I rather like it. You lose a couple of Bonus Feats and Bravery, but you get some modest sneak attack (can be boosted with Accomplished Sneak Attacker) and a lot of poison tricks -- and the spit venom feat tree in the same book are all Combat Feats, so you can spit venom and blind, deal bleed, deal reasonable acid damage, and possibly even entangle the enemy all with one action. And you keep Weapon Training, Armor Training, and the majority of your bonus feats, so you're still a big, brawny brute.
The build I'd like to try with this is a Fighter (Venomblade) VMC Rogue with two-weapon fighting. Blind the other guy with your venom, then power at 'em with sneak attacks... except these are sneak attacks backed by full BAB and Weapon Training, so high accuracy. Eats up a lot of feats, but a fighter should still have enough feats left over even after VMC and the Spit Venom line to make TWF work.
I like it a lot, it's a good archetype
Well, let's see... Sneak Attack generally encourages TWF builds, since you add solid bonus damage to each strike. You don't get nearly as much Sneak Attack as a rogue (though I do think Accomplished Sneak Attacker is a must), but you have much higher accuracy and decent damage. So look for a weapon group that has at least one good light weapon in it, and as good a main-hand weapon as you can get -- I kind of like the axe group, battleaxe in the main hand, hand axe in the off-hand.
Alternatively, I think you can get a spear or quarterstaff that works like a double-weapon, possibly with Spear Dancer style, but I don't know much about those so I'd suggest you double-check.
Armor... stat-wise, you want high Con for DCs and high Strength for attacks, so your Dex is going to be pretty dismal. If you can wiggle your way to Dex 14, you can wear full plate armor with Armor Training 1 and no move speed reduction, and use your other Armor Training for AAT (skills, bonus AC, etc).
Traits... nothing stands out as notably better or worse. I might suggest going for one of the Will Save traits since you're locked out of Bravery and Armed Bravery.
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I also latched onto the archetype when I saw it! I was thinking of making a venomblade who looks like an eel and uses a bow and a rapier, probably dipping unchained rogue (sniper) to make Dexterity more viable and help with the sneak attack. Probably focus more heavily on point-blank shooting and venom-spitting, but switching to the rapier when absolutely necessary.
I'm not sure if it'd keep pace with a straight-up two-weapon venomblade, but I think it would be functional.
Although, when I think on it, the problem I see with trying to do a venomblade as a two-weapon-fighting build is the multiple attribute dependency. Two-Weapon Fighting has a Dexterity 15 prerequisite, which gets higher the deeper into the tree you go. I'd rather make even greater use of Dexterity at that point.
I also latched onto the archetype when I saw it! I was thinking of making a venomblade who looks like an eel and uses a bow and a rapier, probably dipping unchained rogue (sniper) to make Dexterity more viable and help with the sneak attack. Probably focus more heavily on point-blank shooting and venom-spitting, but switching to the rapier when absolutely necessary.
I'm not sure if it'd keep pace with a straight-up two-weapon venomblade, but I think it would be functional.
Although, when I think on it, the problem I see with trying to do a venomblade as a two-weapon-fighting build is the multiple attribute dependency. Two-Weapon Fighting has a Dexterity 15 prerequisite, which gets higher the deeper into the tree you go. I'd rather make even greater use of Dexterity at that point.
There do not seem to be any other discussions of this archetype
Some of the key issues have been mentioned already:
- MAD if you want to go for two weapon fighting as at least 15 dex is needed as well as both strength and con. Or dropping strength and swallowing feats for the finesse and two weapon lines (this hurts damage)
- Will saves - no armoured bravery and reliance on other attributes leads to low will (again unless you burn feats)
A point not mentioned:
- DCs of the Spit Venom - the feats should be allowed to help with this but as it stands Ability Focus is needed (assuming it is even allowed)
Keeping track this means the following feats are required / ideal:
- Spit Venom line
- Iron Will
- Ability Focus (can PCs take this?)
- Accomplished sneak attacker
- Supporting combat feats (lots in the case of dex / two weapon builds)
This is a stretch even for a fighter
It strikes me that going the two handed weapon + heavy armour route allows a lot of saving on feats and ability scores that will allow the saving throw holes to be plugged
(Didn't mean to resurrect a threat but as noted there are no other discussions of this archetype of example builds)
I just read up on it, and it's a pretty cool archetype.
Now I want to make one, the loss of bravery stings a little since Armed Bravery allows you to add it to your fort save, but I would still say the archetype is good over-all. Combine it with something like Mutation Warrior and you could have something really great. And with the ability to blind your opponent your sneak attack will work often, so it makes investing in Accomplish Sneak Attacker valuable.
Yeah, I think this would be a pretty awesome build.
I just read up on it, and it's a pretty cool archetype.
Now I want to make one, the loss of bravery stings a little since Armed Bravery allows you to add it to your fort save, but I would still say the archetype is good over-all. Combine it with something like Mutation Warrior and you could have something really great. And with the ability to blind your opponent your sneak attack will work often, so it makes investing in Accomplish Sneak Attacker valuable.
Yeah, I think this would be a pretty awesome build.
Fortitude doesn't strike me as the problem. Will really is though
I am becoming increasingly wary about building characters with glaring holes in defenses / saving throwsI do really like it though. But the feats required to fully take advantage of sneak attack (extra attacks) seem to sting.
But you mention mutation warrior and I assume that allows the drinker to grow claws and fangs which could be a useful way of building it
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Just so I'm sure, it's from Potions & Poisons, correct?
I thought I recognized the name, good book!
I just read up on it, and it's a pretty cool archetype.
Now I want to make one, the loss of bravery stings a little since Armed Bravery allows you to add it to your fort save, but I would still say the archetype is good over-all. Combine it with something like Mutation Warrior and you could have something really great. And with the ability to blind your opponent your sneak attack will work often, so it makes investing in Accomplish Sneak Attacker valuable.
Yeah, I think this would be a pretty awesome build.
Fortitude doesn't strike me as the problem. Will really is though
I am becoming increasingly wary about building characters with glaring holes in defenses / saving throwsI do really like it though. But the feats required to fully take advantage of sneak attack (extra attacks) seem to sting.
But you mention mutation warrior and I assume that allows the drinker to grow claws and fangs which could be a useful way of building it
I meant to say will save not fort save, mea culpa.
Don't look at the build as being pro-TWF. Sure, you could build that way to maximize damage, or you could build a two-handed weapon user with power attack that also happen to get sneak attack damage frequently increasing their already formidable damage.
Mutation Warrior does (but doesn't) allow you to grow claws. It gives you the alchemist's Mutagen ability, allowing you pump up your physical stat at the expense of your mental stats. It also allows you to do things like grow wings, extra arms (which don't grant extra attacks and are basically only useful for holding things), even one to grant claws attacks (but isn't useful unless you're totally building around natural attacks).