Zen Archer Monk-6 / Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor-14...


Advice


Half orc, with Evader and Sacred Tattoo alternative racial features, replacing Intimidating and Ferocity, respectively. Using the half orc's weapon familiarity to access the 2D6 Orc Horn Bow.

Six levels of Zen Archer Monk, grabbing the Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot feats as soon as they are available. Using the Monk's WIS-mod to AC and Zen Archery's WIS-mod to ATK.

After this, go Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor for the Solo Tactics and Sneak Attack, with a 2D6 Orc Horn Bow using Flurry of Bows. I dip Heretic as well as Sanctified Slayer, and now add WIS-mod to Stealth checks. Cunning Initiative gives WIS-mod and DEX-mod to Initiative.

In short, WIS-mod to AC, to ATK rolls, to Stealth checks, and to Initiative. I haven't hashed out the Feats or Traits, or the actual stats because I don't know what the buy in will be as far as points go.

Thoughts?

Will DEX and WIS be able to carry my AC without armor?


For AC, it depends on how high you get your Wisdom and Dex. You won't be spending money on magical armor, so you could pick up something like Bracers of Armor to get actual Armor bonuses that should still allow the Wis to AC bonus.

Also, you could take the Conversion Inquisition for Sanctified Slayer to get Wisdom to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. Then, you could take the Trait "Wisdom in the Flesh" (or something like that); this lets you pick on Strength based skill, and you get to use your Wisdom instead of Strength bonus. (I'm assuming from this build idea that Wisdom will be higher than your Str since Wisdom is doing so much for you.)


I plan on all but dumping STR, INT, and CHA. Relying on a belt or something like that to raise STR for the bonus to the Orc Horn Bow, which is a composite bow.

I will be using the Heretic's Stealth and the Sanctified Slayer's Sneak Attack in conjunction with the Inquisitor Solo Tactics/teamwork feats. The other people in the party, like the TWF-Ranger, will act as my laser sight. Whoever they threaten, I am considered to be flanking. I can shoot into melee without penalties due to the feats I picked up as a Zen Archer Monk.

I have been looking at the Wisdom In The Flesh trait, probably for Acrobatics, even though my DEX will be high, WIS will be higher.

If I take the Extra Ki Feat, do you get an extra Full BAB attack during Flurry of Bows PER Ki point spent? Can I unload all my Ki on my first turn and shoot like 10 times in a row?


how are you flanking people with your bow?


Chess Pwn wrote:
how are you flanking people with your bow?

I will have to track down the teamwork feats I have written down, but I know that there's at least one feat for larger enemies that allows me to be considered flanking regardless of my position if a teammate is threatening the larger enemy. It's called Overwhelm or something like that. Normally both people have to take the feat, but the Inquisitor Solo Tactics allows me to use the feat without my teammates having it.

Pretty sure I seen something similar for regular sized enemies, but I will have to look after work.

Grand Lodge

VoodistMonk wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
how are you flanking people with your bow?

I will have to track down the teamwork feats I have written down, but I know that there's at least one feat for larger enemies that allows me to be considered flanking regardless of my position if a teammate is threatening the larger enemy. It's called Overwhelm or something like that. Normally both people have to take the feat, but the Inquisitor Solo Tactics allows me to use the feat without my teammates having it.

Pretty sure I seen something similar for regular sized enemies, but I will have to look after work.

Quote:

Flanking

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

Flanking is only for melee weapons without some special build.


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The reason ranged weapons do not gain benefit for flanking is because ranged weapons (generally) do not threaten.

The first thing you have to do is find a way to get your Horn Bow to threaten opponents.

The one way I know to do that is with the Snap Shot chain. Regular Snap Shot allows your ranged weapon to threaten at 5', but you still provoke AoO unless you have some other way to avoid them (Snap Shot allows Attacks of Opportunity with your ranged weapon with provoking, though). Improved Snap Shot increases the threat radius of the ranged weapon to a total of 10'.


Saldiven wrote:

The reason ranged weapons do not gain benefit for flanking is because ranged weapons (generally) do not threaten.

The first thing you have to do is find a way to get your Horn Bow to threaten opponents.

The one way I know to do that is with the Snap Shot chain. Regular Snap Shot allows your ranged weapon to threaten at 5', but you still provoke AoO unless you have some other way to avoid them (Snap Shot allows Attacks of Opportunity with your ranged weapon with provoking, though). Improved Snap Shot increases the threat radius of the ranged weapon to a total of 10'.

No, they've even clarified via FAQ that flanking is only melee and that a bow that threatens can help a melee person get flank, but cannot flank themselves.


I stand corrected.

I have to admit I'm not completely up on all the FAQ's. There are just way too many of them.


Zen Archer isn't worth taking 6 levels of.

Stop at Zen Archer 3 and then go into Inquisitor. You basically want the standard archery build after that.

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Improved Precise Shot
Manyshot
Clustered Shots

The rest is kind of up to you.

I also think that Sanctified Slayer is a waste because it's too difficult to get sneak attacks with a bow, which is a big feature of that archetype. The extra feats you can pick up from the archetype is nice, but Zen Archer is already giving you a bonus feats, so it's not really a problem.

And while Studied Target is better in the short term, Judgment is more powerful in the long run.

For extra zest to the build, consider using Chivalry Inquisition for a mount to enjoy the benefits of mounted archery.


I have Snap Shot and the Improved version on my list. Just have to wait for them because I'm multiclassing from one 3/4 BAB class into another 3/4 BAB class. Kind of relying on the Flurry of Bows bonus and an obnoxious WIS score to ATK.

There are teamwork feats that give archers bonuses when someone else is threatening, so even if I can't technically get the flanking condition with my bow until I have Snap Shot, I still will benefit from the Solo Tactics/teamwork stuff from the Inquisitor. And a lot of the teamwork feats that pertain to bows add to the ATK rolls.

Damage will be delivered via the 2D6 composite bow, so I'm not too worried about adding to the damage rolls. Plus I get Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization from being a Zen Archer Monk.


Claxon wrote:

Zen Archer isn't worth taking 6 levels of.

Stop at Zen Archer 3 and then go into Inquisitor. You basically want the standard archery build after that.

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Improved Precise Shot
Manyshot
Clustered Shots

The rest is kind of up to you.

I also think that Sanctified Slayer is a waste because it's too difficult to get sneak attacks with a bow, which is a big feature of that archetype. The extra feats you can pick up from the archetype is nice, but Zen Archer is already giving you a bonus feats, so it's not really a problem.

And while Studied Target is better in the short term, Judgment is more powerful in the long run.

For extra zest to the build, consider using Chivalry Inquisition for a mount to enjoy the benefits of mounted archery.

I'm kinda worried about the stealth and sneak attack stuff being too situational. It just seems like a lot of fun and works really well with the alternate racial features of the half orc.

I've never been an archer, always have played a character with medium or heavy armor. Never played with Sneak Attack. Just wanted to try something new and figured I would make the best archer for within the darkvision of the half orc. Never been a half orc, either.

So a lot of this may not be optimal, but I have found a combination where everything from my AC and ATK, to my Stealth and possibly Acrobatics are all tied into my highest stat.

Giving up the Inquisitor's Judgements for SA damage probably makes me less adaptable, but for right now I really want to play with the Sneak Attack Sanctified Slayer.

I do appreciate your response with viable alternatives. A mounted Archer would be neat. Probably start with a full BAB Cavalier for that build, though.


2d6 is not really enough damage.
2d6 is ~7 damage so someone with a normal bow of 1d8 with 2 str mod is doing the same base damage basically at 6.5. With weapon specialization that's putting you to 9 damage and thus needing someone with 1d8+4.

Point is, just having 2d6 with your only okay accuracy, you'll probably do a lot less damage then you think you'd do.


Weapon damage is never the biggest point of damage in Pathfinder, it just isn't.

The difference between the horn bow and a normal bow is just 2.5 pts of damage (on average). Archery gets the most bang for the buck by have lots of static damage modifiers because you can acquire so many attacks.

Unforuntately, flurry of blows just doesn't actually work that well since the monk (and zen archer) lack any real boots to damage or to hit. The Inquisitor excels at this. The only real reason to take any levels in Zen Archery is so that you can be completely Wis and Str based. Don't dump int and you will have plenty of skills at 6 pts per level.

Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot aren't actually all that great, since with a bow you don't ever actually need to be anywhere near your enemy. You're not the meat shield, that's that other guy. Your job is to be artillery. This means that if everything is going well, the enemy never gets near you. Now, it's nice to not provoke attacks of opportunity if they do manage to slip through the defenses, but IMO it's not worth spending two feats on something that shouldn't happen frequently.

And, for all it's worth the 3 best archers in terms of damage (there was a build competition) were the warpriest, inquisitor, and fighter. I believe the fighter came in 3rd.


I would say ZenArcher4 is worth it. You gain the Ki pool, which allows for +4AC as an immediate action, and to buff yourself with Barkskin through Qingong Archetype. It is also nice for the intermediate levels where you can't get manyshot/rapidshot yet (because of BAB requirements). Instead you can an extra shot on your flurry shot.

Going for Zen6 is tougher proposal for me. You lose a BAB at L5, in return for Manyshot as a bonus feat at 6. But you're also delaying access to Bane further and further.

I play a ZenArcher/Inquisitor, and it works pretty well, though his attack roll needs a bit of help from the (de)buffers. A Perfect Shot Manyshot arrow is consistently painful though.

An archer picks up a lot of damage from Deadly Aim, but at an attack roll penalty. This is a flexible source of damage. I do have a 14Str on him for a bit of extra damage. Combined with bane, he does his job, without being a total powerhouse that a truely minmaxed archer is (My PFS warpriest archer is so consistently deadly I hesitate bringing her out except when scenarios are known to be dangerous.)

I'm not sure I'd go for sanctified slayer, because getting sneak attacks as a ranged character is hard. (You do get improved invis eventually, but at level 14 a lot of people will see through it) And judgement does really help with the attack rolls.


What is the purpose of zen archer?

You can get wis to hit with erastil's blessing. You can make a better character with a single class molthuni arsenal chaplain warpriest. You don't need a high dex with erastil's blessing and you get heavy armor proficiency. So you could do something like S12 D13 C14 I10 W18 CH10


Sander JK, Claxon and Chess Pawn, that is a lot of good information. Thank you.

I'm going to have to do some research, because I might also have to DM this campaign whilst I command this Archer. I want to be good enough to take Measured Response, even if I have to pay lip service to Abadar, so I can speed things up by taking the average damage roll. Thus the Horn Bow. And Measured Response goes well with Sneak Attack, so I had that going for me, as well.

But I need to be able to provide the things a good Archer provides to the party... Otherwise everyone involved would be better off if I was just the DM.


Just be a single classed Inquisitor from the get go. You may miss out on Improved Precise Shot till later levels, but the teamwork feat, Friendly Fire Maneuvers, already does most of what you would want IPS for anyway. This also helps increase your Studied Target bonuses and your sneak attack damage dice, plus the Half Orc Favored Class Bonus for Inquisitors is pretty spiffy.

If you're going all the way to level 20, then you'll definitely want Deific Obedience to Erastile, followed up by Diverse Obedience to get the Evangelist benefit without being an Evangelist. It allows you to add WIS to both attack and damage with longbows within 30 feet of a target. Note that the WIS to attack won't stack with the Zen Archer or the Erastil's blessing feat.


Warpriest Archer is nuts and will require me to actually do some research into. But the maxed out builds I seen just Googling it are gnarly.

I like the Inquisitor quite a bit, as I have already spent some time thinking about playing one. It's like a selfish paladin. I'm quite sure that the Sneak Attack from the Sanctified Slayer replaces the Judgements, which by the sounds of it are a vital part of the Inquisitor's usefulness.

I appreciate your answers.


I do remember that there's an Inquisitor Archetype that recognizes any Cavalier levels you already have, and that's a full BAB class...

I'm disenfranchised with the Zen Archer Monk. I knew I should have stayed with the Fighter Archer and the Horn Bow I was going to have as a heirloom weapon with a +2 to Sunder, called SunderStorm. But I wanted to branch out and try something besides another Fighter build.

Stupid Monks. I only found the Inquisitors after looking for something to use Wisdom from being a stupid Monk. I took the Zen Archer long enough to get Weapon Specialization because I know its usefulness from always getting it as a Fighter. But I was focused on the 14 levels of Inquisitor.

Going full Inquisitor, or grabbing about 4 levels of full BAB Cavalier or Fighter Archer, and then going Inquisitor for the rest is probably going to be the focus of my research and any further questions.

I'm don't think the warpriest Archer is quite for me right yet.


I should also note that you want more Inquisitor levels because it also gets you more spells. You really want Level 6 spells, especially since that's the level you get "Heal," arguably the most effective combat healing option in the game.

As an Archer, 6th Level Spells also means that you get access to Greater Named Bullet, which is one of the most powerful damage boosting spells in the game. Let it be known that Warpriests don't get this spell. If ever you have some buff time and you know what you're up against, this spell should seal the deal.

So yeah, Inquisitor all the way.


Some little bits and pieces:

If you take the Justice Domain you get a +4 to confirm crits that is based on your Wis mod ... so that's 4 or 5 (or 6) times a day (and it works lovely with Perfect Strike) on bows that do x3 damage on crits.

Divine Favour and the half orc Sacred Tattoo go very well with the trait Fate's Favoured (+1 luck = +2 saves, +2/+2 Divine favour, compensates for having chosen two classes without full BAB).

Pick up the trait Magical knack and by 4th lvl Inquis your Divine Favour boost is +3/+3.
10 levels of Inquis gets you access to 4th lvl spells = Quickened spells = Quickened Divine Favour = +lots/lots from a swift action casting of Divine Favour. Suddenly not having full BAB isn't really a problem.

You have to keep track of multiple swift action options but it's a small bit of management of when to activate Judgements and when to Quickened cast. Manage your Free/Swift actions properly and you are rocking.

Quickened Divine Favour plus cast Spiritual Weapon (Long bow) and you are a storm of arrows that can have bane in there too along with Judgements ... You are the rolling rumble of doom dice to your enemies ... if you pick one single enemy and have the Clustered shots feat, and use your perfect strike with flurry ... :) ;)

Shield of Faith also goes up in AC bonuses by caster lvl so if you get caught up close with baddies your 4 lvls of Monk gets you Ki (which means an extra attack in a flurry) for a +4 emergency AC ... the 4 levels of Monk also get a +1 to AC (and +4 on all saves) so you can throw a serious emergency bump into your AC with a 1st level spell and a Ki point. It's not perfect but it will last long enough for you to withdraw or pincushion your opponent.

Btw Inquisitor gets See Invisibility as a 2nd lvl spell.
That spell is gold when your enemies are trying to pull a fast one.

I guess that my basic advice is get 4 lvls in both classes minimum. Then tailor what you take after that to suit whether you want loads of attacks from flurry or access to the Bane Inquis class feature as your game needs.
With 4 lvls in each your saves are rocking, you have knowledges, skills, tracking, orisons for detecting stuff, you're a walking Lie Detector and have a small bump to intimidate to compensate for dumping charisma.
Go 4/4 and then go with the flow of the game after that.


Legoman, that Sacred Tattoo, Fate's Favored, Divine Favour, Magical Knack combination is just good clean fun. I'm going to have to remember that, even if I don't use the Zen Archer Monk.

I do like the Perfect Strike and Clustered Shots combination available for Flurry of Bows and/or Manyshot, though.

Does spending one Ki point get one extra shot for Flurry of Bows? That's it, right? Can I spend two Ki points and get two extra shots? That's not how that works, is it?


Alas tis one ki spent = one effect.

However if you burn 1 ki at 8th lvl your chosen bow will do your monkpunch* damage per arrow. So 1d10. Not a horn bow 2d6 but works on any Bow. Any time they take away your bow ...pick up any other and it does 1d10. Burn another ki and it's an extra attack in a flurry. Chuck in another for emergency +4AC. In one free burn turn they activate. If you have the lvls.

These are all contextual but Orc Hornbows are no-nos in PFS so having an emergency 1d10 bow can help. Rangers/Druids have better spells but this works in a squeeze.

*MonkPuncher should be in the next Community Movie. (JOKE!)

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