I think the Mechanic is an incredibly interesting and versatile class, both the Exocortex and Drone options are not only very distinct from each other but are the best kind of class abilities as they are not only interesting mechanically but also springboards for the imagination.
The issue is though that if you hear the word 'Mechanic' then the images that evokes is of grease monkeys like Kaylee from Firefly, or starship engineers like Scottie and Geordi LaForge from Star Trek. People who are the absolute best of the best when it comes to anything to do with the machines and mechanisms that are integral part of any futuristic science themed fiction (like Starfinder!). It's not an accident that both those terms sound so much like the Mechanic!
It's not just the name even, every piece of art for the mechanic shows people who seem like they would be at home working on a custom built joyride or hotwiring someone else's to steal it! Heck the description of the class says right at the top. "You are a master of machines". They are supposed to know machines better than anyone. Point blank and full stop.
The problem is having the slick spy, the hardboiled detective, the daring thrillseeker operatives shove the Mechanic out of the way with an impatient sigh when an Engineering or Computers check comes up with a "Why don't you sit over there while I take care of it huh?" It's like if Beverly Crusher, in her downtime, became better at running the Enterprise then Geordi while still being a full on doctor! (By the way the Operative needs a Medic specialization!)
It just feels wrong for anyone else other than the Hacker Operative to not only equal the Mechanic in the check, but to exceed it. Those other Operatives should be (capable) second fiddles to the Mechanic when these situations come up not the masters!
To be fair the fantasy of the machine savant IS reinforced by all of the Mechanic's class abilities and many of its Tricks. Overload, Remote Hack, Expert Rig, Override, Coordinated Assault, advanced rig etc. are all great. it's just these all come very slowly over a Mechanic's career and it can't overcome the numbers the Operative can throw around in Computers and Engineering thanks to Operative's edge.
The Mechanic *sounds* like a skill monkey class, but it really isn't. It's a pet class with the drone or a ranged combat class with the exocortex that has some very good class abilities that interact with machines.
That's great. But just like the Envoy is the master social class thanks to Expertise (while also being a buffer/debuffer). So should the Mechanic be with Computers and Engineering.
The fix is simple. The Bypass class ability just needs a simple buff is all.
Change it to:
BYPASS (EX) 1ST LEVEL
You are skilled at getting inside computer systems and electronic devices. At 1st level, you gain a +1 insight bonus to Computers and Engineering skill checks. At 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1.
Boom done. It maintains what seems to be Paizo's design philosophy to limit insight skill check bonuses to +6 overall (check the math on both Operative's edge and the current Bypass) AND it allows the Mechanic to stay one step ahead of non hacker Operatives in the early game when it comes to just these two skills. I don't think it's overpowered at all.
I'd also change the name to Machine Savant and change the flavour text to.
"U R BEST AT MACHINES".
Or
"Your mastery of all things technological is truly astounding."
You know, whatever.
What do you guys think?
The real problem is that the Operative is just a little too good at skills in general. Not the number of skills they get, but just that they get better bonuses to skills (that they choose) then classes that are theoretically focused into certain skills, like the mechanic.
Well I think it's good to ensure that the Starfinder equivalent of the Rogue doesn't get outclassed in skills by other high Int classes and Operative's edge definitely does do that.
But I think it's good to bring the Mechanic up in what it should be best at to give it an advantage over the Operative. Just like the Envoy gets to do with expertise.
I would also note that exocortex mechanics are hands down the best in combat hackers. Being able to remotely hack things when in higher tech environments can allow you to do a lot of shenanigans to disrupt opponents. Also in more civil situations the ability to hack into something remotely allows you to gain access in a way that is not obvious at all so you can reach out and hack people's personal comps while sitting drinking your blue milk at a cafe.
@Skuld89. Skill Focus and Skill Synergy are low level only feats I agree. But the Mechanic has to spend a FEAT to even get those while the Hacker Operative just gets it to bolster its lower levels.
Then at mid to high level the faster scaling of Operative's Edge (for ALL the Operative Specializations!) leaves the Mechanic's Bypass behind. That's where you get the image of Beverly Crusher swanning around Engineering while a chastened Geordi just looks on.
That doesn't sit right for a class that's supposed to be "Master of Machines".
Sure Data, probably a very very high Int operative Hacker build, should be able to go toe to toe or with or even outshine La Forge. But that's it. Making Bypass four levels faster in progression accomplishes that.
The issue is though that if you hear the word 'Mechanic' then the images that evokes is of grease monkeys like Kaylee from Firefly, or starship engineers like Scottie and Geordi LaForge from Star Trek.
When you hear the word mechanic that might come to mind. But I think you should think of the mechanic as 2 different classes. When I read the exocortex mechanic I think deus ex or even ghost in the shell. Hacking super soldier and not a grease monkey.
It just feels wrong for anyone else other than the Hacker Operative to not only equal the Mechanic in the check, but to exceed it. Those other Operatives should be (capable) second fiddles to the Mechanic when these situations come up not the masters!
Ignoring the fact that the mechanic shouldn't be the only ones that can hack because then that would mean you would HAVE to have a mechanic on every ship. My question is why do you think the Operative is better?
To really prove that the Operative is better how about you build an Operative and post it. I always like seeing someones take on a class and where they would put points. Build an Operative (at 10 lvl? No one gets to 20 these days)with ability points, feats, skills and tricks and we can see how well an Operative can surpass a mechanic. I for one see Ghost being one of the best options for an Operative but thats just me.
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Well let's compare the Computer and Engineering Skills for a Hacker Operative, Non Hacker Operative, and a Mechanic. All of them will be putting in full ranks in Computer and Engineering.
Let's assume 16 int to start, going to 18 int at rank 5.
Level 1 -
Hacker Operative:
+1 Rank +3 Int +3 Class Skill +1 Operative's Edge + 2 free Skill Focus = +10
Non Hacker Operative:
+1 Rank +3 Int +3 Class Skill +1 Operative's Edge = +8
Mechanic
+1 Rank +3 Int +3 Class Skill +1 Bypass = +8
Level 2
Just adding rank.
Hacker Operative
+11
Non Hacker Operative
+9
Mechanic
+9
Level 3
Operative's edge goes to +2, which doesn't help the Hacker because of the skill focus but does help the non hacker operative
Hacker OP
+12
Non Hacker OP
+11
Mechanic
+10
Level 4
Just adding rank
Hacker OP
+13
Non Hacker OP
+12
Mechanic
+11
Level 5
Int boost. Mechanic gets bypass +2
Hacker OP
+15
Non Hacker OP
+14
Mechanic
+14
Level 6
Just adding rank
Hacker OP
+16
Non Hacker OP
+15
Mechanic
+15
Level 7
Operative's edge goes to 3, Skill Focus stops mattering for the Hacker. Non Hacker OP catches up to it.
Hacker OP
+17
Non Hacker OP
+17
Mechanic
+16
Level 8
Just adding rank
Hacker OP
+18
Non Hacker OP
+18
Mechanic
+17
Level 9
Bypass goes to +3
Hacker OP
+19
Non Hacker OP
+19
Mechanic
+19
Level 10
Just adding rank. Int goes to 19 which doesn't make a difference
Hacker OP
+20
Non Hacker OP
+20
Mechanic
+20
Level 11
Operative's edge goes to +4
Hacker OP
+22
Non Hacker OP
+22
Mechanic
+21
Alright. We can see here that things even out pretty well by mid levels with the engineer only being a bit behind even non Hacker Operatives. And at this level of skill bonus being a point or so ahead or behind becomes close to trivial.
But there are two things I'd like to point out here.
First, At low levels where each point matters a whole lot more.. and where a lot of RPGS are played... the Mechanic is, absurdly, behind even non hacker operatives! What kind of a master of machines is this? Level 3 and 4 are, frankly, ridiculous.
The second thing I'll point out is:
Being good at machines is one of the ONLY THING Mechanics have going for them. All of their class abilities revolve around using and manipulating tech.
Operatives on the other hand? They have four more skill points than mechanics at EVERY level. Operative's edge applies to ALL skills not just two. They have trick attacks and iterative attacks. They've got ALL of these other things going on and to have them be better at the mechanic's SINGLE shtick on top of all of that is just weird and off-putting.
Sure the Mechanic is probably a better tech user in certain situations. But outside of those situations? The Master of Machines is outclassed. It has one job. It really should be the best at it.
@JetSetRadio. I'm not saying the Mechanic should be the only class that can hack. I'm saying that the Mechanic should be better at the Computers and Engineering skills than a non Hacker Operative.
I have a quibble:
ExoMechs get a free skill focus they can retrain for free each level. At level 1 they can put that into computers which would even them out, early on.
I am looking over the envoy now and they could have their expertise helping. I would suggest they wouldn't have as high of an intelligence bonus, but for engineering at level 3 they could forego the expertise to half the time, same with fast have.
By level 5 they could have 7 they can have expertise in both skills, and both fast hack and engineering adept letting them finish faster than anyone else.
Heck with student of technology you are highly likely to be able to better identify technology than a mechanic too.
Now I don't think the mechanic is horribly off, but I have not had enough play time to actually confirmy suspicions about certain parts.
One thing that seems to be missing here is that exomechanics are the really dedicated hacker mechanics and if built for hacking are really good at it.
At level 1 exo mechanics memory module ability gives them a free skill focus feat. At every level they can switch this to a different skill so they can use that in place of their bypass skill bonus until the bypass matches or exceeds it.
At level 5 they can basically have their exo cortex work on hacking things in 20 feet of them while still taking their normal set of combat actions or they can work with the cortex to greatly improve how fast they can do their hack.
The mechanics also have a number of mechanic tricks that improve hacking. The early one available at level 2 hack directory has proven to be pretty useful. If you fail a hack test and set off security you can see what counter measures you tripped off and have the ability to take another hack test to shut one of them down before it gets out.
I think at very low levels operators probably still are a bit ahead if they are focused totally on hacking but a dedicated hacking exo mechanic who is taking the mechanic tricks to assist in that job will over take and surpass them. At level 5 though is the big boost operatives if they can sit and focus on a computer they have direct access too are still excellent hackers but mechanics ability to casually hack targets without ever coming into physical contact with them is pretty amazing in play. Being able to siphon off a guys personal comp while across the bar for them chatting with the ladies the whole time is pretty hard to detect or stop.
Drone mechanics are less pure hacking focused so while they can stay close to the operatives and exo mechanics they generally fall behind a bit until their levels help even things off.
The fact that basically secret agents are really good at hacking does not seem to be that unusual. Mechanics in general are either comparable to or just a shade under an operative while having a large amount of extra utility on how they hack. In most adventures the exocortex mechanic probably is going to wind up being the hacker who really shines simply because they can do it on the move or without having to directly gain physical contact with the target system.
@Abraham: I'll take that quibble gladly. The exocortex can get a Skill focus of their choice. They'll have to choose either Computers or Engineering though.
The envoy can be an excellent hacker as well. And heck I just saw a Technomancer at play who used the Identify spell to just absolutely destroy Hacking DCs.
It's amazing and spectacular that so many different classes can be amazing at technology. That's not a problem at all and speaks well of Starfinder. The problem is that I'm running a game and the Exocortex Mechanic feels weak at the two skills that they should be at the top of the class of because of the two operatives in the early game.
A Technomancher has to use up spells to be significantly ahead of the Mechanic in specific scenarios, and the Envoy has to actively build to be good at Computers and Engineering by choosing those skills as expertise at level 1 and 5 and taking the opportunity cost of not being good at others.
The Operative just gets to be better than a Mechanic of the same Intelligence almost by default. That should not be the case for a class whose fantasy is supposed to evoke Scottie, Geordi, Kaylee, and Tony Stark.
I would also simply like to point out that at low levels a mechanic generally is going to wind up having better int than envoy's or operatives unless those are really focusing on hacking/tech skills simply because Int is the primary stat for mechanics where it is not for the other two.
One can simply assume they all have the same int but in practice most operatives I have seen in play have their primary points put into dex and their starting int seems to be around 14 generally. Where as for mechanics it is a lot easier for them to start with minimum of 16 int and very viable to even go 18 int off the start depending on your race since it is both their primary stat and overall really good for their class specific stuff.
Oh and yes technomancers wind up being really excellent specialty hackers. The ability to use magic to learn some ancient language so you can hack some relic is pretty hard to duplicate for any pure tech hacker.
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Honestly the fact that 4 of the classes can very competently hack if they choose to is actually a good thing. Most parties are going to be from 4-6 people having that many viable computer hacking classes means you can pretty much guarantee somebody on the team can get that job done if they need to.
Mechanics would tend to be the in combat hackers people capable of infiltrating computer systems even in the middle of a firefight is a niche the others can't do.
Technomancers ability to hack into alien computers is nothing short of amazing. Being able to use magic to let you grok the language and other spells to help lower DC gives them a niche that pure tech classes would be hard pressed to match.
Operatives are just flat highly skilled at hacking. If they have direct physical access to a computer chances are they can hack it.
Envoys are like bards they can cover almost any skill monkey check that the group needs covered. If your group needs a dedicated hacker an envoy can fill that role.
Alright, I'll level; I love the over all feel of the mechanic. Have drone/AI will travel and a wizard with the tools should be lots of fun.
But it seems like all his abilities are focused on not falling behind everyone else in everything. It really reminds me of the 3.5 core bard or rogue.
There is too much effort on not allowing it to have action economy and still an design emphasis on how much have a per should give it.
Anyone can make things. The mechanic is not super at this, the best it's got is techmaster at 20. Much too late to matter, and there are spells that do more so much sooner.
It's bonuses aren't inspiring. It's tricks keep it on par(ish) damage-wise. It has is perhaps survivability with the extra built-in shields and heavy armor... and I am not convinced that they have more there than anyone else
Well let's compare the Computer and Engineering Skills for a Hacker Operative, Non Hacker Operative, and a Mechanic. All of them will be putting in full ranks in Computer and Engineering.
See this is why I just said make an operative. The issue comes with comparing midmax characters. There are too many variables and when you are flipping through a book trying to prove a point you forget/overlook things. Like the Exocortex Skill focus.
My Ghost Operative is not going to be the same as yours. Just as well as your mechanic compared to mine. But I see you already went down this path. I also see you forgot a few things but lets roll with it.
Alright. We can see here that things even out pretty well by mid levels with the engineer only being a bit behind even non Hacker Operatives. And at this level of skill bonus being a point or so ahead or behind becomes close to trivial.
But there are two things I'd like to point out here.
First, At low levels where each point matters a whole lot more.. and where a lot of RPGS are played... the Mechanic is, absurdly, behind even non hacker operatives! What kind of a master of machines is this? Level 3 and 4 are, frankly, ridiculous.
You just said that it is basically even. No need to back track and say the class is absurd or ridiculous. And it isn't behind because you forgot skill focus.
The second thing I'll point out is:
Being good at machines is one of the ONLY THING Mechanics have going for them. All of their class abilities revolve around using and manipulating tech.Operatives on the other hand? They have four more skill points than mechanics at EVERY level. Operative's edge applies to ALL skills not just two. They have trick attacks and iterative attacks. They've got ALL of these other things going on and to have them be better at the mechanic's SINGLE shtick on top of all of that is just weird and off-putting.
Sure the Mechanic is probably a better tech user in certain situations. But outside of those situations? The Master of Machines is outclassed. It has one job. It really should be the best at it.
@JetSetRadio. I'm not saying the Mechanic should be the only class that can hack. I'm saying that the Mechanic should be better at the Computers and Engineering skills than a non Hacker Operative.
Exocortex Mechanics are hacking super soldiers. Not only can they stop constructs and hack them remotely but they get a full attack bonus while not hacking, heavy armor, long arms and so many other abilities. Only problem is they have too many abilities to choose one. They have an energy shield that if upgraded gives you resistance 15 to two types of energy. Or you could upgrade yourself to have additional AC and Haste.
What you are saying is an opinion just like mine are. There is no one way to play. Just because you think the class is bad doesn't mean it is. The Operative is good at everything but great at nothing in my opinion. But if you really don't like the Operative then nerf it. I'm bowing out. I see this only going down a spiral. Enjoy the game all! It's truly great.
I get why the multitasking is good, but is the twin/quad targets really worth it? It only matters when you actually attack. Full BAB against a target is nice, but you aren't getting extra attacks.
I'm not one to poopoo away total +5 bonus to hit, but it seems a bit overhyped. Maybe I just am still too stuck on how easy bonuses come in Pathfinder.
It's amazing and spectacular that so many different classes can be amazing at technology. That's not a problem at all and speaks well of Starfinder. The problem is that I'm running a game and the Exocortex Mechanic feels weak at the two skills that they should be at the top of the class of because of the two operatives in the early game.
Well since you are running a game then you should know that not every character is going to be made the same. My wife isn't going to make a character as great as my buddy. Unless you make everyone's characters for them some won't be as good as others.
One of my players is a Shirren Solarian because he wanted to be one. It's his character so I didn't tell him another race would've been better. I just let him do it. (Yes, I know about quick picks but I don't use those. You're a bug and shouldn't have high charisma)
@JetSetRadio: To me the fact that a non Hacker Operative is ahead of the Mechanic at all in Computers and Engineering is absurd which is why I used that term.
In any case. I think we're going to start going in circles here so I'll just say post what I'll probably do in my own game and be done.
Exocortex Mechanic just gets full BAB. No fiddling around with move actions or not being able to hack and shoot at the same time until later levels. Just full BAB and they can also do their other tricks without having to worry about if combat tracking is on or not.
All Mechanics get a souped up Bypass. That bumps up at Levels 1, 2, and every 4 posts thereafter. (instead of 1,5, and then every 4).
These are minor tweaks and hardly overpowered. It doesn't even make them any sort of One True Hacker Build.
I get why the multitasking is good, but is the twin/quad targets really worth it? It only matters when you actually attack. Full BAB against a target is nice, but you aren't getting extra attacks.
I'm not one to poopoo away total +5 bonus to hit, but it seems a bit overhyped. Maybe I just am still too stuck on how easy bonuses come in Pathfinder.
Remote hacking costs one of your targeting slots. So if you have twin targeting you get full BAB vs one opponent and can use your other for remote hacking hijinks.
Remote hacking costs one of your targeting slots. So if you have twin targeting you get full BAB vs one opponent and can use your other for remote hacking hijinks.I get why the multitasking is good, but is the twin/quad targets really worth it? It only matters when you actually attack. Full BAB against a target is nice, but you aren't getting extra attacks.
I'm not one to poopoo away total +5 bonus to hit, but it seems a bit overhyped. Maybe I just am still too stuck on how easy bonuses come in Pathfinder.
Twin targeting doesn't do that though. Multitasking does which comes much later (level 15)
To wit:
Twin Tracking (Ex) 10th Level
You can designate two targets for your exocortex to track, increasing your base attack bonus against each. You can designate both targets with a single move action, but you must be able to see them both at that time.Multitasking (Ex) 15th Level
You can designate three targets for your exocortex to track (and designate them all as a single move action). In addition, the range of your exocortex’s wireless hack increases to 40 feet. Your exocortex can also engage in combat tracking and hack a nearby computer at the same time, but the computer counts as one of the exocortex’s designated targets (allowing you to track only two targets at the same time while wirelessly hacking the computer). Lastly, you can access your exocortex’s memory module in combat, even while it is engaged in combat tracking.
That's just really uninspiring for a level ten ability. It would be different if you had more attacks like the other full BAB classes, or the droneMech. But if you take ExoMech you are not getting the extra attacks other full BAB classes get and you aren't getting the extra attacks the drone gets.
As it is twin targeting saves you 1-2 move actions a combat.
Multitasking is fairly wow in that it allows you to do the hacking split and keep your abilities. I agree that's impressive. I would suggest that if that capability was moved down to twin tasking and an extra attacks on a full attack at 15th level only useful against a target it would (and being able to have a third target) it would handle my complaint almost completely.
With that said: I am still looking forward to playing the ExoMech. It has some other parts that intrigue me and let's face it, the game isn't only about numbers