Non-Evil Necromancer PCs


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So, say that I wanted to roll up a character that was a necromancer, the point would be to use the undead to fight and thats it. They would be a character that sees Undead as a means to an end rather than something that use to be people. The stipulation here is that they MUST be a non-evil character. I was hoping for good of some sorts but if its just not possible, I would accept some alignment of neutral. The character would be rolled on 15 point buy most likely and their ultimate goal would be to become a lich some day so they could protect something dear to them. I havnt decided if that will be a city/person/or item yet but I want it to be a lich with good intentions. Simply put, the character would be someone who simply adores necromancy magic but doesnt really see it as good or evil, they would view it as simply that, magic. THEIR magic. Their ideology is that the use of the magic is what makes it evil. Their undead arent people, they are just things that they use to aid them and help the lives of those around them. How would I make this character?


pre erata juju oracle?


Sounds like you already have a lot of it figured out! You've got a lovely character concept going, all you've got to do is figure out the details and implement it.

First step is just to check with your GM and make sure they're okay with the concept of using undead in general, since both the thematic and mechanical aspects of it can be problematic in some campaigns.

With that done, it's time to figure out the mechanics. You'll want to steer clear of being a cleric, since they can't maintain a good alignment while casting spells with the [evil] descriptor like animate dead. But there are plenty of other classes that work just fine - your best option is probably an undead master wizard, although a bones oracle is certainly feasible as well. Cast animate dead, use Command Undead, and lead your army of bloody skeletons and fast zombies to your heart's content.

You want to have a good alignment? Write a good alignment on your character sheet. There's literally nothing stopping you. The undead you create will be evil, but they're under your control, so you can simply make them do good things. And if the arbitrary forces of nature decide to shift your alignment to neutral or evil for repeatedly casting spells with the [evil] descriptor, well, turnabout is fair play. Spam spells with the [good] descriptor like protection from evil until your alignment is good again.

Turning into a lich could be a bit more problematic, but all you really need to do is make sure you're well-restrained before you transform and your party members are ready to cram a helm of opposite alignment on your head over and over until you fail your save and turn good again.


Ask your GM to ignore the animating undead = Evil rule, or cast Protection from Evil often.


Avoron wrote:

Sounds like you already have a lot of it figured out! You've got a lovely character concept going, all you've got to do is figure out the details and implement it.

First step is just to check with your GM and make sure they're okay with the concept of using undead in general, since both the thematic and mechanical aspects of it can be problematic in some campaigns.

With that done, it's time to figure out the mechanics. You'll want to steer clear of being a cleric, since they can't maintain a good alignment while casting spells with the [evil] descriptor like animate dead. But there are plenty of other classes that work just fine - your best option is probably an undead master wizard, although a bones oracle is certainly feasible as well. Cast animate dead, use Command Undead, and lead your army of bloody skeletons and fast zombies to your heart's content.

You want to have a good alignment? Write a good alignment on your character sheet. There's literally nothing stopping you. The undead you create will be evil, but they're under your control, so you can simply make them do good things. And if the arbitrary forces of nature decide to shift your alignment to neutral or evil for repeatedly casting spells with the [evil] descriptor, well, turnabout is fair play. Spam spells with the [good] descriptor like protection from evil until your alignment is good again.

Turning into a lich could be a bit more problematic, but all you really need to do is make sure you're well-restrained before you transform and your party members are ready to cram a helm of opposite alignment on your head over and over until you fail your save and turn good again.

Ive considered the Bones and juju oracle though I was hoping there might be a way to achieve this with say a cleric (as you can technically use the undead lord archetype with the nuetral alignment as there is a neutral god that has the death domain) or a wizard. Though Id like not to be evil which is something forced on you with the undead master archetype. Ill also note the alignment changing helmet for later incase it comes in handy. My most massive issue as it stands now is point buy 15 points as I dont know where my stats should go and which class this is doable on the easiest. Im sure my gm will have little problem with this as ironically, he has always loved the idea of a necromancer adventurer but I ban it in all games I gm because inherent evil and i ban evil characters because they bog down our parties when they have been attempted at our table.


a cha based caster would probably be best since you plan on becoming undead, so to my knowledge for non evil things that's summoner, oracle, bard, paladin, bloodrager, sorcerer, eldritch scion magus, paladin, bloodrager and summoner are out no access to the spells you want which leaves oracle, magus, sorcerer and bard with low point buy sorcerer is probably out as you will want to actually wear armor to not die and magus will also be out since you wont want to be in melee so its down to oracle and bard you can get a stat array of 7,14,12,10,12,16 with 15 points, not great but its 15 points so you wont really be able to have much better put all level up points into cha and by level 11 you should be a lich and be much more durable


Lady-J wrote:
a cha based caster would probably be best since you plan on becoming undead, so to my knowledge for non evil things that's summoner, oracle, bard, paladin, bloodrager, sorcerer, eldritch scion magus, paladin, bloodrager and summoner are out no access to the spells you want which leaves oracle, magus, sorcerer and bard with low point buy sorcerer is probably out as you will want to actually wear armor to not die and magus will also be out since you wont want to be in melee so its down to oracle and bard you can get a stat array of 7,14,12,10,12,16 with 15 points, not great but its 15 points so you wont really be able to have much better put all level up points into cha and by level 11 you should be a lich and be much more durable

I suppose thats fair....I want looking to play an Oracle....but I guess if thats what I have to do....its not impossible....Its not that Oracles are bad or anything. I just dont really care for Oracles to be honest, haha.

Then, My array could look much like
7 str
12 dex
14 con
10 int
12 wis
16 cha
much like you suggested, though Id rather see 14 in my constitution than in my dex as even though dex is important, I need to survive.

Though I cant help but be confused, you said Id like to avoid being a sorceress because they cant wear armor and i dont wanna die. I dont feel like that would be an issue with them though, Id hopefully have a bunch of undead minions to be infront of me at all times so i dont have to worry about something being close enough to hit me.


Ooh, I didn't catch the alignment restriction on the undead master, so that's out. And while undead lord works fine with neutral alignment, it still doesn't let you cast [evil] spells with a good alignment, and a channeling cleric is pretty MAD for 15 point buy anyway.

So it looks like your best bet is probably bones oracle, which has no alignment restrictions whatsoever. It can work great on a low point buy, as all you really need is Charisma, plus a moderate Dex and Con to avoid dying before you can become an undead. If you go half-elf, aasimar, or ifrit you can use the favored class bonus to boost your effective oracle level for the undead servitude revelation, allowing you to command more HD of undead.

Oh, and best of all you could use this perfectly fitting oracle's curse from the Horror Realms campaign setting:

Lich:
Every living spellcaster hides a secret in their flesh—a unique, personalized set of conditions that, when all are fulfilled in the correct order, can trigger the transformation into a lich. Normally, one must expend years and tens of thousands of gold pieces to research this deeply personalized method of attaining immortality. Yet, in a rare few cases, chance and ill fortune can conspire against an unsuspecting spellcaster. You have unknowingly) fulfilled most (but not all) of the ritualistic components to achieve lichdom. You have yet to turn into an undead creature, but you are close.

You take damage from positive energy and heal from negative energy as if you were undead.

At 5th level, add control undead to your list of 2nd-level oracle spells known. At 10th level, add undead anatomy I to your list of 3rd-level oracle spells known and undead anatomy II to your list of 5th-level oracle spells known. At 15th level, you are immune to death effects.

Grand Lodge

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You could do what I did and make an impostor necromancer.

Undead Bloodline Sorcerer who focuses on illusion magic to make everyone think they are a necromancer, while slowly actually becoming undead themselves.


ViConstantine wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
a cha based caster would probably be best since you plan on becoming undead, so to my knowledge for non evil things that's summoner, oracle, bard, paladin, bloodrager, sorcerer, eldritch scion magus, paladin, bloodrager and summoner are out no access to the spells you want which leaves oracle, magus, sorcerer and bard with low point buy sorcerer is probably out as you will want to actually wear armor to not die and magus will also be out since you wont want to be in melee so its down to oracle and bard you can get a stat array of 7,14,12,10,12,16 with 15 points, not great but its 15 points so you wont really be able to have much better put all level up points into cha and by level 11 you should be a lich and be much more durable

I suppose thats fair....I want looking to play an Oracle....but I guess if thats what I have to do....its not impossible....Its not that Oracles are bad or anything. I just dont really care for Oracles to be honest, haha.

Then, My array could look much like
7 str
12 dex
14 con
10 int
12 wis
16 cha
much like you suggested, though Id rather see 14 in my constitution than in my dex as even though dex is important, I need to survive.

Though I cant help but be confused, you said Id like to avoid being a sorceress because they cant wear armor and i dont wanna die. I dont feel like that would be an issue with them though, Id hopefully have a bunch of undead minions to be infront of me at all times so i dont have to worry about something being close enough to hit me.

oh btw the oracle has a curse called lich curse wich while many of its abilities will overlap with the actual lich abilities it should make it easier for you to actually become a lich(if you dm is on board with the idea) also the wanting to wear armor part is for the beginning before you even have a chance at making any undead minions having a +6 armor bonus to ac from a breast plate will be handy


well

not all liches are evil, 99.9999% are though.

I never saw the use of animate dead as evil.. great undeadtype spells on the other hand...

you will reek of evil as a lich regardless of your alignment.

arcane armor training

might be worth looking into


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Agents of Evil has a very ironically good feat for this. Wretched Curator. After completing one evil ritual, animate dead is no longer evil for you to cast even by RAW. Possibly because it doesn't look so evil by comparison. At some tables you gotta do what you gotta do


Steelfiredragon wrote:
you will reek of evil as a lich regardless of your alignment.

That was true in 3.5e but not in Pathfinder. A good lich will have a massively strong Good Aura in Pathfinder if you follow the rules for the Detect Alignment spells.


Avoron wrote:

First step is just to check with your GM and make sure they're okay with the concept of using undead in general, since both the thematic and mechanical aspects of it can be problematic in some campaigns.

You may also want to check with the other players. Animating dead just isn't pleasant. I can't imagine any party my group's ever played putting up with it, regardless of the necromancer's alignment.


Avoron wrote:

Ooh, I didn't catch the alignment restriction on the undead master, so that's out. And while undead lord works fine with neutral alignment, it still doesn't let you cast [evil] spells with a good alignment, and a channeling cleric is pretty MAD for 15 point buy anyway.

So it looks like your best bet is probably bones oracle, which has no alignment restrictions whatsoever. It can work great on a low point buy, as all you really need is Charisma, plus a moderate Dex and Con to avoid dying before you can become an undead. If you go half-elf, aasimar, or ifrit you can use the favored class bonus to boost your effective oracle level for the undead servitude revelation, allowing you to command more HD of undead.

Oh, and best of all you could use this perfectly fitting oracle's curse from the Horror Realms campaign setting:
** spoiler omitted **

I think I will pick up the suggested curse, its sounds absolutely perfect for what I was wanting. So Oracle with the stat array that I mentioned earlier. All I need is maybe 10 or so levels of feats figured out and I think we are golden! I cant say i can become a lich in 10 levels but its become my magic number as our campaigns tend to end out of the blue because we just stop playing for short periods of time at random. So i just need feats to make it work and a race!

Liberty's Edge

Folks interested in playing a non evil necromancer might want to check out the White Necromancer class. The most current, up to date version of the class can be found in the recently released New Paths Compendium: Expanded Edition hardcover (which also includes 3 White Necromancer archetypes).

You can read reviews of the class when it first came out HERE


Moonclanger wrote:
You may also want to check with the other players. Animating dead just isn't pleasant. I can't imagine any party my group's ever played putting up with it, regardless of the necromancer's alignment.

Animating dead just isn't pleasant, and stabbing people to death or burning them alive... is? To be honest, if your standard of aesthetic acceptability is based on what is or is not "pleasant," Pathfinder probably isn't the game for you to begin with.

ViConstantine wrote:
So i just need feats to make it work and a race!

Nice! With the bones or juju mystery and the lich curse, this build is really shaping up. For race I'd probably suggest agathion-blooded or azata-blooded aasimar. The stat bonuses are great for an oracle on low point buy, they give you that favored class bonus for boosting your undead servitude revelation, and they could help emphasize the whole "wielding undead for the cause of good" thing.

Honestly, there aren't a whole lot of feats you need to enhance your undead minions. And channeling feats aren't as useful to you as they would be for a cleric, since you can only channel energy to Command Undead. So really, the question you should be asking is: what do you want to do besides necromancy? While your undead are swarming over the battlefield, how will you be spending your actions in combat? Buffing? Debuffing? Condition removal? Battlefield control? The possibilities are endless.


Marc Radle wrote:

Folks interested in playing a non evil necromancer might want to check out the White Necromancer class. The most current, up to date version of the class can be found in the recently released New Paths Compendium: Expanded Edition hardcover (which also includes 3 White Necromancer archetypes).

You can read reviews of the class when it first came out HERE

I cant use it, 3rd party stuff has been banned with the power of a thousand suns at my table for years. We all have a pretty seething hatred for it because everytime we seem to allow it someone ends up broken as hell. But thank you for the suggestion regardless as you took the time to give links and etc.


While this might not be what you're looking for, remember not all necromancy involves undead. A wizard using touch of fatigue, chill touch, ray of enfeeblement, ghoul touch, blindness/deafness, and vampiric touch can raise (un)holy hell without animating a thing or casting spells with an evil descriptor.

Liberty's Edge

ViConstantine wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

Folks interested in playing a non evil necromancer might want to check out the White Necromancer class. The most current, up to date version of the class can be found in the recently released New Paths Compendium: Expanded Edition hardcover (which also includes 3 White Necromancer archetypes).

You can read reviews of the class when it first came out HERE

I cant use it, 3rd party stuff has been banned with the power of a thousand suns at my table for years. We all have a pretty seething hatred for it because everytime we seem to allow it someone ends up broken as hell. But thank you for the suggestion regardless as you took the time to give links and etc.

No problem!

Sorry to hear that though, as all Third Party stuff is definitely NOT created equal - some of the bigger Third Party companies are literally made up by people that currently also work extensively with Paizo, do freelance writing, editing, and design for Paizo, Wizards etc, and or have worked for Paizo, Wizards, TSR etc.

No worries though! Everyone is entitled to make thier own calls! For those folks that allow select Third Party material, I think the White Necromancer class, and the New Paths Compendium: Expanded Edition in general is well worth checking out! :)

Back on topic, best of luck with your character! Sounds like you have some good ideas in this thread to work with!


Avoron wrote:
Moonclanger wrote:
You may also want to check with the other players. Animating dead just isn't pleasant. I can't imagine any party my group's ever played putting up with it, regardless of the necromancer's alignment.
Animating dead just isn't pleasant, and stabbing people to death or burning them alive... is?

Swords and fireballs don't come with the evil descriptor. The thread's about a "non-evil necromancer". For my money that means one who doesn't animate dead. If VC's fellow players have a similar outlook it might cause problems. If he's unsure it's probably worth having a word with them before the game begins.


Most people do things that could be described as evil sometimes, even if they're good people.


If you're just interested in any means of stalwart immortality, the Living Monolith PrC could be an effective alternative.


Moonclanger wrote:
Avoron wrote:
Moonclanger wrote:
You may also want to check with the other players. Animating dead just isn't pleasant. I can't imagine any party my group's ever played putting up with it, regardless of the necromancer's alignment.
Animating dead just isn't pleasant, and stabbing people to death or burning them alive... is?
Swords and fireballs don't come with the evil descriptor. The thread's about a "non-evil necromancer". For my money that means one who doesn't animate dead. If VC's fellow players have a similar outlook it might cause problems. If he's unsure it's probably worth having a word with them before the game begins.

Then you would lose your money. Casting animate dead doesn't make a character evil any more than casting protection from evil makes a character good.

If the OP wants to check in with their fellow players for courtesy's sake, they can by all means do so. Like I said, managing undead minions can create mechanical difficulties that bog the game down, and if the GM isn't able to handle them the other players have every right to complain. But if they're complaining because your tactics aren't "pleasant" enough for their game full of longswords and fireballs? To put it bluntly, that's really none of their business.


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Casting a spell with an alignment descriptor is an act of that alignment, however.

This was even quantified in Horror Adventures, where it states that while context matters, casting an Evil spell is an Evil act, and repeated castings will affect your alignment even if you use the Evil spell for a Good purpose. The example given being raising Undead to protect the defenseless.

It recommends that two castings of an Evil spell will turn a Good character Neutral, and three will turn a Neutral character Evil.

Though if you are in PFS, there are different rules for that here.


LeMoineNoir wrote:

Casting a spell with an alignment descriptor is an act of that alignment, however.

This was even quantified in Horror Adventures, where it states that while context matters, casting an Evil spell is an Evil act, and repeated castings will affect your alignment even if you use the Evil spell for a Good purpose. The example given being raising Undead to protect the defenseless.

It recommends that two castings of an Evil spell will turn a Good character Neutral, and three will turn a Neutral character Evil.

Though if you are in PFS, there are different rules for that here.

Exactly, that's why you alternate your castings of animate dead with castings of protection from evil. If spells with the [evil] descriptor turn you evil, then spells with the [good] descriptor will turn you good.


ViConstantine wrote:
I cant use it, 3rd party stuff has been banned with the power of a thousand suns at my table for years. We all have a pretty seething hatred for it because everytime we seem to allow it someone ends up broken as hell. But thank you for the suggestion regardless as you took the time to give links and etc.

If you are unwilling or unable to use third party material or homebrew up a solution then you have very, very few options.


Coidzor wrote:
ViConstantine wrote:
I cant use it, 3rd party stuff has been banned with the power of a thousand suns at my table for years. We all have a pretty seething hatred for it because everytime we seem to allow it someone ends up broken as hell. But thank you for the suggestion regardless as you took the time to give links and etc.
If you are unwilling or unable to use third party material or homebrew up a solution then you have very, very few options.

Actually, as it stands, There is a cleric, sorcerer, wizard, and two kinds of oracles off the top of my head....how is that very few options?


Moonclanger wrote:
Avoron wrote:
Moonclanger wrote:
You may also want to check with the other players. Animating dead just isn't pleasant. I can't imagine any party my group's ever played putting up with it, regardless of the necromancer's alignment.
Animating dead just isn't pleasant, and stabbing people to death or burning them alive... is?

Swords and fireballs don't come with the evil descriptor. The thread's about a "non-evil necromancer". For my money that means one who doesn't animate dead. If VC's fellow players have a similar outlook it might cause problems. If he's unsure it's probably worth having a word with them before the game begins.

pre erata juju oracle made all necromancy they did not evil :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ViConstantine wrote:
Im sure my gm will have little problem with this as ironically, he has always loved the idea of a necromancer adventurer but I ban it in all games I gm because inherent evil and i ban evil characters because they bog down our parties when they have been attempted at our table.

That is the real crux of the matter. Just design your character as you wish to play him and let him be Evil. Since he is your own character, you should be able to steer clear of behaviours that bog down the party.


I am currently GMing a Carrion Crown campaign with a good aligned gnome undead bloodline necromancer. She was tainted by all the necromantic energy in the area and is using undead to stop the main villans from making it worse. This is obviously house ruling but I as the GM care far more about the rollplay reasoning behind casting necromantic spells rather than the fit all rules of the spell having the evil descriptor. Obviously Paizo needs to include things like this in the base system but it sounds like your GM may be willing to look at it the same way. It does make the party inquisitor VERY nervous around her, and he is trying to convince the party she is going down a dark path and it will corrupt her which has lead to some great rollplay moments!


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Necromancer Paladin wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:
you will reek of evil as a lich regardless of your alignment.
That was true in 3.5e but not in Pathfinder. A good lich will have a massively strong Good Aura in Pathfinder if you follow the rules for the Detect Alignment spells.

"'Lich' is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery....

Alignment: Any evil."

Source


quibblemuch wrote:

"'Lich' is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery....

Alignment: Any evil."

They're saying that once your alignment changes back to good you'll have a strong good aura:

Necromancer Paladin wrote:
A good lich will have a massively strong Good Aura in Pathfinder if you follow the rules for the Detect Alignment spells.

Emphasis mine. You'll only have an evil aura as long as you're evil, which won't be very long.


Is there a rule for removing part of a creature template while keeping the rest?


quibblemuch wrote:
Is there a rule for removing part of a creature template while keeping the rest?

Yep!

Changing Alignment wrote:
If a character wants to change his alignment, let him


LeMoineNoir wrote:

Casting a spell with an alignment descriptor is an act of that alignment, however.

This was even quantified in Horror Adventures, where it states that while context matters, casting an Evil spell is an Evil act, and repeated castings will affect your alignment even if you use the Evil spell for a Good purpose. The example given being raising Undead to protect the defenseless.

It recommends that two castings of an Evil spell will turn a Good character Neutral, and three will turn a Neutral character Evil.

Though if you are in PFS, there are different rules for that here.

I believe you are correct.

IIRC, with the exception of ghosts, undead are evil in Pathfinder (or at least in Golarion).

There was a non-evil vampire in Kaer Maga, but that was under the 3.5 rules. Even he's evil in Pathfinder.

Creating evil creatures is evil, even if you mean well.

You could be a non-evil necromancer, but you couldn't create undead. That is violating their souls.

... at least in any campaign I would run.


Avoron wrote:
quibblemuch wrote:
Is there a rule for removing part of a creature template while keeping the rest?

Yep!

Changing Alignment wrote:
If a character wants to change his alignment, let him

There's also:

"The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters—they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable."

Source


Makes since. Since a lich is neither unintelligent nor an outsider, they should be able to change their alignment like any other character. And if that causes any difficulty, they can always fall back on the protection from evil trick, or use a helm of opposite alignment as a last resort.

Will.Spencer wrote:
IIRC, with the exception of ghosts, undead are evil in Pathfinder (or at least in Golarion).

There are other exceptions, ranging from deathwebs to ectoplasmic creatures.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Avoron wrote:

Makes since. Since a lich is neither unintelligent nor an outsider, they should be able to change their alignment like any other character. And if that causes any difficulty, they can always fall back of the protection from evil trick, or use a helm of opposite alignment as a last resort.

Will.Spencer wrote:
IIRC, with the exception of ghosts, undead are evil in Pathfinder (or at least in Golarion).
There are other exceptions, ranging from deathwebs to ectoplasmic creatures.

Alignment does not really match the descriptive text there and is in fact in contradiction to the template for the ectoplasmic creature

Helm of Opposite Alignment is a cursed item. An Evil creature would not want to wear it anymore than a Good creature would

What is so bad about being Evil anyway ?


The Raven Black wrote:
What is so bad about being Evil anyway ?

Getting smote.

Seriously, that s@++ hurts. Like, a lot. And not just your feelings get hurt either. But, like, the crunchy parts too.


The Raven Black wrote:
Alignment does not really match the descriptive text there and is in fact in contradiction to the template for the ectoplasmic creature

Not really. They wouldn't have put "usually chaotic evil" if there weren't exceptions, and the sample ectoplasmic human in Bestiary 4 is an example of exactly that.

The Raven Black wrote:
Helm of Opposite Alignment is a cursed item. An Evil creature would not want to wear it anymore than a Good creature would

True, and that's why I mentioned back here that you make sure you're well-restrained before you transform, and have your party members ready to cram the helm onto your head over and over again until you fail the save.

And just to be clear, by "well-restrained" I mean at minimum bound, gagged, blinded, stripped of all gear, buried up to your neck in cement, and placed within an area of source severance.


I cant be the only one that has heard of the pathfinder "good lich" right? I read a while back that in one of the books it details a way to become a good lich or atleast there being a good aligned lich. That said. Necromancy that doesnt raise or control the dead is just more magic that pretends its necromancy. That said, I dont want to do anything that doesnt have to do with using the undead for good reasons. I just need a class and feats that help me control the undead but dont force me to be evil.


Becoming a lich involves the sacrifice of a bunch of innocents as a general rule. I think the non-evil options are from D&D.

My recommendation is a Gravewalker Witch, allowing spammable undead control spells so that you can use undead you find lying around. I think there’s a Mesmerist archetype that can control them, too? Creating undead is evil, full stop. Instead of doing something yourself or hiring people, you’re desecrating some soul stuff and anchoring energies anithical to life in the Material Plane. (Or something along those lines.) That, or get GM permission.


ViConstantine wrote:
I cant be the only one that has heard of the pathfinder "good lich" right?

Forgotten Realms had the baelnorn lich for elves. But that's pre-Pathfinder. I can't think of an example of a Pathfinder "good lich".


QuidEst wrote:

Becoming a lich involves the sacrifice of a bunch of innocents as a general rule. I think the non-evil options are from D&D.

My recommendation is a Gravewalker Witch, allowing spammable undead control spells so that you can use undead you find lying around. I think there’s a Mesmerist archetype that can control them, too? Creating undead is evil, full stop. Instead of doing something yourself or hiring people, you’re desecrating some soul stuff and anchoring energies anithical to life in the Material Plane. (Or something along those lines.) That, or get GM permission.

Again it looks like everyone is missing my point completely. The fact that the spells are evil....DOES NOT MATTER. Im looking for a class and feats that do not REQUIRE AS PREREQUISITE that I be playing a character of evil alignment. I can handle the "evil" descriptor of spells on my own as its really not a problem with good enough roleplay, gm to player conversation and spamming of good aligned spells between bouts of evil casting.

Acquisitives

An Occultist with the Necromancy Implement has multiple methods of creating undead minions that don't involve the Evil descriptor.

http://archivesofnethys.com/OccultistImplementsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Necrom ancy


QuidEst wrote:
Creating undead is evil, full stop. Instead of doing something yourself or hiring people, you’re desecrating some soul stuff

Nope, not a thing. Creating unintelligent undead involves no soul-desecrating whatsoever:

PathfinderWiki wrote:
Unintelligent undead, for instance, are shells of creatures who formerly possessed souls; however, these undead do not have souls of their own, and are little more than automatons animated by negative energy.
QuidEst wrote:
and anchoring energies anithical to life in the Material Plane

And... so? Negative energy isn't inherently evil. It's often destructive, sure, but so are acid and cold and electricity and fire and sonic. So is positive energy, for that matter, once you get enough of it. Casting inflict light wounds isn't an evil act any more than casting fireball is.

ViConstantine wrote:
Again it looks like everyone is missing my point completely. The fact that the spells are evil....DOES NOT MATTER. Im looking for a class and feats that do not REQUIRE AS PREREQUISITE that I be playing a character of evil alignment. I can handle the "evil" descriptor of spells on my own as its really not a problem with good enough roleplay, gm to player conversation and spamming of good aligned spells between bouts of evil casting.

Lovely, it's nice to hear you've got it all sorted out. So for class you're thinking either bones or juju oracle with the lich curse... Anything in particular you're looking for in feat suggestions? Like I said, the undead horde thing pretty much works itself out, so if you'd like you've got room to become really good at something else as well.


ViConstantine wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Becoming a lich involves the sacrifice of a bunch of innocents as a general rule. I think the non-evil options are from D&D.

My recommendation is a Gravewalker Witch, allowing spammable undead control spells so that you can use undead you find lying around. I think there’s a Mesmerist archetype that can control them, too? Creating undead is evil, full stop. Instead of doing something yourself or hiring people, you’re desecrating some soul stuff and anchoring energies anithical to life in the Material Plane. (Or something along those lines.) That, or get GM permission.

Again it looks like everyone is missing my point completely. The fact that the spells are evil....DOES NOT MATTER. Im looking for a class and feats that do not REQUIRE AS PREREQUISITE that I be playing a character of evil alignment. I can handle the "evil" descriptor of spells on my own as its really not a problem with good enough roleplay, gm to player conversation and spamming of good aligned spells between bouts of evil casting.

Sorry, did more skimming than I should have. That was my bad.


Avoron wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
and anchoring energies anithical to life in the Material Plane
And... so? Negative energy isn't inherently evil. It's often destructive, sure, but so are acid and cold and electricity and fire and sonic. So is positive energy, for that matter, once you get enough of it.

I firmly believe that Positive energy is inherently more unstable and destructive than negative energy. Undead last indefinitely on both the material plane and the negative plane, but positive-powered life needs extra sustenance and will die quickly on the positive plane. As far as I can tell, Holy and Unholy water are effectively stored Alignment Channels to harm. Unholy water and its negative energy carrier have no collateral, but Holy water hurts both the intended Outsider targets and any negative-affinity beings it contacts.


Avoron wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Creating undead is evil, full stop. Instead of doing something yourself or hiring people, you’re desecrating some soul stuff

Nope, not a thing. Creating unintelligent undead involves no soul-desecrating whatsoever:

PathfinderWiki wrote:
Unintelligent undead, for instance, are shells of creatures who formerly possessed souls; however, these undead do not have souls of their own, and are little more than automatons animated by negative energy.

Just because the mindless undead does not contain a soul, and books seem to go back and forth as to whether they have one, shreds of one, or none at all, doesn't mean the person's soul is unaffected. A person whose body has become undead, even a mindless one, cannot move into the afterlife or become raised. It also effectively pulls them out of the line to be judged by Pharasma, progressing towards the end of the world. Though none of this matters in a game outside of the Golarian setting or at the DM's discretion.

I think pre-errata Juju is still one of the better options for creating undead. They can animate more than most other necromancers, and their Zombies and Juju Zombies are raised with maximum possible hitpoints.

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