Adjusting a race for game


Homebrew

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I'm planning out a homebrew game and would really like to use the third-party race Dragonkin. I would like to add some alternate racial traits that would give them a Fly speed or a dragon's breath attack. But I'm not sure what they would replace. This is the page that gives the info for the dragonkin. Link It doesn't say, but I'm assuming they are Medium sized and Humanoid with the reptilian subtype.


A fly speed would replace the natural armor and the darkvision... A twice daily breath attack 2d6 dmg would replace darkvision or natural armor and have to be the same energy type as their resistance. Yes medium size.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Is that a low-point race? I think you could add one or more features to it and it wouldn't be unbalancing. It depends on how fast the fly speed is, of course.

Maybe give them a glide speed and then make a Feat for Flight?

They remind me of the 5th Edition Dragonborn race.


It doesn't say how much points they are. I figured a Fly speed of 30 would work. It's not all that fast but faster than they can walk. Ooh, if I make Glide a standard trait, I could make an alternate trait that completely grounds them. That could be a nice roleplay point.

I also saw a feat for Lizardfolk that gives them a tail attack with a chance to trip on a crit. That would be nice for the dragonkin to have. And their bite and claw attacks are also nice. Maybe I could make the bite a standard trait for the dragonkin.


Dragonkin adds up to be a 9 rp race.. which is on par with most standard races.

Fly is 4 rp for 30ft clumsy, glide is 3.

Bite is 1 rp for 1d3 dmg.

If you want it to be on par with normal races you can't give it much without taking stuff away.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Race points are silly. Sure they can be an alright guideline, but after the first few levels, there's not much difference between a 5 RP race and a 19 RP race. Just compare your Dragonkin to the other races you're allowing in the campaign and see how they stack up.


12 rp is 70ft speed perfect flight. That is a collosal difference at level 1 and a huge difference at level 5 and still a big difference at 15.
Granted other abilities wash out and lots of things can be replaced with magic as the levels get higher but having a base flight speed lets you improve it and that just gets better and better.


If your PCs are allowed to play the race it doesn't really matter if it is way better than others because they will also have those advantages. So if it fits your theme do it.


I'm going to allow all of the Core and Featured races except for Kobolds. Players can also use the dragonkin, which is why I want to make sure my adjustments are balanced.

I'm going to allow dragonkin characters to take the Lizardfolk feat Dangerous Tail.


Look at the recent race from Ultimate Wilderness. You get a 40ft poor fly speed, 30ft land speed (as a small creature) and low light vision. Fly speeds are powerful, since above all else, they allow you to start putting points into Fly.


I'm not sure if I can have them just Glide instead of Fly. How would they get into the air? I think a standard trait of a 30 Fly speed with Average maneuverability wouldn't be too strong. Would it?

A bite attack would replace the natural armor. As would the breath attack. The breath attack would also replace the flying.

So you could fly and have natural armor, or fly and bite, or have a breath attack. I don't want to have flying replace anything. And yes, the breath attack would be the same type as their resistance.


Fly and glide are on the "advanced" traits for a reason... They are too good to have as a PC class at level 1, compared to every other PC race.


I can't actually find Glide as a trait except as Earth Glide. I found the Glide spell.

I could do 30 with Poor. I want them to be able to fly at least a little faster than they can walk, and their base speed is 20.


*Thelith wrote:

Dragonkin adds up to be a 9 rp race.. which is on par with most standard races.

Fly is 4 rp for 30ft clumsy, glide is 3.

Bite is 1 rp for 1d3 dmg.

If you want it to be on par with normal races you can't give it much without taking stuff away.

dragon kin adds up to like 6 race points not 9

ability score +0
speed -1
language +0
darkvision +2
skill bonus to 2 skills +2
skill is always a class skill +1
natural armor +2
energy resist 2 to a single energy type would be like 0.25 race points

total race points 6.25 round down to 6


*Thelith wrote:
Fly and glide are on the "advanced" traits for a reason... They are too good to have as a PC class at level 1, compared to every other PC race.

there are several paizo made races that start out with wings at level 1 so that argument is out the window immediately.


personally i would have them be
type: dragon and humanoid human(means both humanoid human and dragon bane weapons work on them as well as favored enemy from rangers)
Ability Score Racial Traits: +2 Strength, +2 Charisma
darkvision 60
lowlight vision
Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
Base Speed: Slow; Dragonkin have a base speed of 20 feet, and their speed is never modified by encumbrance or armor.
Flight 40: average
resistance 5 to their respective type
size medium
natural armor 1
skill boost to either +2 diplomacy or +2 intimidate

this would be on par with aasimar or teiflings on the race scale

alternate racial traits
flight speed decreases to 30 average but land speed increases to 30
bite attack that replaces natural armor 1d6 damage
hybrid resistances gain resistance 5 to two elements replaces resistance and natural armor
darkvision 120 replaces darkvision 60 and resistances

feats
tail attack feat grants 1d6 tail attack
breath weapon that does 1d6 plus 1d6 per 2 levels plus con modifier 3/day either 30 foot cone or 60 foot line
resistance increase feat increases your resistance to 15


I'd suggest giving a glide speed for the first few levels and then a fly speed starting at level five.

I also think a breath weapon is generally a mediocre use of an action in combat, so I wouldn't worry about it being too unbalancing.


Could someone give me a link to Glide the way you guys are using it? Because I can't find it.


Under Movement Racial Traits:

PRD wrote:
Gliding Wings (3 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race take no damage from falling (as if subject to a constant nonmagical feather fall spell). While in midair, members of this race can move up to 5 feet in any horizontal direction for every 1 foot they fall, at a speed of 60 feet per round. A member of a race with gliding wings cannot gain height with these wings alone; it merely coasts in other directions as it falls. If subjected to a strong wind or any other effect that causes a creature with gliding wings to rise, it can take advantage of the updraft to increase the distance it can glide.


Thank you. Can't believe I didn't look under the Building New Races section. XP


Heather 540 wrote:
Could someone give me a link to Glide the way you guys are using it? Because I can't find it.

i wouldn't bother with it glide is a garbage ability


Lady-J, what's the name of the breath weapon feat you put down? I want to make a note of it.


Heather 540 wrote:
Lady-J, what's the name of the breath weapon feat you put down? I want to make a note of it.

idk i was just gona call it breath weapon, its not a real feat its something i put together to give it some racial feats to go along with the alternate racial traits and the overhaul to the race


Oh, ok.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Our flying races all get nailed by the wings cocking up armor use and some magic items.

1.Only Ggekar aren't affected by heavy armor, but think levitating Dwarves for a start. Then again, they rarely need a climb skill.
2.The several flying Elf races aren't really able to wear heavy (and sometimes medium) armor.
3.All 'winged' types have issues with size and how much room is needed. Except a few, mostly with tiny 'cosmetic' wings.
4.Several gain flight by character level and none start at the npc's ability.
5.Several are under-sized, Elves being the only exception I can think of.
6.There are feats that allow certain Aasimar to 'manifest' wings. They do not get them 'free'.
7.Dragon descended races have certain feats that allow them to emulate Dragons in flight, armor, saves and other abilities. By L20, specializing, you still make a crummy Dragon. Don't give up the Day job.


Lady-J wrote:
*Thelith wrote:

Dragonkin adds up to be a 9 rp race.. which is on par with most standard races.

Fly is 4 rp for 30ft clumsy, glide is 3.

Bite is 1 rp for 1d3 dmg.

If you want it to be on par with normal races you can't give it much without taking stuff away.

dragon kin adds up to like 6 race points not 9

ability score +0
speed -1
language +0
darkvision +2
skill bonus to 2 skills +2
skill is always a class skill +1
natural armor +2
energy resist 2 to a single energy type would be like 0.25 race points

total race points 6.25 round down to 6

I used monstrous humanoid for +3 and resists started at 2 rp so that's the 9.


Bwang wrote:
7.Dragon descended races have certain feats that allow them to emulate Dragons in flight, armor, saves and other abilities. By L20, specializing, you still make a crummy Dragon. Don't give up the Day job.

I'm not trying to make a dragon though. I'm making a dragon person.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Heather 540 wrote:
Bwang wrote:
7.Dragon descended races have certain feats that allow them to emulate Dragons in flight, armor, saves and other abilities. By L20, specializing, you still make a crummy Dragon. Don't give up the Day job.
I'm not trying to make a dragon though. I'm making a dragon person.

Just trying to bleed out as much of what we did as you mighte be able to use.


A friend helped me work out the race points. This is what we have so far:

Humanoid (Reptilian): 0 points
Medium: 0 points
30' speed: 0 points
Standard ability score array (+2str, -2dex, +2cha): 0 points
Standard language: 0points
Darkvision: 2points
Bonus cantrip: No standard price for ability, going with 1 point.
Energy Resistance 2: 1 point
Natural Armor (+1 Natural Armor): 2points
Flight (40' fly speed, clumsy): 6 points
Total: 12 points

Alternate:
Bite and 2 claws, 1d4 each: +5, replaces Natural Armor, Cantrip, and Energy Resistance.

Everything except the Flight and the natural attacks came with the dragonkin already. I also dropped a bonus to Intimidate and Diplomacy that they had.

We're trying to work out a breath attack that's not super expensive but not garbage either.


Heather 540 wrote:

A friend helped me work out the race points. This is what we have so far:

Humanoid (Reptilian): 0 points
Medium: 0 points
30' speed: 0 points
Standard ability score array (+2str, -2dex, +2cha): 0 points
Standard language: 0points
Darkvision: 2points
Bonus cantrip: No standard price for ability, going with 1 point.
Energy Resistance 2: 1 point
Natural Armor (+1 Natural Armor): 2points
Flight (40' fly speed, clumsy): 6 points
Total: 12 points

Alternate:
Bite and 2 claws, 1d4 each: +5, replaces Natural Armor, Cantrip, and Energy Resistance.

Everything except the Flight and the natural attacks came with the dragonkin already. I also dropped a bonus to Intimidate and Diplomacy that they had.

We're trying to work out a breath attack that's not super expensive but not garbage either.

i would like to point out paizo overvalues flight with race points for the same amount of race points you can have at will fly spell so your entire party can fly at level 1


Ok, a breath attack that can be used once a day with 1d6 damage, Ref save for no damage, in a 15 foot cone or 20 foot line is 1 point.

To increase it to a 30 foot cone or 50 foot line is an extra point. Same with half damage on a Red save, increasing the damage by 1d6, and using it an extra time each day.

So, if I want it to be even a little viable, it would have to be at least 3 times a day with 3d6 damage and half damage on Ref save. Even without increasing its size, that's 6 points. Which is the same as the Fly Speed.

If I increase the size for a total of 7 points, the breath attack could replace Fly and the Cantrip. That way, the character couldn't have both natural attacks and a breath attack, or breath attack and flight.

Or, I use Lady-J's suggestion and make the breath attack a feat that only dragonkin can use. Maybe they would have to have a CL of 5 in order to take it. I would increase it to 4 times a day for 4d6 damage.


Following the guidelines a "standard" power level race can't have fly or at-will fly casting...


Well, I want them to be able to fly.


*Thelith wrote:

Following the guidelines a "standard" power level race can't have fly or at-will fly casting...

there are several "standard" races that get access to flight and a couple of them get it right off the bat there is no issue with races having flight at level one


I'm going to go with a breath weapon feat. 4 times a day at 4d6 damage. Still has to match the energy resistance type if they keep that trait. If not, they can pick any type. They have to have a caster level of 5 to take it.


I'm also going to switch the Str and Dex bonuses. A penalty to Dex is fine for a land-based race, but not so much for a flier. It's still zero points.


Heather 540 wrote:
I'm going to go with a breath weapon feat. 4 times a day at 4d6 damage. Still has to match the energy resistance type if they keep that trait. If not, they can pick any type. They have to have a caster level of 5 to take it.

scaling one would be better as it will still be useful at later levels, and it should be level 5 instead of caster level 5 as caster level makes no sense for something that would be a natural phenomenon, a bonus to str makes sense for a dragon like race you could just drop the dex penalty and be fine

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Race points aren't everything and the race creation guidelines are not substitute for race design.

Exactly what are you trying to balance this race against? The dragonkin are balanced against standard PC races. It's impossible to add a fly speed and a breath weapon without making this a huge buff to the race.


Cyrad wrote:

Race points aren't everything and the race creation guidelines are not substitute for race design.

Exactly what are you trying to balance this race against? The dragonkin are balanced against standard PC races. It's impossible to add a fly speed and a breath weapon without making this a huge buff to the race.

she said she is making the breath weapon a feat so wipe that off the table and there are several races that can get flight and a couple of them get it at level 1


Lady-J wrote:
Scaling one would be better as it will still be useful at later levels, and it should be level 5 instead of caster level 5 as caster level makes no sense for something that would be a natural phenomenon, a bonus to str makes sense for a dragon like race you could just drop the dex penalty and be fine

I'm not sure how I would make a scaling feat attack.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I would drop the caster level requirement. A breath weapon would be a nice, versatile option for a non-caster. In fact, I would almost suggest base the scaling damage be based on BAB: Maybe 1d6 per point of BAB? Usable every 1d4 rounds, for a total number of times per day equal to Con bonus (minimum 1 per day). Either a 15 foot cone or 30 foot line, with feats to increase range/area of effect, frequency, etc.

I would also keep Str +2, Cha +2, Dex -2 as a balance issue, especially if they also get +1 natural armor.

For flight, I would give them a base flight speed of 20 feet, clumsy maneuverability, and let them take feats to improve this (10 feet and 1 maneuverability class per feat taken).


I'm not sure. It would be pretty powerful for a full BAB character. A level 10 fighter would be doing 10d6 damage with every hit.


Heather 540 wrote:
I'm not sure. It would be pretty powerful for a full BAB character. A level 10 fighter would be doing 10d6 damage with every hit.

that's a non issue really, a level 10 blaster sorc will be doing 2-3 times that in a 20 foot radius from several hundred feet out


True.


But it's very good for a non caster to have 10d6 of an elemental type that affects an area. Too good. Especially at low levels.


*Thelith wrote:
But it's very good for a non caster to have 10d6 of an elemental type that affects an area. Too good. Especially at low levels.

level 10 is not low level......


Also true. I still would make the minimum level to take the feat 5, whether I make it scale or not.


Heather 540 wrote:
Also true. I still would make the minimum level to take the feat 5, whether I make it scale or not.

just to let you know getting a breath weapon b4 level 5 wouldn't be that big of a deal, kobolds have a feat to get a breath weapon all tho it only has one use per day they can get it at level 3 i think

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A breath weapon is essentially burning hands and a magus isn't really over powered at 1st level.


I just don't want to overpower anything, so I'll think about I want to make it some more.

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