The bat-god idol the PCs are supposed to retrieve from the ancient Olman city of Tamoachan represents Camazotz, "an ancient god of bats and night" (Dungeon #141, pp. 40-41). It is supposed to be placed in an alcove in the Shrine of Zotzilaha, the god of bats and fire worshipped by the Olman people on the Isle of Dread (#143, pp. 42-46). Are Camazotz and Zotzilaha supposed to be two names for the same deity? (Plausible, since both names contain the phoneme "zotz" and the two groups of Olman are separated by thousands of miles and nearly a millenium of history)? Or are they two different gods?
And, is there more information on the Olman pantheon somewhere?
Azzy is correct. One thing of note is that we planted a bit of a seed for intrigue within the Olman pantheon by mentioning in the Zotzilaha Lore sidebar that Zotzilaha has take on the fire aspect of Huhueteotl. Interpreting this information is pretty much left up to the DM, but could make things interesting if you plan to run Tides of Dread as its own mini-campaign.
Creative Director
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Yup; as the others have said, Camazotz and Zotzilaha are the same deity, just different names due to regional variance.
The Olman pantheon is very much based on various real-world Central American myths and deities, down to (in most cases) using exact names. The 1st Edition Deities and Demigods is a great source for more info about the D&D versions of these deities, as is the 2nd edition supplement "The Scarlet Brotherhood." These two books are pretty much the main sources I've been using to round out Olman deities in the Savage Tide adventure path.
There are more details about them to come in the next few adventures, and I believe that they're scheduled to be detailed some more in some upcoming Dragon magazine class acts. (If I wasn't supposed to say that out loud, you should probably ignore what I just said.)
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I looked up Aztec and Mayan Gods and old D/d supplements to round this out and some sci fi images from the Rifts book Vampire Kingdoms. I am hinting to the Pcs that the olmans may have been ruled by powerful vampire lords and Bat Gods,but olny hint to a possibility .This may just be a rumor that adventurers started....
The bat-god idol the PCs are supposed to retrieve from the ancient Olman city of Tamoachan represents Camazotz, "an ancient god of bats and night" (Dungeon #141, pp. 40-41). It is supposed to be placed in an alcove in the Shrine of Zotzilaha, the god of bats and fire worshipped by the Olman people on the Isle of Dread (#143, pp. 42-46). Are Camazotz and Zotzilaha supposed to be two names for the same deity? (Plausible, since both names contain the phoneme "zotz" and the two groups of Olman are separated by thousands of miles and nearly a millenium of history)? Or are they two different gods?
And, is there more information on the Olman pantheon somewhere?
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I looked up Aztec and Mayan Gods and old D/d supplements to round this out and some sci fi images from the Rifts book Vampire Kingdoms. I am hinting to the Pcs that the olmans may have been ruled by powerful vampire lords and Bat Gods,but olny hint to a possibility .This may just be a rumor that adventurers started....The bat-god idol the PCs are supposed to retrieve from the ancient Olman city of Tamoachan represents Camazotz, "an ancient god of bats and night" (Dungeon #141, pp. 40-41). It is supposed to be placed in an alcove in the Shrine of Zotzilaha, the god of bats and fire worshipped by the Olman people on the Isle of Dread (#143, pp. 42-46). Are Camazotz and Zotzilaha supposed to be two names for the same deity? (Plausible, since both names contain the phoneme "zotz" and the two groups of Olman are separated by thousands of miles and nearly a millenium of history)? Or are they two different gods?
And, is there more information on the Olman pantheon somewhere?
Sweet idea. I have that book too. Some of the best stuff to me ever.
...is there more information on the Olman pantheon somewhere?
Mostly complete information can be found on any Greyhawk deity (including the Olman pantheon) within the Living Greyhawk Deities v2.0 which can be found here. It's indispensible IMC.
Yeah, this post is VERY similar to another of mine :)
Good Luck,
Jack
Are Camazotz and Zotzilaha supposed to be two names for the same deity? (Plausible, since both names contain the phoneme "zotz" and the two groups of Olman are separated by thousands of miles and nearly a millenium of history)? Or are they two different gods?
And, is there more information on the Olman pantheon somewhere?
You could seek a little inspiration from the source as well- look for the 'Popol Vuh', the Mayan/Quiche bible if you will. Camazotz is in there and it's a pretty wild read.
You could seek a little inspiration from the source as well- look for the 'Popol Vuh', the Mayan/Quiche bible if you will...
Real men don't read quiche :P
You could seek a little inspiration from the source as well- look for the 'Popol Vuh', the Mayan/Quiche bible if you will...Real men don't read quiche :P
I knew i had that coming- it's pronounced 'Key-chay', ya tatteredmalaprop. ; )
Real men don't read quiche :P
I knew i had that coming- it's pronounced 'Key-chay', ya tatteredmalaprop. ; )
Yeah, no shot is too cheap :)
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That is incorrect, actually. Camazotz, Zotz and Zotzilaha are all used in C1: The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. Tamoachan, as we all know, is in the Amedio, therefore Camazotz is not simply a "hepmonaland variant".
Long Answer: Camazotz (or simply "Zotz") is the Hemponaland name, while Zotzilaha is the Amedio variant of the name.
According to the Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook (which I was going by), the names are regional. It may be a retcon, but it's not incorrect. Wasn't C1 setting-generic in the first place (I can't find my copy), and later retconned into the Amedio region?
Guess I should have done some of my own research before bothering everyone here.
Scarlet Brotherhood pp. 42-43 details the Olman gods. I recognize several Mesoamerican deities on this list, and the text indicates that these deities were originally worshipped in an alternate material plane, so I assume they are pretty much imported wholesale from the real Mesoamerican pantheon.
Scarlet Brotherhood p. 64 discusses the local specifics of Olman worship in the Amedio, and specifically identifies Zotzilaha as an alternative name for Camazotz, with a slightly different portfolio.
The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan p. 6 specifically equates Camazotz to Zotzilaha as well. The "Child of Zotzilaha" on p. 9 is said to be an "agent of Camazotz."
So I guess that settles it. If anyone's party picks up some Olman PCs along the way, DMs might find the list of Olman deities in SB helpful, although I imagine the 1st edition deities and demigods, which listed the Aztec pantheon, is probably equally useful.
On a side note, I have a friend whose wife, a native of Oaxaca in Mexico, is deathly afraid of bats and "chupacabras." The legacy of Camazotz lives on in Mexico!
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Creative Director
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According to the Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook (which I was going by), the names are regional. It may be a retcon, but it's not incorrect. Wasn't C1 setting-generic in the first place (I can't find my copy), and later retconned into the Amedio region?
Scarlet Brotherhood is indeed where I was getting the "regional names" bit. Personally, I would have rather just used Camazotz for everything, and probably should have, but I decided to go with established lore. Sticking to canon isn't always the simple route...
According to the Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook (which I was going by), the names are regional. It may be a retcon, but it's not incorrect. Wasn't C1 setting-generic in the first place (I can't find my copy), and later retconned into the Amedio region?Scarlet Brotherhood is indeed where I was getting the "regional names" bit. Personally, I would have rather just used Camazotz for everything, and probably should have, but I decided to go with established lore. Sticking to canon isn't always the simple route...
That's OK, James--it's a minor point and it's not too hard to guess that Camazotz and Zotzilaha are essentially the same. I was pretty sure, but just wanted to confirm and get more info on the Olman pantheon if I could. If Paizo is ever able to publish STAP in hardcover, you can insert a simple parenthetical comment to call attention to the "same god, different names" thing. Hopefully confused readers will pick up on this thread and get it straightened out.
At least in the process I found a source of more info on the Olman pantheon that will be useful to my campaign.
As a side note, I don't suppose Dragon plans to publish an updated listing of the Olman pantheon (i.e. brief description and info pertinent to PCs like portfolio, favored weapon, and domains), but it might be a useful bit. If I have time, maybe I'll work on it and post the results here.
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As a side note, I don't suppose Dragon plans to publish an updated listing of the Olman pantheon (i.e. brief description and info pertinent to PCs like portfolio, favored weapon, and domains), but it might be a useful bit.
Heh. Starting with issue 352, Dragon is detailing the Aztec pantheon in its Class Acts (Divine) section (it includes a nice little text box entitled "From Aztec to Olman"). The first instalment covers both Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca.
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Well, I'd say "it may be canon, but it's not correct". It's just another example of the poor research and uninspired development by the author of Scarlet Brotherhood.
More uninspired than using a real-world pantheon in a fictional setting that otherwise has its own fictional pantheons instead of creating another fictional pantheon (or representing existing fictional deities with cultural-specific names)? The use of the Aztec pantheon for the Olman is a pet peeve of mine.
C1 clearly establishes that all 3 names for Zotz are used in the amedio.
Actually, not really. C1 only establishes that there are 2 different names (Camazotz & Zotzilaha) for the god (nothing is said about their usage--as they're never presented in dialogue), and seems to use "Zotz" inconsistently as a sort of shorthand throughout the module. It's also interesting to note that Zotzilaha, as far as I could find in a quick scan of the text, is only used twice. BTW, I found my copy of the module, if you couldn't tell. ;)
I'd prefer an explanation for the varying names closer to that offered by the Living Greyhawk "return of Tloques-Poplocas" (not the exact title) author's, which as I'm told states that Zotzilaha is the dark/evil aspect of the god, since C1 only uses that name for him in reference to T-P's (a vampire) worship of him. Camazotz would then be the more neutral or good aspect, with Zotz being the informal name used in everyday parlance.
Except that's a retcon, too. And an incorrect one at that (consider the text on page 9 that states: "This creature is a nereid, a being of pure water. She is an agent of Camazotz, the undead god. Though she is chaotic evil, she possesses an insidious and clever mind, hidden beneath her alien beauty and seeming naivete.").
Besides, that retcon really doesn't strike me as any better than the retcon of making the two names (Camazotz and Zotzilaha) regional variants. Of course, YMMV.
And for the off target (but interesting nontheless) reference: Camazotz or a variant spelling is used in the first book of the Madeline l'Engle series (A Wrinkle in Time) to name a planet that has fallen into darkness. Considering the Olman mythology, it is more than fitting no?
I don't want hijack this thread but what do DMs running STAP in an other setting than Greyhawk do with the Olmans and their gods?
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I don't want hijack this thread but what do DMs running STAP in an other setting than Greyhawk do with the Olmans and their gods?
In my FR setting, I plan to include the Olmans as a precursor civilization of the "modern" Mazticans/Nexalans, Payit, and other human cultures in the True World (commonly known as "Maztica"), sort of analogous to the real-world Olmecs. The Olmans and their deities thus get imported almost without change (except for their own deep origins, which are more complicated, and different than in a GH campaign).
I'm waiting to see what Keith Baker suggests when the conversion notes are updated, but at first glance I'm inclined to leave them as-is, and possibly work in some implications as to which of the Sovereign Host or Dark Six each deity might "really" be.