bridge the gap for TWF fighter builds without having to stretch ability scores too thinly, which is often at the detriment of mental stats at lower point buys and leaving you with a fairly one-dimensional character.
In my current campaign, the rogue has has almost exactly the same stats as Merisiel, but with swapped Str (18) and Dex (15). He's a core rogue, because I don't own Unchained, but his player found a way to use Two-Weapon Fighting and still deal a fair amount of damage, even without sneak attack.
What's their durability like? How often are they targeted for attacks? Why isn't this stabby, lightly armored warrior being smushed with only a +2 Dex to his name? Most of the time, it isn't potential damage that holds core rogue back. It's literally everything else getting to that damage that does.
A lot of monsters a rogue simply cannot approach or even be in direct line of sight of due to having not nearly enough durability/high enough saves/good enough AC to survive any amount of attacks directed towards them or possible debilitating auras. Twist Away, Resiliency and Slippery Mind are only going to go so far in a given day.
That's why Debilitating Injury was added to Unchained Rogue. It helps provide methods of protecting themselves and their allies through hampering 5-foot steps (so creatures with reach can't keep approaching the backline), reduce attack rolls (helps the rogue most of all), and increase their own accuracy (core rogues actually have accuracy problems, kinda like a monk does).
Additionally Dex to Damage is truly the saving grace of URogue, since it depends on such a powerful ability to keep it from being as MAD as the monk. Personal anecdotes aside. I recognize the problems with other classes having it available to them (although the options have been so thoroughly nerfed I truly believe they are inferior in every way to Strength-based martials), but this shouldn't extend to criticisms of the URogue's Finesse Training.
I almost wonder if part of a good martial fix might NOT be more stat gain as you level.
If we are going Barbarian/Fighter Versus Rogue then lets go deeper.
Dexterity based characters and classes usually have higher skill points, more class skills, more special abilities, and higher initiative.
Trying to actually deny dexterity for Armor Class becomes increasingly difficult to the point your character is almost impossible to ambush. High Perception and Initiative are common. Abilities so you always act in the surprise round are possible.
High raw armor from full plate is nice but Touch AC ignores that. If you plan around Mithril Medium Armor or Celestial Armor that still benefits Dexterity more.
Generally you would want a balance anyway.
People tend to overestimate carrying capacity. Just weapons+light armor+class kit tends to throw 12 strength characters over a light load unless they ditch the rope and even with magic items it's a narrow line. You also can't swim without training if you have a negative strength mod. Two feats and two skill ranks is also quite a heavy cost.
The problem is not that dex is too powerful, it's that strength has very little support. It has never been given many tricks that are strength based and many of what it has been given aren't good or a pain to pick up.
I actually see it as UNDERestimating carrying capacity. You can take 2 traits and a fancy mastercraft backpack and a 7 strength character now has the carry of a 12 strength character without touching feats or magic items. Heck, a DC 15 profession porter check gives you a +2 str bump for carry for 8 hrs and you can take 10 on it. Add to that the fact that bags of holding are only 1000gp away...
As to swim, it's not much better for strength players as they have to deal with ACP. Not much difference between a 10 str in leather and a 24 str with half plate... Whatever you spent for the low strength person, you'd spend on lowering ACP.
Honestly I see use in both character types. The point is raised mostly that Dex characters need a lot of investment to really pop off compared to strength characters, though not as much time to pop off as a Wizard or casting based character.
I have a few Dex-build characters who I used Strength as a dump stat, mainly because they required other high stats. One was a gunslinger whom I needed good Wisdom and Charisma on simply due to the build I was going for, so needing three high stats left Str as one of my lesser needed skills, unless I wanted to take a hit to HP or Skill Points, which I values more. The downside, with a 7 Str, carrying capacity became an issue, I had to meticulously choose my loadout for each adventure or my skills and Dex weren't worth anything to me. The second is a vigilante, who again needed other stats, Con, Cha and Dex. The Vigilante Talents make up for needing the Strength score for things like Power Attack (using Shield of Blades) so I'm covered in that regard, however for her first two levels before I was able to take Weapon Finesse (because I had other priorities for the character) her combat effectiveness was minimal, and until level 4 when she gets her first stat point to increase her Str from 9 to 10 to remove her penalty, she's still not going to be amazing. However, she'll eventually pop off around 8th level with Fist of the Avenger, Lethal Grace and Two Weapon Fighting (unarmed 1d3 plus half-level [max +5], when using Dex to attack plus half-level [no limit] and 2 attacks). She still needs at least a neutral strength score to avoid penalty though, and having a Str positive would explode her damage with the on-hand hit.
Theres something to say about having Weapon Finesse before you try a dexterity build in melee, preferably level 1. If not it's better to use a ranged weapon.
Strength is mostly about combat. Its immediately useful but doesnt do much.
Dexterity is less useful immediately for melee combat but easily fixed at level 1.
Offensively its about certain classes and builds. Its a pretty even split and you can mostly use interchangeably with few exceptions such as the "chained" Barbarian and Bloodrager having strength increasing Rages.
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10 attacks, how? You would need so many limbs
I believe he uses a monk's furry of blows or magus Spell Combat, combined with 2 claws(not sure how he got these, likely bloodrager), Cloak of the Manta Ray for a tail, Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a gore attack and toothy racial trait for a bite.
As a monk he does not need to use his hands to furry of blows, so he can kick kick (with iteratives), claw claw, bite, gore, tail, haste and monk ki for 10 attacks.
To overcome the stacked attack penalties of using power attack and natural attacks with unarmed strikes, he has a very high Dex of 20++ and uses the Arcane Accuracy (Su) Magus Arcana, to add his Int modifier to his attacks.
And he can do all these while defending from melee and range attacks via parry and repose and Cut from the Air (via Myrmidarch magus archetype)
He could have done this build with a Str base, but then he will just have lesser AC, lesser Initiative and an overall much weaker defence.
Thanks for bringing Agile Amulet of Might Fists up. Thats just a nice reason to dump strength as a Monk or Druid after the early game. If you start games at level 5-10 that problem is averted.
There are just several ways to turn Strength into possibly the least important physical ability score and NOT using obscure 3rd party materials.
Even if you do max out your strength you will still have major problems with lacking Initiative and overall mobility due to speed reductions and terrible Acrobatics skill. Youre a a glacier that can be countered with level 1 Grease spell.
There are ways to make it better, like the Unchained Monks Flying Kick, Barbarian's can gain Pounce while raging, and so on but those also work with Dexterity builds better.
Dex just wins over Str. Its just better to start with 13 Str and 18 Dex then 18 Str and 13 Dex.
And unless future books does something to balance this, it is only going to get worse.
They need something for Str like what the Weapon Master's Handbook did for the fighter.
STR is cheap investment. If you want to wear heavy armour, 2 hand something and have a couple extra feats free to play around with, it's good.
It still competitive in offense, and I think the few extra feats you can have if invested smartly can shore up that side. (Step Up/strike, Cut from the Air, Style feats, Imp Iron Wills, whatever).
I believe he uses a monk's furry of blows or magus Spell Combat, combined with 2 claws(not sure how he got these, likely bloodrager), Cloak of the Manta Ray for a tail, Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a gore attack and toothy racial trait for a bite.
Natural attacks don't stack/combine with flurry attacks. Magus requires the Natural Spell Combat arcana for EVERY natural attack type so they'd need to spend FOUR arcana to add claws, bite, tail spike and gore: add to this that the tail spike doesn't activate "until the wearer enters salt water".
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I believe he uses a monk's furry of blows or magus Spell Combat, combined with 2 claws(not sure how he got these, likely bloodrager), Cloak of the Manta Ray for a tail, Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a gore attack and toothy racial trait for a bite.Natural attacks don't stack/combine with flurry attacks. Magus requires the Natural Spell Combat arcana for EVERY natural attack type so they'd need to spend FOUR arcana to add claws, bite, tail spike and gore: add to this that the tail spike doesn't activate "until the wearer enters salt water".
Here is an FAQ
Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?
Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.
Natural Spell combat is if you want your tail to be the primary weapon in your weapon/spell twf.
Dex just wins over Str. Its just better to start with 13 Str and 18 Dex then 18 Str and 13 Dex.
And unless future books does something to balance this, it is only going to get worse.
They need something for Str like what the Weapon...
Strength doesnt need to be be improved at the pro-strength people can attest to.
Dexterity is good but you need to specialize in abilities and equipment.
At level 1 a strength character can use any weapon. A dexterity character must use a Rapier and have the Weapon Finesse feat.
Its a tug of war shifting back. Ultimately I think Dexterity is better as the characters are more well rounded like a Magus.
I believe he uses a monk's furry of blows or magus Spell Combat, combined with 2 claws(not sure how he got these, likely bloodrager), Cloak of the Manta Ray for a tail, Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a gore attack and toothy racial trait for a bite.Natural attacks don't stack/combine with flurry attacks. Magus requires the Natural Spell Combat arcana for EVERY natural attack type so they'd need to spend FOUR arcana to add claws, bite, tail spike and gore: add to this that the tail spike doesn't activate "until the wearer enters salt water".Here is an FAQ
Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon?
Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.Natural Spell combat is if you want your tail to be the primary weapon in your weapon/spell twf.
Here is another FAQ.
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
So while you are correct that you can use a single claw as your weapon, Spell Combat does not allow you to make attacks with other natural weapons during the full round action. As Graystone said, you would need to take the Natural Spell Combat Arcana for each of the other Natural Weapons to be able to make additional attacks with them during Spell Combat. That’s another benefit of that Arcana.
@graystone and Gisher
To be clear, the player was not using spellcombat all the time.
Using spellcombat would just reduce his attacks by 1.
To be clear, there is a dramatic reduction of attack when using spellcombat as only ONE natural weapon attack is usable and that's in place of the weapon attack. [assuming they don't have Natural Spell Combat arcana x4]. No second claw, bite, tail spike and gore.
Flurry of Blow Error -
I likely got it wrong with the flurry of blow, he is likely using TWF instead. Which will net him the same amount of attacks.
As above, there is a dramatic difference in the amount of attacks between TWF and flurry if you are adding natural attacks on top. In the case of flurry, you lose claws, bite, tail spike and gore while TWF can still add them.
PS: I'm unsure WHY someone would have spell combat and TWF on the same character as they don't mix and do the same thing. IMO it's a strange combo, especially if we're talking about the higher TWF feats.
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@graystone and Gisher
To be clear, the player was not using spellcombat all the time.
Using spellcombat would just reduce his attacks by 1.To be clear, there is a dramatic reduction of attack when using spellcombat as only ONE natural weapon attack is usable and that's in place of the weapon attack. [assuming they don't have Natural Spell Combat arcana x4]. No second claw, bite, tail spike and gore.
Flurry of Blow Error -
I likely got it wrong with the flurry of blow, he is likely using TWF instead. Which will net him the same amount of attacks.As above, there is a dramatic difference in the amount of attacks between TWF and flurry if you are adding natural attacks on top. In the case of flurry, you lose claws, bite, tail spike and gore while TWF can still add them.
PS: I'm unsure WHY someone would have spell combat and TWF on the same character as they don't mix and do the same thing. IMO it's a strange combo, especially if we're talking about the higher TWF feats.
Given that he is using an unarmed strike to channel the spellcombat and then making secondary attacks with his natural attacks, why won't that work? He is not using a natural attack after all to perform spell combat. He is using a monk's unarmed strike which makes his whole body a weapon.
As to why he has spell combat and TWF, is that TWF + natural attack are his main weapon, he just uses levels of magus to get Arcane Accuracy for a better to hit (Int mod to all attacks). The spellcombat is reserved mainly for 1 spell "blade dash" which allows him greater movement.
He is not a pure magus and don't rely on Spell Combat or spellstrike for damage.
He is a twf + natural (secondary) attacks build with magus levels for accuracy and movement.
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Given that he is using an unarmed strike to channel the spellcombat and then making secondary attacks with his natural attacks, why won't that work?
Because of the FAQ and how spellcombat works. Take a look at Natural Spell Combat arcana.
He is not using a natural attack after all to perform spell combat. He is using a monk's unarmed strike which makes his whole body a weapon.
Spell combat/flurry doesn't allow secondary natural attacks. They are special full round actions that don't follow the 'normal' combat rules. The FAQ's clearly state that the ONLY natural weapons that work in spell combat is one linked to a hand/arm AND it's the one used as your main weapon.
As to why he has spell combat and TWF, is that TWF + natural attack are his main weapon, he just uses levels of magus to get Arcane Accuracy for a better to hit (Int mod to all attacks). The spellcombat is reserved mainly for 1 spell "blade dash" which allows him greater movement.
That can work but he gets NO secondary natural weapon attacks when using blade dash.
He is not a pure magus and don't rely on Spell Combat or spellstrike for damage.
He is a twf + natural (secondary) attacks build with magus levels for accuracy and movement.
*shrug* still seems odd but to each their own: As long as he drops the extra/secondary attacks from spell combat it's legal.
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Given that he is using an unarmed strike to channel the spellcombat and then making secondary attacks with his natural attacks, why won't that work?Because of the FAQ and how spellcombat works. Take a look at Natural Spell Combat arcana.
He is not using a natural attack after all to perform spell combat. He is using a monk's unarmed strike which makes his whole body a weapon.Spell combat/flurry doesn't allow secondary natural attacks. They are special full round actions that don't follow the 'normal' combat rules. The FAQ's clearly state that the ONLY natural weapons that work in spell combat is one linked to a hand/arm AND it's the one used as your main weapon.
As to why he has spell combat and TWF, is that TWF + natural attack are his main weapon, he just uses levels of magus to get Arcane Accuracy for a better to hit (Int mod to all attacks). The spellcombat is reserved mainly for 1 spell "blade dash" which allows him greater movement.That can work but he gets NO secondary natural weapon attacks when using blade dash.
*shrug* still seems odd but to each their own: As long as he drops the extra/secondary attacks from spell combat it's legal.He is not a pure magus and don't rely on Spell Combat or spellstrike for damage.
He is a twf + natural (secondary) attacks build with magus levels for accuracy and movement.
Had a long analyze on this with my friend.
Base off the 2 faqs, yes, spell combat's TWF has to be done with the off-hand hands/claw/light melee weapon.
But, nothing in the faqs says you can't have additional natural attacks (at the -5 penalty. which are part of a full-round attack. Spell combat is a full-round attack.)
Yes, there is the Natural Spell Combat, but that only affects some one using a a natural attack as part of the Spell Combat (Aka, no -5 penalty and effectively part of the TWF part.) And you get to deliver the spell as part of a bite/gore etc.
Remember, the first faq already states that a claw or slam (which are natural attacks) are legal for Spell Combat. As long as its part of the hand.
The 2nd faq states that you have to use that hand and not some other appendage as part of the Spell combat aka TWF.
Then you get to make your other primary natural attacks (like bite) that are not part of the hands at the normal -5 penalty for combining primary natural attacks with a weapon in a full round attack.
*The FAQ says you have to use your hand as part of spellcombat and not things like bite. But in this case the bite is not part of spell combat, but penalized natural attacks when making a full round attack with weapons.
So when using spell combat he just effectively loses just 1 or 2 claw attack. (Depending on which combination he uses)
Secane, Spell Combat is a full-round action. Any attacks during that full-round action are part of Spell Combat. The FAQ says that all attacks during Spell Combat must be made with one arm. Hence no additional natural attacks can be performed. This is why the description of Natural Spell Combat spends so much time explaining that it does allow you to make attacks with other limbs.
From the FAQ:
"For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.": attacks OUTSIDE THE ONE USED IN SPELL COMBAT are not allowed, like a tail slap. That would include the second claw [or no free hand to cast], the bite, the tail or the gore.
Add to this the arcana:
"A magus can select this arcana more than once. The bonus on concentration checks does not stack. Each time he selects this arcana, he selects another natural weapon. For example, a magus could select this arcana twice, choosing claw attacks and bite attacks. This would allow him to use a full-round action to make all of his claw attacks with his free hand and all of his bite attacks in addition to casting a spell. This arcana otherwise functions exactly like the spell combat class feature."
If it was as you think, this arcana does NOTHING if taken twice as you think secondary attack are added: spell combat explains everything you're allowed to attack with and nothing else. You get a single spell and attacks with a single weapon and that's all without something like natural spell combat.
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Thanks for the clarifications.
Just an update:
Told the player about this, but he is certain about his view of these 2 faqs.
I'm not his GM, so just warned him that he can expect table variation on this.
Thanks again for the clarification. Wish that this class feature didn't have to resort to 2 FAQs to clarify how it works. (Then again the Magus is one of the first new classes to appear.)
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The problem is not that dex is too powerful, it's that strength has very little support. It has never been given many tricks that are strength based and many of what it has been given aren't good or a pain to pick up.I actually see it as UNDERestimating carrying capacity. You can take 2 traits and a fancy mastercraft backpack and a 7 strength character now has the carry of a 12 strength character without touching feats or magic items. Heck, a DC 15 profession porter check gives you a +2 str bump for carry for 8 hrs and you can take 10 on it. Add to that the fact that bags of holding are only 1000gp away...
What's that from? Is it an unchained thing?
I confess, I'm somewhat confused as to why a particularly low str character would seek employment as a porter anyway, since the job is essentially "Carrying stuff" I'd figure "being able to lift the trunk" would be a real asset in the job.
So that mechanical edge (profession: porter protects you from encumbrance) sort of has a counter-realistic effect- the 18 str person doesn't need it even though they'd be good at the job, but the 7 str person could very much benefit, even if they'd be a poor porter indeed.
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Maybe the people who want to play an agile martial who does not rely on bulging muscles are simply now able to do it
Even though it usually entails high system mastery, which might BTW explain why they are pretty efficient at dealing damage
I still think that someone who wishes to maximize the DPR of a Strength build will likely outclass the Dexterity build
Pray tell how are high Dex non-casting PCs supposed to contribute in combat if they can only deal feeble damage ?
It is quite easy for a strength build to deal higher DPR than a dex build.
That not say you cannot deal "enough" damage with a dex build. It's just saying you can deal more damage with fewer invested resources.
After all, the strength build is not investing skill points, feats, and magic items to both allow usage of an alternate stat and simultaneously compensating for dumping STR.
Some of highest DPR martial builds require an investment in both DEX and STR; using DEX to hit and STR for damage.
I confess, I'm somewhat confused as to why a particularly low str character would seek employment as a porter anyway, since the job is essentially "Carrying stuff" I'd figure "being able to lift the trunk" would be a real asset in the job.
You're looking at it from the POV of the character voluntarily picking it. Some characters start as slaves or the low man on the family totem pole. So a cinderella type that had 'wicked stepsisters' that always force you to carry their stuff or a master that doesn't CARE if you're weak or not [or picked you BECAUSE you're weak] seem in theme.
Or you're ashamed of your weakness and do your best to 'carry your share'... Or out of necessity as you like to travel and can't afford porters... There are plenty of reasons to be low str and take the talent.
So that mechanical edge (profession: porter protects you from encumbrance) sort of has a counter-realistic effect- the 18 str person doesn't need it even though they'd be good at the job, but the 7 str person could very much benefit, even if they'd be a poor porter indeed.
IMO, the stat most important to a porter is constitution. There are going to be packages of all kinds of size and shape so brute strength isn't everything but being able to do it for 8 hours is. Lifting 300 lbs and then needing a nap does not make a great porter.
Most martial builds probably benefit from at least a 13.
Have a concept for an elven rogue two handing the curve blade and using power attack/vital strike.
Strength builds also allows you to be good at combat while focusing resources at other things. It's why I prefer strength investigators to dex investigators. It means I don't have to waste resources (level in Swashbucker or multiple feats) in being able to handle combat, so I can use those resources on bettering myself being an investigator.
I mean the long and short of it is that dex-based melee requires a limited selection of weapons and one of- 3 level Urogue dip, 2 feats, or 1 feat and a +1 equivalent enchantment. Maybe you can swing those things for what you want to do, but most likely unless that is specifically what you are building for, you can't.
I don't know about most people but when I'm coming up with a character idea, "highest DPR" isn't really a consideration. For combat considerations I'd generally start with something like "dual wields dwarven warshields" or "uses outslug style" and work on how to do that best.