BBEGs should have their own minions to take on the summons. If a BBEG doesn’t have minions, then he better have some serious area of effect attacks, like a dragon does.
And even then, the Dragons have smaller dragons or a warren of Kobolds or various other types of minions, too. The problem with summoning spells is that you basically turn a PC into an entire dungeon on legs. Even a necromancer can only have so many Hit Dice of minions, and those are significantly less portable and need to be prepared in advance instead of conjuring up the right thing for the situation.
As I said originally, it's not the raw power of the Summoner but just how much ammunition he has. The Summon Monster SLA on its own is a powerful but manageable ability. The Eidolon on its own is a powerful but manageable cohort. The spellcasting on its own is a powerful but manageable 6/9 level caster hybrid. Any two of the above would probably be fine to form the foundation of the class. All three was overkill, and gives the Summoner way too many resources for a single class.
Here's my problem with the two versions of the summoner
CHAINED
-In American RPG's there's a big focus on individuality. In a lot of American computer games you get to pick your name, sex, race, class, subclass, height, weight, f$+~ing blood type, etc. In contrast a lot of Japanese computer games put you in a narrative where your character has an established look, backstory, etc. Yes I know Pathfinder isn't a computer game and not all American/Japanese games adhere to this paradigm, but I dare say the origional version of the summoner was just too "American". It was pick your this and pick your that taken to its logical extreme. The result was a class where you could make a levitating boat or a futuristic robo spider or a five headed tiger man. And yes, this engendered some potential for exploitation. When your options are virtually unlimited you're gonna find a few ways to make something overpowered.
CHAINED
The chained summoner imposed totally arbitrary rules and aesthetic decisions on your eidelon. For example I tried to make a dragon like creature but the fire elemental type gave a fly ability that specifically stated it was magical and not wing dependant. So I figured I would go acid elemental instead and realized it got a burrow speed which was not in line with my concept at all. These are relatively minor examples but there was a lot of that.
Conclusion: the summoner pissed me off. Massive potential squandered. Twice. At least the APG was otherwise brilliant.
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One thing to note is that a Summoner who focuses on Summon Monster feels a bit more like a Sorcerer who happens to only cast Summon Monster X in their top spellcasting slot. Picking spells that age well (buffs, Grease, utility) means that you have a potent and versatile setup.
Mix this with a skill focused Eidolon and you have a really strong character. The Skilled evolution is amazingly powerful and I'm surprised no one talks about it. +8 to any skill is huge, and the minimal cost means the low evo pool with Unchained doesn't feel so claustrophobic.
This also has an added benefit of better PR in the community. After all, vicious pouncebeasts and memes about "ball of tentacles and three butts" get their fair share of sass but people are often surprised by an Eidolon that has Disable Device, Stealh, and a climb speed as their claim to fame.
So a battle would start with a charge and followed by a full-round attack:
Bite: +10, 1d6+10
Slam * 3: +10, 3d6+10Average damage is 13.5 + 61.5 = 75
.65(13.5) + .65(.05)(13.5) = 9.21375 * 4 = 36.855
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee +2 greatsword +16 (2d6+22/19-20) or
. . 2 claws +6 (1d6+9)
Special Attacks rage (14 rounds/day), rage powers (lesser beast totem[APG], powerful stance +2)
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.95(29) + .95(.1)(29) = 30.305
Barbarian averages slightly less damage vs CR 5 opponents (avg hp @ CR 5 is 55), has no need to declare a charge and is less affected by DR, and does not drop off as rapidly as opponents AC increases. Against a higher AC opponent, the barbarian can choose to charge, adding +2 to his to-hit.
Neither the eidolon nor the barbarian average damage will one-round an average CR 5 opponent.
All of these numbers change at 6th level, which is a break point for martial PC's, but not eidolons (who got their break point at 5th level). Vital STrike, Horn of the Criosphinx, iterative attacks, etc. all come online at 6th level.
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The chained summoner imposed totally arbitrary rules and aesthetic decisions on your eidelon. For example I tried to make a dragon like creature but the fire elemental type gave a fly ability that specifically stated it was magical and not wing dependant. So I figured I would go acid elemental instead and realized it got a burrow speed which was not in line with my concept at all. These are relatively minor examples but there was a lot of that.
Even if the wings have nothing to do with your flight, you can still have them and flap them while you fly. Just look at a Nalfeshnee. There's no way those tiny little wings have anything to do with their flight, but I can't imagine them doing anything other than flapping them REALLY REALLY HARD with this super strained look on their pig face every time they fly anywhere.
In my opinion the summoner would be less problematic with 1/2 bab and a choice of either eidolon or Summon SLA instead of having both.
As is he can have the eidolon stomp through the first encounters of the day and spam summons for the rest without any need to conserve power.
In my opinion the summoner would be less problematic with 1/2 bab and a choice of either eidolon or Summon SLA instead of having both.
The latter is already true:
Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned.
1/2 BAB is not that bad if you use primary natural attacks. At level 6 you are only one point of BAB behind 3/4 BAB, afterwards it slowly gets worse though - both when it comes to hitting and qualifiying for feats.
In my opinion the summoner would be less problematic with 1/2 bab and a choice of either eidolon or Summon SLA instead of having both.The latter is already true:
Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. Drawing upon this ability uses up the same power as the summoner uses to call his eidolon. As a result, he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned.1/2 BAB is not that bad if you use primary natural attacks. At level 6 you are only one point of BAB behind 3/4 BAB, afterwards it slowly gets worse though - both when it comes to hitting and qualifiying for feats.
The summoner still has the option to chose between the two of eidolon and SLA at any time. I would have them make the choice at Char Gen once and for all.
I could agree with the eidolon or the SLA being a creation choice. If the eidolon summoners didn’t have the summon SLA to fall back on, they’d be much more cautious with the builds, instead of always going glass cannon with their eidolons.
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If your game includes 9th-level casters, I just don't see why you'd consider the Summoner's level of power a problem.
If your game includes 9th-level casters, I just don't see why you'd consider the Summoner's level of power a problem.
Outside of clear exploitation I've never seen 9th level casters overshadow a melee character who still remains the focus of the put the bad guys down.
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If your game includes 9th-level casters, I just don't see why you'd consider the Summoner's level of power a problem.Outside of clear exploitation I've never seen 9th level casters overshadow a melee character who still remains the focus of the put the bad guys down.
No druids rocking the pouncing deathkitty? Or a huge wolf with half a dozen buff spells riding on it? Wild shape, etc?
In my opinion the summoner would be less problematic with 1/2 bab and a choice of either eidolon or Summon SLA instead of having both.
Tell you what. Give us APG Eidolons back and we'll call it even? Well, except for the 1/2 BAB part. I wanna have the option to ride my Eidolon into combat, darnit.
We can even keep the nerfed version of the Pounce evolution.
There should just be a separate class for fighting with an eidolon. Call it the Trainer. Drop the spells, but give it supernatural abilities to buff and heal its pet. Also give it basic martial proficiencies and teamwork feats it can share with its eidolon.
There should just be a separate class for fighting with an eidolon. Call it the Trainer. Drop the spells, but give it supernatural abilities to buff and heal its pet. Also give it basic martial proficiencies and teamwork feats it can share with its eidolon.
The Hunter does exactly this.
Except it is still a 6 level caster.
The hunter is to the druid, as the trainer would be to the summoner.
And I think dropping spells, for supernatural abilities would fit a certain flavor much better than the summoner does.
We might be able to be more original than teamwork feats for the trainer though. For instance, some sort of bond ability where the creature gets a bonus if you are very close to it or a bonus if you spend an action to focus on the creature. That way you could build for riding it or for standing back and letting it work for you.
I'd agree with the Unchained Summoner, but remember that the Base Summoner was essentially a 9th level caster hiding in a 3/4 BAB chassis with all of the early access spells he got.
This. It had the power of a full 9-level sorcerer/wizard (albeit ultra-specialized) smushed into 6 spell levels, letting them have their highest ability score be something other than the one they need for spellcasting and still using the same power of spells that a sor/wiz requires to fully invest in their main ability score.
The PU fix was definitely needed.
Neither the eidolon nor the barbarian average damage will one-round an average CR 5 opponent.
You ignored the (illegal) 3d6 slams, with those, his eidolon can very much one-round-kill an average CR5 monster. With (legal) 2d6 Slams, Haste, and charging, the Eidolon has an average DPR of 59.9, although that's still with the very unlikely +2 AoMF.
To be honest, I have no idea where your Barbarian's stats come from.My current Summoner's Eidolon at 5th level: +2 Belt, +1 AoMF; Pounce, Claws, Ability Increase (Str), Energy Attacks, Bite, Gore; Power Attack; Haste. That requires either Half-Elf or one Extra Evolution feat.
2 Bite +9 (1d6+14+1d6) ≈ 13.1 x 2
2 Claws +9 (1d4+10+1d6) ≈ 10 x 2
Gore +9 (1d6+10+1d6) ≈ 10.6
Against a CR5 monster (18 AC), that's 56.8 DPR on a full attack, or 66.3 on a charge. Of course, as it assumes the Summoner casts Haste, it's "only" three combats per day. 40 (full attack) / 47.3 (charge) without haste.
With Haste, a Barbarian (20 base Strength, +1 Furious Greatsword (no belt, so both spend 8k); Reckless Abandon; Power Attack) can kill an enemy in one full attack as well, though. (29.3 standard attack, 58.5 with Haste.)
All of these numbers change at 6th level, which is a break point for martial PC's, but not eidolons (who got their break point at 5th level).
At 6th level, my Eidolon gains a second Ability Increase (Str), while the Barb gains his iterative. Target AC is 19, target HP is 70.
Eidolon: 66.3 on full attack, 76.5 on charge. 46.8/54.6 without Haste.Barbarian: 50.8 on full attack, 81.6 with Haste.
The 6th level numbers show pretty well what I was previously talking about regarding outshadowing. With those two in the same party, i.e. with Haste, the Barbarian may feel pretty good - he does more damage on a full attack then the pouncing Eidolon, after all. Of course, the actual contribution would be 50.8 for the Barbarian and roughly twice that for the Summoner, but it doesn't feel that way, you roll your character's bonus attack from Haste, not the caster's player.
If the Summoner used enlarge Person instead of Haste (51.9/60.5 DPR on full attack/charge), the Eidolon would outdamage the Barbarian even on the second round. Right after the Barbarian got his "break point", i.e. his iterative, this wouldn't feel good for the player.
That also basically addresses NoTongue's remark: When the Fighter does all the damage, it might not matter that the Wizard did 80% of the work, and the Fighter did said damage while buffed and to debuffed and seperated enemies. The player will probably feel good, which is, after all, all that counts.
Of course, that's in combat. The real power casters have narrative power, which is mostly out of combat.