Non-Evil Necromancer PCs

[Claxon]

ViConstantine wrote:

So, say that I wanted to roll up a character that was a necromancer, the point would be to use the undead to fight and thats it. They would be a character that sees Undead as a means to an end rather than something that use to be people. The stipulation here is that they MUST be a non-evil character. I was hoping for good of some sorts but if its just not possible, I would accept some alignment of neutral. The character would be rolled on 15 point buy most likely and their ultimate goal would be to become a lich some day so they could protect something dear to them. I havnt decided if that will be a city/person/or item yet but I want it to be a lich with good intentions. Simply put, the character would be someone who simply adores necromancy magic but doesnt really see it as good or evil, they would view it as simply that, magic. THEIR magic. Their ideology is that the use of the magic is what makes it evil. Their undead arent people, they are just things that they use to aid them and help the lives of those around them. How would I make this character?

Yeah...you're going to have to get your GM on-board because as far as I'm aware nothing allows for the creation of undead to not be evil anymore.

[ViConstantine]

Lovely, it's nice to hear you've got it all sorted out. So for class you're thinking either bones or juju oracle with the lich curse... Anything in particular you're looking for in feat suggestions? Like I said, the undead horde thing pretty much works itself out, so if you'd like you've got room to become really good at something else as well.

We will be playing post errata as all of our information must be up to date when we create characters. That said, I dont know how the juju oracle stands up to the current bones after its been worked a little. My feats I would need up to about 10th level most likely and if we are playing an oracle then my idea was to use my feats to pump the amount of undead I can make/command and how powerful I can make them. Any other slots for feats I have, I wanted to poor toward personal survivability and most importantly of all......Persuasion. See, my goal is to use her high Persuasion skill to convince people that the Undead arent "evil" or "dangerous" the way that im using them. And as my character believes this themselves, there is no need for a bluff check as they dont think they are lying.

[The Raven Black]

What will happen when one of the unintelligent undead escapes your Necromancer's control and kills innocent people ? For example when your PC dies ?

[ViConstantine]

The Raven Black wrote:

What will happen when one of the unintelligent undead escapes your Necromancer's control and kills innocent people ? For example when your PC dies ?

Well obviously if my character dies its no longer their problem? The point will be to avoid it? Dont shit on my fun here guy.

[thorn767]

the necromancer I had. was a undead lord cleric, who's intire PC base was off of why have the living fight the dead and die pointless death, when you can have the dead fight the dead and have no loss of life. so she would go around rezing animal and non intelligent Creatures and using them as her undead minons. and with her being a cleric she could still cast spells and play support while her undead was DPR.

[Lady-J]

anyone happen to have a link to pre erata juju oracle?

[LeMoineNoir]

Serpent's Skull version, for the most part. It's missing a line where Spirit Vessels makes Mindless Undead you raise True Neutral, and Intelligent Undead you raise are your alignment.

The newer Faiths and Philosophies version

Unless you plan on never approaching your maximum allowed number of undead HD, you'll still want to plan on how to dispose of your minions when you want to raise something that would strain your allowed limit. Just destroying them is probably the simplest.

[Lady-J]

thx

[Avoron]

Okay, since the Faiths and Philosophies juju oracle doesn't even give you Command Undead, if you're limited to that you'll definitely want to stick with bones.

As for feats, you've got plenty of good options. One of the best ways to ensure both survivability and effectiveness is to make sure you go first, so you might want to grab Improved Initiative and/or Noble Scion of War, plus maybe a trait to boost initiative as well. Your diplomacy should be in pretty good shape already if you keep it at max ranks, seeing as it's a class skill and is based on your best ability score, but you could always boost it further with feats like Skill Focus and magic items like a circlet of persuasion. If you end up going with azata-born aasimar like I mentioned, not only do you get great stats and the favored class bonus, but you also get a racial bonus to diplomacy checks. Oh, and it also opens up a few fun racial feats like Angelic Blood and Angel Wings.

The bones mystery has some decent revelation options, so you might want to take Extra Revelation once or twice. There are even some revelations that could be worth grabbing Abundant Revelations for, like raise the dead or spirit walk. Speaking of oracle class features, you could always grab an archetype to get some complementary abilities. Spirit guide is always handy, but in this case I'd actually suggest dual-cursed: haunted or possessed could go nicely with lich, and despite its name the misfortune revelation would be excellent for helping out your undead minions.

As for increasing the amount of dead you can command, there's not much that can boost the Command Undead feat besides the elf/aasimar favored class bonus I mentioned. There is the Undead Master feat, but it's really not as useful as it looks at first glance. It only increases the HD of undead you can create with a single casting, not the total HD you can control - which is the real limiting factor anyway.

Boosting animate dead is much more straightforward: all you've got to do is pump your caster level. This means you'll want feats like Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, and maybe even Bloatmage Initiate. You can also grab a trait that boosts your caster level with a certain spell, like Gifted Adept, Outlander (Missionary), Vile Domain, or Secret of the Impossible Kingdom. Spell Perfection might be an option on the distant horizon if you've got some good uses for metamagic feats. Once you can afford them you can get a couple items to boost your caster level further, like an alter of nethys, a bead of karma, and an orange prism ioun stone. Oh, and death knell on a mindless centipede gives another little boost.

As for making all these undead more powerful, there's one really nice option that you might want to take a look at: Charnel Soldiers. It's a lovely little feat from Cohorts and Companions that gives any undead you create or control a bonus teamwork feat you know. And there's nothing indicating the two benefits don't stack, so if you create a skeleton or zombie with animate dead and then control it with Command Undead you could hand out two different teamwork feats. There's also nothing stopping you from handing out different feats to different undead, and it even looks like you could change your choice every time you reuse Command Undead on them - ordering them to fail their saves, of course.

And wow, are there a lot of fun options to choose between. Bonded Mind to make ordering them a breeze. Lookout to never be surprised again. Trade Initiative to always go first. Escape Route so you don't have to worry about carefully maneuvering them into position. Shake It Off to give a lovely save bonus. Stealth Synergy to make your horde as silent as the night. You could keep a bodyguard or two around, maybe with Intercept Charge so you'll never get lanced or pounced, maybe with Extend the Bulwark for a constant +5 circumstance bonus to AC that stacks with pretty much everything.

It's unclear whether the undead need to meet the prerequisites for these feats themselves, but if not, you've got some even better options. Options like Take the Hit so your minions can soak up the damage from otherwise deadly attacks. Or for the ultimate irony, Lastwall Phalanx to give your minions a wonderful bonus to AC and saves against evil creatures.

So many choices! So few feats.

[Dastis]

Wretched Curator Feat or Occultist class @Claxon

[Coidzor]

The Raven Black wrote:

What will happen when one of the unintelligent undead escapes your Necromancer's control and kills innocent people ? For example when your PC dies ?

Presumably they get destroyed by whatever killed you or deliberately released or controlled by what you were fighting, so that the moral culpability is shared if not shifted entirely.

Or they're trapped in a dungeon where they're the kind of environmental hazard that adventurers should expect and be prepared to deal with when dungeon delving.

Adventurers generally don't die in bed, and when they do die in bed, they either set their affairs in order or they stick a bunch of other adventurers with setting their affairs in order, possibly as a starting quest.

QuidEst wrote:

Becoming a lich involves the sacrifice of a bunch of innocents as a general rule. I think the non-evil options are from D&D.

That's not a general rule, that occult ritual is actually a very, very, very specific rule.

[Decimus Drake]

If your GM is happy to do away with silly alignment rules then this would need, to some degree, be translated to whatever setting you're playing in. Make sure the other players understand that necromancy and animating the dead are not intrinsically evil and may even be socially acceptable.

So for example, increase the number of places where animating the undead is socially (or at least legally) acceptable; different places could have different laws of varying strictness e.g. once city might just have a loosely enforced rule of keep your dead under controll. Another city might require necromancers to purchase a permit before they can bring undead into the city. A third city might strictly regulate who can or can't be made into undead; convicted criminals and commoners who either sell the rights to their corpse prior to death or are sold by their families after death could legally be reanimated, but nobility cannot under any circumstances (even if they or their families give permission) be animated as undead. You could have a nation where necromancers are employed to reanimate soldiers or indentured servants who die before their allotted time of service has come to and end.

[The Raven Black]

My True Neutral Cleric of Pharasma takes control of the undead she meets, commands them to help her achieve whatever needs to be done (which is often destroying other undead) and then destroys them, thereby sending them back to the welcoming arms of her goddess

Biggest difference with the OP here is that she never creates undead

[Quoth13]

Easiest way to get around the evil alignment class requirement is "Hey GM I have a really cool character concept. This is what I want to play to make it work mechanicaly but it requires the character to be evil. Can we waive the evil requirement for this character to make the character work?" Paizo constantly reminds us we can make modifications to the system to tell a compelling story. As a story oriented GM myself. Which it sounds like your GM is as well we like to see new types of characters to work with so we can tie in new interesting elements to the story.