Elementalist Shifter - water breathing?

[Kuhtur Dibnur]

I'm trying to figure out if the elementalist shifter gets water breathing when they can shift into a water elemental. It would make sense to me, but as written it doesn't make clear if they get it or not, as it says they only get what's written in their stats

[graystone]

"At 4th level, when an elementalist shifter uses wild shape, she is instead affected as if by elemental body I, but she gains only the benefits listed in her elemental aspect."

Major Form: Your shape changes to that of a Medium water elemental (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 126). While you are in this form, your base speed is reduced to 20 feet but you gain a swim speed of 60 feet, and if both you and your target are touching water, you also gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. If the target is touching the ground, you take a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls against it. These modifiers apply to bull rush and overrun combat maneuvers, whether you are initiating or resisting these kinds of attacks."

So, looks like changing into a big puddle of water does nothing to prevent you drowning as "the ability to breathe water" from the elemental form spell isn't "listed" ...

[Kuhtur Dibnur]

That's what I thought. By that token, Earth shifters will suffocate underground as well

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

It's a polymorph effect, so the general polymorph rules apply.

general polymorph rules wrote:

If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.

(Second to last sentence of first paragraph of that section.)

[graystone]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

It's a polymorph effect, so the general polymorph rules apply.

general polymorph rules wrote:

If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.

(Second to last sentence of first paragraph of that section.)

I'd agree normally but the elemental body spell specifically grants "the ability to breathe water", a more specific rule than the general one, and the shifter form removing that specifically granted ability IMO overrides the general one.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

graystone wrote:

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

It's a polymorph effect, so the general polymorph rules apply.

general polymorph rules wrote:

If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.

(Second to last sentence of first paragraph of that section.)

I'd agree normally but the elemental body spell specifically grants "the ability to breathe water", a more specific rule than the general one, and the shifter form removing that specifically granted ability IMO overrides the general one.

IMO it just means they were trying to save space :-)

Why would they consciously decide to make a water elemental form unable to breathe water? Much more sensible to decide "we can drop this clause, it's redundant with the polymorph rules."

If you don't buy that argument we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't think this is settle-able.

[graystone]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

IMO it just means they were trying to save space :-)

If they meant to save space, why have the spell grant an ability it didn't need? :-)

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Why would they consciously decide to make a water elemental form unable to breathe water? Much more sensible to decide "we can drop this clause, it's redundant with the polymorph rules."

Consciously? I doubt it. This book has a LOT of things that look like they need a few more edits, like non-flying owls or immobile slimes. I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct and they just assumed things, but that doesn't change the facts as I see them. A specifically granted ability requires a specific inclusion the way shifter forms are written.

Secondly, the polymorph section is badly written so as the ability is actually NOT redundant. "you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing" This means that if you stop moving, you lose the ability to breathe, unlike the ability from the actual spell that doesn't require movement to breath. Someone paralyzed underwater drowns if they are relying on a polymorph spell...

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

If you don't buy that argument we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't think this is settle-able.

Intent is most likely that you are meant to breath. I'd just like a LOT of things attached to this book cleaned up and worded correctly.

[JCFreedom]

What does it actually mean by "your shape changes"? To me this means you actually become an elemental and your type changes to that of an elemental (no longer humanoid or whatever you were before). If that's true then the issue is addressed. An elemental has the following features.

"Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
. . .
Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep.".

If that's not the case, then what does it actually mean?

Also it states that the shifter is "affected as if by elemental body I" yet under the aspects it says "Your shape is changed to that of a Medium XXX elemental". Elemental body I can only do small elementals. You have to have Elemental body II to do medium. Do they mean you are small or do they mean to say you are affected as if by elemental body II?

[dragonhunterq]

It's a polymorph effect. You follow all the normal polymorph rules from the magic section of the CRB.
It does not change your type.
It means you stop looking like whatever you normally look like and now look like a medium sized elemental of the appropriate type with the abilities granted by elemental body I.

You are affected as if by elemental body I but you are medium sized. It varies the rules of elemental body I.