The Atheist Paladin: why Paladins should be free to be deity free


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

ut I'm not sure how you can be truthful, honorable and forthright and mislead people.

Give them the literal truth that gives the wrong impression. Usually LE's schtick

Which is how you do it. You aren't lying. You are being truthful.

"He went that way!"

*Points to the direction the guy ran, even though you know he's turning around to backtrack to a destination in the opposite direction.*

-----

Guard: "Did you see where he went?"

Torag Paladin: "Do you think I would let him get away if I had seen where he went?"

- You didn't lie. You asked a question. You are misleading, yes, but you at no point lied. This is not against the Paladin Code and it is not against the Torag code. It is VERY CLOSE to breaking the Paladin code, but stays just this side of legal, which is still not in conflict. Why? Because Torag's code says you *still* can't lie.

-----

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Be careful when saying something is definitively against or not against a paladin's code. As stated, the final arbiter of that is the table GM. You can certainly express your opinion, but if they disagree with you, that's it. At that point you have to defer to the GM's ruling or bail on the table. With the variety of styles of play and swathe of opinions on how alignment works, do not be surprised when sometimes you have to play your paladin a bit differently than you envision. YMMV

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

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So, a tangent.

Am I the only one who misread the title to say, “Why Paladins should be free to be Duty Free”? I was imagining a chain of Paladin-run duty free shops next to regular portals going to other planes, and selling all the useful basics like holy water, wands of air bubble, potions of fire resistance...

Also gifts for the discerning paladin to bring to their hosts. In the case of a visit to Abbadon, that might mean a holy dagger to the heart, but I could also see more pleasant host gifts like meditation crystals and seven color rings.

Oh, that was only me? Never mind, then! Carry on.

Hmm

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nah, it wasn't just you, and then my brain tried to wrap around the ramifications of Paladins of Kalistrade

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Nah, it wasn't just you, and then my brain tried to wrap around the ramifications of Paladins of Kalistrade

Sounds like well-armed Dutch Calvinists to me. Not that unthinkable..

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

If this ever WERE to be made legal the very first thing I would do is make a Paladin of Kalistrade just to demonstrate how absurd.

Honestly, the Paladin of Abadar is pretty close to this anyway though

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

Yep, Paladins of Abadar would certainly love to have a string of gift shops across the planes. I would love to come across one of these in an adventure.

Hmm

2/5 *

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Pretty sure Adabar would be the last god to sanction tax free shops.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

So, a tangent.

Am I the only one who misread the title to say, “Why Paladins should be free to be Duty Free”? I was imagining a chain of Paladin-run duty free shops next to regular portals going to other planes, and selling all the useful basics like holy water, wands of air bubble, potions of fire resistance...

Also gifts for the discerning paladin to bring to their hosts. In the case of a visit to Abbadon, that might mean a holy dagger to the heart, but I could also see more pleasant host gifts like meditation crystals and seven color rings.

Oh, that was only me? Never mind, then! Carry on.

Hmm

AM SUPPORT THIS.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

ut I'm not sure how you can be truthful, honorable and forthright and mislead people.

Give them the literal truth that gives the wrong impression. Usually LE's schtick

Worship Kelinahat? Lawful Good Imperial Archon Lord of Spies?

3/5 *

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How paladin's adhere to their codes always struck me as a bit of a by-product of who they follow and why.

Some examples I've seen of "Thou shalt not lie" from paladins.
---------------------------------------
Guard: Which way did he go?
Paladin: Did who go?
Guard: The Man!
Paladin: Can you be more descriptive?
*Continue along this route buying precious rounds of time.
Paladin: Yes, I did see a man, known as Max Smith, running in a north direction, wearing leather garb. He went that way.
----------------------------------------
Guard: Which Way did he go?
Paladin: I will not tell you.
Guard: What? Why not?
Paladin: I will not say.
Guard: I could have you arrested!
Paladin: That would be unfortunate, but possibly appropriate. Please note that I will not strike you, but I also will not move, you may have to carry me.
-----------------------------------------

I've seen the tricky kind to, though that tends to be more home games due to the alignment/god restrictions in PFS.

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I could also just as easily see a paladin staring at whoever is asking the question like they're completely off their rocker.

Not saying anything (because Heaven forfend the GM that accuses the one of either lying-by-omission or being deliberately misleading) just staring.

Guard: (after a few moments of stare and question) Can you speak?
Paladin: *stare*
Guard: Why won't you answer my questions?
Paladin: *silence, more stare*

It's not omission if no words are uttered.


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I think the best one I have come up with in a non-PFS game was this exchange:

Lord: "Where are the rebels hiding?"

Pal: "In their base."

Lord: "Do you know where their base is?"

Pal: "Yes."

Lord: "Tell me where they are then!"

Pal: "In their base."

Lord: (Raises an eyebrow) "Fine. Tell me where their base is?"

Pal: "Their base is where they are."

Lord: (Stares) "... Are you intentionally being obtuse?"

Pal: "Yes."

Lord: "Do you think you're funny?"

Pal: "Not particularly, no."

Lord: "Then you are intentionally avoiding answering the questions that I am asking?"

Pal: "Yes."

Lord: "I could have you thrown into a dungeon for this."

Pal: "I am aware of that High Lord."

Lord: "And this doesn't bother you?"

Pal: "I am not particularly pleased by the thought, but I find myself at a moral quandary regarding giving the information that you are seeking."

Lord: "... Explain."

Pal: "I happen to know for a fact that these Rebels, as you call them, are not the people responsible for the trouble that has befallen you. They are not the people attacking your guards, nor are they inflicting any direct harm on you. What they are doing is stealing supplies in order to feed themselves and their families. You are blaming them for crimes that they have not committed and would unleash a disproportionate response against them. I cannot allow this."

Lord: "Are you the person perpetrating these crimes against my men then?"

Pal: "No High Lord."

Lord: "Are you protecting the people who are striking against me then?"

Pal: "Yes High Lord."

Lord: "Then do you know where these people are?"

Pal: "No High Lord."

Lord: "Is this some kind of word game where you are using a technicality because you don't know their exact location?"

Pal: "In a manner of speaking High Lord."

Lord: "Explain yourself."

Pal: "Well, in truth I assume that they are at their base, but I do not know."

Lord: "Fine then! Tell me where their base is!"

Pal: "I cannot."

Lord: "Why not?!"

Pal: "Because you didn't say the magic word."

Lord: "What?! What is the magic word?!"

Pal: "Please."

Lord: (GM narrows eyes, murmurs, "You've been watching Ghostbusters again haven't you?" I grin.) "Fine. PLEASE tell me where their base is."

Pal: "I cannot."

Lord: "... Why?"

Pal: "Because they are well aware by now that you have captured me, based solely on how long I have been talking to you. I assume that they will have already moved to a new base by now, and as such I don't know where the new base is as I am not a member of their group."

Lord: "You aren't a member of their group?"

Pal: "No High Lord. I simply encountered them at the brawl in the market place. They told me to meet them at their base and told me where that base was. I have stalled you for at least 30 minutes and as such I assume that they have already moved to a new location."

Lord: "Then can you tell me where the location that they told you to meet them is?"

Pal: "Certainly. At their base."

Lord: "Which is?"

Pal: "Oh, at that tavern right down the road from here. The one that, based on the plume of smoke in the air, is undoubtedly on fire."

Lord: "Throw him in the dungeon!"

-----

I was later sprung by the party. It was my first session with the group. I hadn't actually met them yet aside from being told to meet them at their bar.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

GM_Starson wrote:

How paladin's adhere to their codes always struck me as a bit of a by-product of who they follow and why.

Some examples I've seen of "Thou shalt not lie" from paladins.
---------------------------------------
Guard: Which way did he go?
Paladin: Did who go?
Guard: The Man!
Paladin: Can you be more descriptive?
*Continue along this route buying precious rounds of time.
Paladin: Yes, I did see a man, known as Max Smith, running in a north direction, wearing leather garb. He went that way.
----------------------------------------
Guard: Which Way did he go?
Paladin: I will not tell you.
Guard: What? Why not?
Paladin: I will not say.
Guard: I could have you arrested!
Paladin: That would be unfortunate, but possibly appropriate. Please note that I will not strike you, but I also will not move, you may have to carry me.
-----------------------------------------

I've seen the tricky kind to, though that tends to be more home games due to the alignment/god restrictions in PFS.

My favorite time I ever honorably mislead someone was when I managed to out Kuthonite a Zon Kuthon worshiper.

NPC: Those are nice scars and all but you know that's not what I'm talking about.
Paladin: *sigh*
Me (ooc) I don't want to fight her so here's an idea. I take a knife from the tavern and in front of her jam the thing into my hand as hard as possible.
GM: Roll damage
Me: 8.
GM: You drive the knife so deep that it sticks into the table. The normally dour lot of Kuthonites all turn to look at you with a surprised look on their faces.
Paladin: Is that good enough?

The Exchange 4/5

Took mine into bloodcove once. Real sneaky mission. Took a vow of silence before entering and chose to guard our spokes person. Now that was tough, to sit there in game for 4 hours and not speak. First words out of mouth outside of town." Your a slut". Enjoyed the game, but dont recommend playing that one with a palidan.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

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Really looking forward to the vindictive bastard. ^_^

"Yeah, I lied to protect my friends. Why shouldn't I?"

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:

Really looking forward to the vindictive bastard. ^_^

"Yeah, I lied to protect my friends. Why shouldn't I?"

Is this a new archetype? What does it trade out?


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:

Really looking forward to the vindictive bastard. ^_^

"Yeah, I lied to protect my friends. Why shouldn't I?"

Is this a new archetype? What does it trade out?

Oh ho ho

(it modifies/replaces everything except spells and the early auras)

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Is this a new archetype? What does it trade out?

It's one of the ex-archetypes from Antihero's Handbook. You lose most of your paladin abilities by virtue (or lack thereof) of being an ex-paladin, but it patches it with a bunch of spiffy stuff.

I don't know if it's any good, but I'm certainly excited regardless. Then again, I like the phantom thief archetype, so my opinion is probably invalid.


You get Find Friend, Smite A#+#!#$, no you don't get to keep Divine Grace, Diehard, Stalwart, Solo Tactics plus bonus feats for it, can grant allies some of your smite bonus, and as a capstone whenever an enemy kills one of your allies or knocks you unconscious you can add a disintegrate to your next attack.

And no, I'm serious. you don't get to keep Divine Grace. Or Lay on Hands.


Kalindlara wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Is this a new archetype? What does it trade out?

It's one of the ex-archetypes from Antihero's Handbook. You lose most of your paladin abilities by virtue (or lack thereof) of being an ex-paladin, but it patches it with a bunch of spiffy stuff.

I don't know if it's any good, but I'm certainly excited regardless. Then again, I like the phantom thief archetype, so my opinion is probably invalid.

I'm having a blast with mine ^w^

And I like Phantom Thief too (and I don't care for Rogues).


It's probably my second favourite paladin Archetype after Tortured Crusader (Faithful Wanderer coming in third).

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

Not familiar with the faithful wanderer...

Silver Crusade

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Kalindlara wrote:
Not familiar with the faithful wanderer...

It's from People of the Wastes. Gain the aura of wherever you are, Favored Enemy vs the normal suspects, Hide in Plain Sight, and MOAR SKILL POINTS!

Silver Crusade

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A visual representation

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...is that a multi-class Shifter Gunslinger?

*ducks*

Silver Crusade

No, owl.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Rysky wrote:
No, owl.

That was 4 days ago...

*ow ow ow sorry ow ow ow*

Silver Crusade

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:
No, owl.

That was 4 days ago...

*ow ow ow sorry ow ow ow*

>_<


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Rysky wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Not familiar with the faithful wanderer...
It's from People of the Wastes. Gain the aura of wherever you are, Favored Enemy vs the normal suspects, Hide in Plain Sight, and MOAR SKILL POINTS!

Unfortunately, by hiding in plain sight you have lied to people’s eyes about where you actually are and thus you fall.

You vindictive bastard, you.

1/5

Kalindlara wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Is this a new archetype? What does it trade out?

It's one of the ex-archetypes from Antihero's Handbook. You lose most of your paladin abilities by virtue (or lack thereof) of being an ex-paladin, but it patches it with a bunch of spiffy stuff.

I don't know if it's any good, but I'm certainly excited regardless. Then again, I like the phantom thief archetype, so my opinion is probably invalid.

I really like the look of it, but am not clear if you can take it from level 1 or not - do you have to play as a paladin, then fall and get the archetype (changing god and alignment in the process), or is that assumed to have happened off-screen in the character's past?

Silver Crusade

Neriathale wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Is this a new archetype? What does it trade out?

It's one of the ex-archetypes from Antihero's Handbook. You lose most of your paladin abilities by virtue (or lack thereof) of being an ex-paladin, but it patches it with a bunch of spiffy stuff.

I don't know if it's any good, but I'm certainly excited regardless. Then again, I like the phantom thief archetype, so my opinion is probably invalid.

I really like the look of it, but am not clear if you can take it from level 1 or not - do you have to play as a paladin, then fall and get the archetype (changing god and alignment in the process), or is that assumed to have happened off-screen in the character's past?

I’d say you could have fallen in the past, you’d just have to chat with the GM about it. The only requirement is that you did fall. Just like you can start play at level 1 with a Lawful Barbarian or Chaotic Monk as well.

Sovereign Court *

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Lau Bannenberg wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Whats the absolute contradiction you're seeing Lau?

The context is people asking about the alternate paladin codes as if they replaced the whole of the CRB paladin code. I don't think they should; they should add to them and provide context and focus to them. Only if they actually clash should you take the code of your specific deity over the generic paladin code.

The point is that outright contradictions between the CRB base paladin code and deity-specific paladin codes are extremely rare. The only thing that springs to mind is:

CRB Paladin Code wrote:
act with honor (not lying, not cheating,
Inner Sea Gods Torag Code wrote:
I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others if need be.
It goes to great length to say it's not a contradiction, but I'm not sure how you can be truthful, honorable and forthright and mislead people.

The simple answer here is authors screw up their logic just like everyone else. Mistakes happen. You cannot be forthright and still mislead people. If you are delving into technicalities, you have stopped being forthright.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Paladins need deities. The second quote linked, a quote by mister Jacobs, is a direct reply to a question about Gray Paladins. You asked this question, so I am not going to rehash it, but he replies about Gray Paladins needing a Deity as a specific set of paladins, but ignores the part of the rules for them that states:

Rules text for Gray Paladin wrote:
Alignment: A gray paladin can be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, though she must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.

This states that Paladins need a deity, specifically one of Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Lawful Neutral Alignment. While this isn't specifically stated in the core book, neither is it contradicted. Paladins are divine casters. Read their description from the Core rulebook:

Core Rulebook Paladin Description wrote:

Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine.

Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and
lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and lawbringers,
paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but
to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve.
In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of
morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness,
these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them
in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent,
and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might
lead them into conf lict with the very souls they would
save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark
temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to
bring about a brighter future.

What about that indicates in anyway that there are atheist paladins, or ones that choose to not to follow a god? They are Holy Champions. Not Fighters with cool powers cause I'm LG nanana.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It is required in PFS to worship a deity (with attendant benefits and drawbacks) to gain 'divine power' for your 'divine class'.

...that hasn't changed, has it?

Silver Crusade 2/5

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


It is required in PFS to worship a deity (with attendant benefits and drawbacks) to gain 'divine power' for your 'divine class'.

...that hasn't changed, has it?

Some classes, such as the Oracle, are not required to worship a deity. In the Oracle's case, the character might not know the source of the divine casting ability.

Character Creation Appendix of RGG, season 9:

6. RELIGION
Characters can worship any deity listed in the table of
gods in the Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The
Inner Sea World Guide, Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Gods
and Magic, or any other source listed in the Additional
Resources document.
Characters with any number of levels in any of these
classes must select a deity.
• Clerics, inquisitors, paladins, and warpriests.
• Cavaliers and samurai who belong to the order of
the star.
• Any character who chooses a feat or trait tied to a
religion or deity.
• Any character who chooses a class archetype or prestige
class that specifies a deity in its prerequisites.

This list is not exhaustive, and the Additional Resources
document is updated with new classes, archetypes, and so
on that require the worship of a deity as new Pathfinder
RPG sources become available. As a general guideline, if a
character receives any mechanical benefit connected to a
deity, that character must worship the appropriate deity.
Characters who do not receive powers from a divine
source may worship a deity, be agnostic, or worship no
deities at all.
Regardless of class, each character must have an
alignment within one step of her deity’s alignment.
For characters who can channel energy, their deity’s
alignment determines whether they can channel positive
or negative energy—those who worship good deities
channel positive energy, while those who worship evil
deities channel negative energy. If a character worships
a neutral deity, the character’s player chooses which
energy type her character channels. Once chosen, the
type remains the same for the rest of the character’s time
in the campaign.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Cleric: I believe in something

Oracle: Something believes in you

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Paladin was brought up, and Paladin is on that list.

Grand Lodge 2/5

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Quintin Verassi wrote:

Paladins need deities. The second quote linked, a quote by mister Jacobs, is a direct reply to a question about Gray Paladins. You asked this question, so I am not going to rehash it, but he replies about Gray Paladins needing a Deity as a specific set of paladins, but ignores the part of the rules for them that states:

Rules text for Gray Paladin wrote:
Alignment: A gray paladin can be lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good, though she must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.

This states that Paladins need a deity, specifically one of Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Lawful Neutral Alignment. While this isn't specifically stated in the core book, neither is it contradicted. Paladins are divine casters. Read their description from the Core rulebook:

Core Rulebook Paladin Description wrote:

Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine.

Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and
lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and lawbringers,
paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but
to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve.
In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of
morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness,
these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them
in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent,
and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might
lead them into conf lict with the very souls they would
save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark
temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to
bring about a brighter future.

What about that indicates in anyway that there are atheist paladins, or ones that choose to not to follow a god? They are Holy Champions. Not Fighters with cool powers cause I'm LG nanana.

Outside of PFS Paladins 100% do not have to worship a god. Literally nothing in the writeup says they gain their powers from a god, simply that they are blessed with power. Additionally, the creative director from Paizo himself has repeatedly said that Paladins do not inherently need a god in Golarion. And saying that they need a god because they're divine casters isn't much of an argument. Look at Oracle and Shaman.

I'm not advocating for godless Paladins in PFS as I personally wouldn't play one and really don't care. But they absolutely exist in setting.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Cleric: I believe in something

Oracle: Something believes in you

Soviet Pathfinder?


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Cleric: I believe in something

Oracle: Something believes in you

"Don't believe in yourself! Believe in me! Believe in the Cayden who believes in you!"

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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Dang it. Beat me by half an hour.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Church of Cayden, where the holy spirit is 160 proof.

Grand Lodge 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Church of Cayden, where the holy spirit is 160 proof.

“I’ll drink at dat,,, “

- Boomstick McCracken, Inquistor of Cayden


Honestly, I think a Paladin is most devoted to their ideals and that the type of person that becomes a Paladin is naturally inclined to follow a deity that exemplifies those ideals. A deity who exemplifies those ideals (and, by extension, their followers) is also inclined to aiding that sort of person and might even influence things to show them toward their religion.
The restriction on PFS is probably to make mechanics more uniform and understandable, and the in-character likelihood of a Paladin not directly having a deity is so slim it won't affect most players (unless, of course, they are the type of player who wants to mechanically play a Paladin but doesn't want to actually play a Paladin, but that's not really part of my point).

4/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Church of Cayden, where the holy spirit is 160 proof.

Or possibly stronger.

2/5 *

Did they OP ever say why he wanted an Atheist paladin?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

I would guess because he doesn't like the options available from the PFS legal deities. Either he wants to have no deity and just follow the basic paladin tenets or select a deity that is not LG, LN, or NG.

3/5 *

Bloodrealm wrote:

Honestly, I think a Paladin is most devoted to their ideals and that the type of person that becomes a Paladin is naturally inclined to follow a deity that exemplifies those ideals. A deity who exemplifies those ideals (and, by extension, their followers) is also inclined to aiding that sort of person and might even influence things to show them toward their religion.

The restriction on PFS is probably to make mechanics more uniform and understandable, and the in-character likelihood of a Paladin not directly having a deity is so slim it won't affect most players (unless, of course, they are the type of player who wants to mechanically play a Paladin but doesn't want to actually play a Paladin, but that's not really part of my point).

Eh, I disagree with this point. Because Honestly, one of the main reasons I haven't played a Paladin yet in PFS is because of the god restriction. I don't want to tie myself down to the inevitable "But would that be good from Iomedae's perspective?" question. I like being a 100% goody two shoes paladin. Hero, all around good person, and does the right thing, even if the gods themselves say he should otherwise.

I don't wanna play a edgelord paladin, I just think it'd be nice to be devoted to good and righteousness. I also may have a bias on this issue though, having been exposed to to many cases of "Is paladin of x god" being used by GMs as "Gotcha's" to make paladin's fall or to set up "MORAL QUANDARIES!" over whether or not I should follow a gods orders or save orphans or some such.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My experience playing a curmudgeonly paladin grandmother of Andoletta is that for the most part, folks appreciate the rp and the fact that she *lives* the part, not for any sort of mechanical benefit (though some would argue that being a non-fallen Paladin IS the mechanical benefit).

Seemingly harmless, nice to get along with, makes strong tea... but Heaven help anyone who injures one of her 'fledglings' on a mission, or even threatens to.

As an aside, I've found playing a paladin in PFS play is easier path than trying to do it in a home game -- none of the group dynamics in a 'home' campaign ever seem to 'fit', but in PFS it works better, in part because there *is* a check on the GM should they abuse their 'table-power'.

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