Why will assosiated with wisfom but not strengh ?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


I find it weird.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Why would it? Strength is about physical power, not mental.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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Because being mind controlled has nothing to do with how strong you are. Neither does fear or any other mental attack. Strength is actually the least likely Stat for Will saves.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Big dumb brute being easily mind-controlled is a trope.


Will is about willpower, or your brain. Why would being able to bench press 400 pounds mean your brain is strong?


aboyd wrote:
Will is about willpower, or your brain. Why would being able to bench press 400 pounds mean your brain is strong?

If will are connected to brain does that mean int giving a willpower ?

Also some spell are torturing not charm. Using will saves. I think STR will reduce the pain.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Wouldn't that be Con, since it's your body resisting the pain?


Resisting pain would be fort resisting a spell that makes you think your in pain would be will. I could see for some specific spells depending on description pain being will related.


hellatze wrote:
If will are connected to brain does that mean int giving a willpower ?

No, it means wisdom. Wisdom is also a product of your brain.

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hellatze wrote:
aboyd wrote:
Will is about willpower, or your brain. Why would being able to bench press 400 pounds mean your brain is strong?

If will are connected to brain does that mean int giving a willpower ?

Also some spell are torturing not charm. Using will saves. I think STR will reduce the pain.

It has to do with your mind's resilience, the ability to endure, not the intellect. Wisdom is sort of like Con for mental stats.

Silver Crusade

I houserule

Will= cha & wis
Reflex= int & dex
For= str & con


Mondragon wrote:

I houserule

Will= cha & wis
Reflex= int & dex
For= str & con

Thats fair


Why? Because it's been that way for 20 years, with wisdom adding to generic will saves since D&D 3.0. Even before that wisdom was the stat to add a generic magic defense bonus.

So, the answer is tradition.

But aside from that, physical stat don't at all make sense for mental resilience. I could see an argument for making any of the mental stats add to will saves, and have considered house ruling being able to add either Wisdom or Charisma to will saves.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

There was even a 3.0 fest for that. Force of Personality added Cha to Will saves.

I'm pretty sure that one didn't make the transition because it made Sorcerers mentally unassailable and mentally tougher than Wizards. Didn't quite go with decades of extensive training vs I'm a badass because I was born that way

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Steadfast Personality is a pale imitation.

Scarab Sages

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hellatze wrote:
I find it weird.

Where are you from? What is your native language?

I wager this is a language issue: "Strength" can mean many things in English, potentially including "mental strength" or "the ability to endure hardship or resist or fight" - but in D&D/Pathfinder, the word "Strength" has always meant "physical prowess".

Some helpful examples of famous characters with very high Strength:

Heracles (Greek mythology)

The Juggernaut (Marvel Comics)

Superman (DC Comics)

Samson (Jewish mythology)

The Tick (independent comics/TV mythos)

Some of these characters might also have "strong" willpower (using a different definition of the same word), but not necessarily (in fact, some of the ones I mentioned are specifically well-known for "strong body, weak mind").

By contrast, examples of famous characters that would be considered, were they D&D/Pathfinder characters, to have very high Wisdom, and probably "strong" willpower (there's that word again, I can see why you might be confused) as well:

Cpt. Jean-Luc Picard (Star Trek)

Professor Charles Xavier (Marvel Comics)

Ra's al Ghul (DC Comics)

Sherlock Holmes (Victorian literature)

Socrates (historical figure)

The trouble with "Wisdom" is that it's the least well-defined of the 6 D&D stats (and the one I'm least satisfied with): Common sense, judgment, senses, piety, and willpower?!? It's kind of a goulash. It isn't even clear that the Biblical King Solomon would be considered to have a high "Wisdom" - in D&D/Pathfinder terms, he might have had a high Intelligence, and not a particularly high Wisdom at all...so that's another word to be wary of, I'm afraid.

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