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Glad to hear OP, especially online is giving you an outlet to play. I'm sure the Jeese and his team of online VOs are happy to know it and you can always reach out to them if you are experiencing problems with any specific players. Style conflicts aside, if someone is being rude or displaying other inappropriate behavior, we would rather address the issue than allow it to continue and possibly ruin the experience of other players in the future. Our community is only as strong as the people in it.
Rules in our campaign do not always make sense to everyone's preferences. For the most part we have to deal with that. Its especially problematic if the perceived problem stems from the rule as written in the published book. OP tries not to change the fundamental material of a game mechanic, moreso just how it interacts with OP. So, we would tend not to change the cast of an item. That kind of problem lies more with the design team and not the development team working specifically with OP.
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Courtier's Outfit is legal, and is not a one time use item.Nah the Cortier's Outfit with Fashionable Accessories from Street Heroes.
The Fashionable Accessories grant a +2 to Diplomacy for that region for 2d4 months. That's the part that's not PFS viable.
true, it's that an eternity of time passed for all pfs people in an instant between missions and thus the effects wear off after the mission. The trade off of having time to naturally heal all wound and ability damage and downtime and all the stuff that works by ruling this way.
And for 20 gp they are cheap enough to buy whenever you want them for a mission, just the price of a decent day job.
Which consumable is cheaper than 20gp for this effect?
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A negative level is one of the very few things that persist beyond the scenario. Diseases don’t persist. Diseases must be cured at the end of the scenario or the character is marked dead.
There are a few permanent effects that persist, but most don’t.
That particular item feels out of place because it’s an odd duration for PFS. Most scenarios, as you said, will resolve in a day. There are some, though, that take place over the span of a few days. Also, you can play modules and adventure path parts for PFS credit, and some of those may include traveling to several parts of the same region. So the item would be potentially useful in those situations.
The indeterminate time between scenarios creates a few small issues like this. It also allows retraining that could take months or crafting or scribing of spells without having to track all the time each of those things would take.
Removing an item just because it doesn’t mesh in an ideal way with pfs rules often seems to result in someone asking why it was banned. Something this small doesn’t create any kind of imbalance, so they probably just left it legal for the rare instances where it would be preferable.
It’s not a perfect system, but it’s a choice of simplicity in an organized play environment over eliminating all the little odd corner cases.
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Courtier's Outfit is legal, and is not a one time use item.Nah the Cortier's Outfit with Fashionable Accessories from Street Heroes.
The Fashionable Accessories grant a +2 to Diplomacy for that region for 2d4 months. That's the part that's not PFS viable.
I can see how a GM could rule it that way. If you want to get the same effect, spend 50gp for a masterwork tool for diplomacy and call it jewelry. That is perfectly legal and permanent.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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I can see how a GM could rule it that way. If you want to get the same effect, spend 50gp for a masterwork tool for diplomacy and call it jewelry. That is perfectly legal and permanent.
Ultimate Equipment clarified that a masterwork tool should either have a limited number of uses or a limitation so it only applies to some uses of the skill.
I could see limiting it by area, so it only applies in LingShen as an example.
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Oh Perfume.
Does nearly the same thing, +2 to Diplomacy checks, for 1 GP/Dose. 1 dose lasts 24 hours, which is the length of most PFS scenarios.
According to the item description the common 1 gp and the rare 10 gp versions do nothing mechanically. The item description specifies that the exotic variants give that bonus, but those cost 100 gp per dose, and are sold in vials containing ten doses. So you need to pay in 1,000 gp increments for ten days of bonus.
This is another case where item descriptions can be a bit misleading.
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The Fashionable Accessories grant a +2 to Diplomacy for that region for 2d4 months. That's the part that's not PFS viable.
The problem here is that there is already WAY too much bookkeeping in PFS. Recording when and where you bought items is just (in general) far more hassle than its worth.
Personally, if I was running back to back sessions of linked Scenarios and somebody asked I'd do more or less what Bob suggested above : Buy this as a M/W tool, I'll use my GM license to allow it to work on all diplomacy checks in Tien, do NOT expect other GMs to necessarily allow it as it is definitely an edge case not covered by the rules.
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here's another thread where several of us discuss "Fashionable Accessories"...
LINK.
as I said over there...
If I was the table judge and you said you had this item for city XXX and you had bought it in season 6, and the scenario was set in city xxx and it was a 6-XX scenario, heck yeah! I might even give it to you for a season 5 or 7 scenario.
And after all - all circumstance bonuses are under the control of the judge and should be cleared thru them. The person running the table get's to decide if a circumstance bonus applies, so whenever you use something that gives a circumstance bonus you need to mention it them. That's one reason that circumstance bonuses are almost the only kind of bonus that stacks with itself. two different circumstance bonuses stack - as long as the judge says it does. SO even if you were to buy it at the start of the scenario you are in, in the correct city, the judge would STILL have to say it applies ... or not.
anyway - mention it to the judge -
"Hay, I got Fashionable Accessories clothing from Geb when I was here two games back! So, would that still give me a +2 on Diplomacy with the Count here? It's a total Bling necklace of ghouls teeth..."
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Getting away from the specific fashion thing...
I want to say that I really like the "2 months in" format for your review of PFS because it means you actually played it a few times. There are a lot of threads and posts out there from people that played once or twice and have reached a verdict, without really exploring the meat of the OP environment. And they're hard to have a conversation with, because the first thing I want to say is "try it again, table variation is a thing." So thanks for playing a few times and letting us know how you feel about things. This is the kind of feedback that helps us grow.
I think you've hit upon the core of PFS exactly. PFS is always there and ready to play which is nice, but there are some folks you'd rather not play with and some rules you sometimes rather weren't there.
And I think a lot of the die-hard PFS fans (like myself) got spoiled with a regular group of people that kick ass. I've had a few negative table experiences throughout my years with PFS, and if I imagine getting those tables at the start of my time with PFS instead of in the middle, I'd probably not be so enthusiastic about it as a whole. It's a matter of perspective. Given enough time the good far outweighs the bad. So I'm betting future experiences will be better than the negative ones you've had thusfar.
And as far as PFS specific rules go, I've adopted a "whatever" outlook on them in general. Follow the rules as best you can, correct folks that aren't aware of rule X, Y, or Z. If some weird case comes up in a game, I'll hash it out with my players/GM then. Otherwise, it often boils down to a "huh, neat," or "huh, that might have been overlooked." Just another odd landmark of the PFS landscape. Every now and then that really is a mountain up ahead, most of the times it's just a molehill. In the end this is a game, and if everyone at the table is having fun you are doing it right, so have fun.
So thank you for your earnest review of our OP environment and I hope you keep enjoying what PFS has to offer, which is in my mind a consistent platform for gaming. And it sounds like you're having fun already, so I'm speculating your enjoyment will continue to grow as you explore the various PFS storylines and high-level content it presents.
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Glad to hear things are going (mostly) well!
That doesn't help you now, and there aren't a whole lot of immediate solutions. You'll probably have more fun if you mix in some other character types, and your paladin will probably start feeling more useful when you either get him/her up into the 5-9 scenarios--or they start adventuring with some weaker PCs. A strong combat group should trivialize combat and have difficulty with skill checks, when you think about it. And since a lot of classes don't start dealing significant damage until later levels (4 or even 5!) the tier 1-5 stuff is rarely a challenge for a two-handed weapon user with 18 strength. You might have more fun with the 5-9s and you'll probably love some of the more recent 7-11 tier stuff, though.
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To address the "Table Variation" on that Dungeon:
You can always see within 5 feet there with any lightsource even without darkvision, can use dancing lights to give yourself 3x3 squares of vision, the trap does not do nearly that much damage, and you can always retreat if you'd like to come back more prepared with a potion of darkvison for 400 gp which will easily last you the entire dungeon.
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You assume that my Paladin can somehow cast dancing lights, or that we had someone who could. We did not. I didn't *have* 400 gp for a potion of Darkvision, though I could have (I suppose) spent 2 PP to do so. Even then you *shouldn't* have to do something like that on a quest intended for a level 1.To address the "Table Variation" on that Dungeon:
** spoiler omitted **
See, it's not a typical PFS scenario. First it's a module not originally written for PFS, but approved for you to play for in it if you wish, and secondly it's advertised as being a hard super dungeon. You should never be going into Emerald Spire with a fresh character. So I'll have to respectfully disagree that you *shouldn't* have to get that on a character without darkvision given that.
Glad to see that you're mostly having a good time with PFS so far though :)
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Emerald Spire isn't the super hard one. You're thinking of Thornkeep which is bizarrely difficult. Emerald Spire part 1 just requires investment in torches.
It's referred to as a "Superdungeon", "deadly super-adventure" and described as having "Lethal dungeon levels crafted by the creators of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and a host of fantasy gaming's greatest authors and designers".
I'd say that counts as being marketed as a hard super dungeon imo.
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It is great to see such thoughtful reviews of PFS from a new player's perspective. I encourage you to go and write reviews of the scenarios, which help authors see this feedback as well.
One of the issues with PFS as a campaign, is that it assumes that PCs are going to be "Pathfinders", which (according to in-game lore) are usually jack-of-all-trades who seem to be able to fight, complete skill challenges, and have just the right item at just the right time. But, not all classes can do all parts of that equally well. The early martial classes are severely restricted in skill points - I always use my favored class bonus for skill points for those.
The early skill-based classes are usually able to catch up on the combat side, due to the huge number of new feats, items, and ways to do damage that have been added to the game, but there is basically no way for low-skill characters to "catch up" in skills.
Consideration for Guide v10: All PCs, as Pathfinders, get a free skill point in one each of Int, Wis, Cha-based skills. (So, a Knowledge skill, something like Perception or Survival, and something like diplomacy or UMD). (Better yet, they also become class skills.) Sort of a Pathfinder template.
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Emerald Spire isn't the super hard one. You're thinking of Thornkeep which is bizarrely difficult. Emerald Spire part 1 just requires investment in torches.It's referred to as a "Superdungeon", "deadly super-adventure" and described as having "Lethal dungeon levels crafted by the creators of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and a host of fantasy gaming's greatest authors and designers".
I'd say that counts as being marketed as a hard super dungeon imo.
Thornkeep's the brutally hard one.
Emerald Spire is reasonable, but most people who have played the first level before seem to go in with a character with darkvision and then rebuild out of darkvision afterward. At least around here.
Plus the dungeon says light only travels five feet, which... if taken literally, makes the dungeon WAY HARDER than I think it's meant to be.
It's supposed to read "Illuminates a 5' radius" instead, but the literal version sure makes for an interesting module.
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Alternatively, all classes that have 2+INT are treated as 4+INT to reflect Society Training as the following Trait(Available only at character creation to all factions):
Trait:
Educated Pathfinder:
Prerequisite: INT 8, must be taken at first character level by a Pathfinder Society Agent.
By virtue of the in-depth training provided by the Pathfinder Society, you have a broader base of skills than one would typically expect for your class. Pick two Knowledge/Social Interaction skills. They are now both treated as Class skills. Gain two additional skill points each time you level in the initial class only to reflect this training.
Only classes that start with a minimum of skill (2+Int bonus) allow for this additional advanced education, and should one branch out their training, this bonus does not apply to other classes.
Just a thought, probably would need a lot of work, but at least having something to start from...
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Glad to hear things are going (mostly) well!
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah I was originally thinking of going straight Paladin, going the full Lay on Hands route. I am considering now, at level 5, instead of Weapon Focus (which was going to be 1 of only 2 combat feats) going Deific Obedience: Iomedae for not only the sweet +4 to Knowledge Nobility and +4 to Diplomacy but also to qualify for the Evangelist at 6th.
Going Evangelist for 4 levels will cost me effectively 1 Paladin Level (including 1 BAB), a few HP, but just 3 levels would grant me like +16 skill ranks?
In PFS that could give me a load of more options. I currently have:
[...]
Which might not seem like much, but it would make me more useful, but part of me also feels like it doesn't fit the character and I don't like making decisions solely for mechanics. I dunno,...
I love the Evangelist class myself--I have a cleric who plans on going that route, for much the same reason (2+ skill points per level is awful!). It's not for everyone, though. And I tend to lean toward skill points more than most people--like I almost always spend my FCB on skill points. It's usually a good decision in PFS, which rewards well-rounded characters.
I couldn't tell you what fits the character or not--I'm usually reluctant to break type, just like you are. An alternative might be to move your FCB into skill points from here on out, and you can also take the Cunning feat if you'd prefer not to miss out on a level of paladin (or the full base attack bonus that goes with it, which might be more important). Requires the Villain's Codex in some form, so it's not a cheap pickup, but Cunning solves a surprising number of problems I've found. And if your paladin is a two-handed weapon user, you might have the feats to spare?
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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It is great to see such thoughtful reviews of PFS from a new player's perspective. I encourage you to go and write reviews of the scenarios, which help authors see this feedback as well.
One of the issues with PFS as a campaign, is that it assumes that PCs are going to be "Pathfinders", which (according to in-game lore) are usually jack-of-all-trades who seem to be able to fight, complete skill challenges, and have just the right item at just the right time. But, not all classes can do all parts of that equally well. The early martial classes are severely restricted in skill points - I always use my favored class bonus for skill points for those.
The early skill-based classes are usually able to catch up on the combat side, due to the huge number of new feats, items, and ways to do damage that have been added to the game, but there is basically no way for low-skill characters to "catch up" in skills.
Consideration for Guide v10: All PCs, as Pathfinders, get a free skill point in one each of Int, Wis, Cha-based skills. (So, a Knowledge skill, something like Perception or Survival, and something like diplomacy or UMD). (Better yet, they also become class skills.) Sort of a Pathfinder template.
Paladins have the most support in terms of being a skill monkey class out of the earlier classes. The problem is that you have to know that such mechanics exist before you build the Paladin.
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Some work arounds for a melee character.
Always have a composite long bow as a backup, even if you have no feats to archery. Your smite is nice at a distance.
You're a paladin. You have lay on hands. Put that favored class bonus into skills.
Potion of fly, boots of striding and springing.
Dip a level in a skilled class, then concentrate the skill points in 1-2 skills. My best on this concept is my fighter 7 rogue 3 (intimidate build).
Think about 2-3 work arounds for different situations.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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On the topic of Paladin skills:
You could invest your FCB into another skill rank for a total of 4 per level. I have done that on my paladin.
If you own Villian's Codex, you could pick up the Cunning feat to get an extra skill rank per level. I did that on my Cleric (same problem, 2 skill ranks per level) and it really helped.
Lastly, early season scenarios tend to have less skill checks than later season ones.
That said, I generally prefer the later season scenarios because of the stories.
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From my experience and what is described above it isn't so much that everyone needs skills so much as.. make the combats better to bring them up to par and give everyone a chance to shine in the same scenario. The stories being told have gotten pretty good in recent seasons. The supporting combats in general aren't so challenging. Why limit it to one style of play or the other?
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I think a lot of that has to do with season 5. Season 5 started to experiment more with story, but kept the number and challenge level of the fights the same. As a result, there were some very long scenarios that season. Port Godless, for one. I think the 7-11 Tier was adjusted last season to feature fewer combats, because that tier was running long in seasons 6 and 7.
Some of the season 8 and 9 scenarios have ended up very short. Some I felt like the roleplaying could run long. On the Border of War has run long both times I GMed it. But for the most part, i hink the combats could last longer and they would still fit in 4-5 hours.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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The biggest problem I had with online play is that no one runs regular games and it's rare to find a 1-5 tier game.
I have a friend who's new to PFS and it's impossible for us to find a game because there's a huge reliance on pick-up games and almost everything that becomes available is a 3-7 or 7-11.
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HWalsh - I’m looking forward to playing the new evergreen. I haven’t had the chance yet. I liked From the Tome of Righteous Repose a lot (the season 8 3-7 evergreen). The combats in that are generally on the tougher side compared to other scenarios in that tier. Though a lot depends on which options the GM chooses. My sense from the blog about the new one is that there are more variable story elements as well, and I’m really curious to see how that works.
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The biggest problem I had with online play is that no one runs regular games and it's rare to find a 1-5 tier game.
I have a friend who's new to PFS and it's impossible for us to find a game because there's a huge reliance on pick-up games and almost everything that becomes available is a 3-7 or 7-11.
Have you tried requesting a tier 1-5? There are GMs that accomodate requests.
Hmm