Which is better for damage dealing between these two? And overall as a class. Is either one viable?
The ninja is good, but is entirely reliant on invisibility after level 10. Against foes who can ignore invisibility, he is kind of useless at high levels.
The unchained rogue has a few more tricks and can support the party a bit with his debufs. He's probably less powerful than a ninja against many enemies, but isn't invisibility reliant. The unchained rogue's weakness is that he needs to get that first sneak attack in to apply his AC and Attack debuffs, and that can be difficult.
Those are the short descriptions of the classes at least. They're both playable (though not powerful). In theory they do the same amount of damage if the ninja finds a method for dex to damage. The unchained rogue has a slight advantage because his debuffs help the rest of the party as well.
The ninja is in a sad place right now. He was a very sleek upgrade to the rogue in his time, but with Unchained Rogue now existing the comparison has skewed the other direction. The ninja does have some unique abilities in his ninja tricks, and to an extent they do give the class some enduring relevance, but the sheer amount of power he loses out on in comparison to URogue makes it very hard to justify playing one.
As Matrix Dragon indicates, the ninja is very dependent on invisibility and largely rendered impotent against creatures that can see him when invisible. The URogue has a significantly higher baseline damage output thanks to finesse training, making him much more reliable in situations where he can't be sneaky.
Hmm sounds like a weaker class unfortunately.
If it's not PFS, you could talk to your GM and ask him to allow an "Unchained Ninja". My gaming group does that and it turned out to be a pretty functional and balanced class. Although his saves are still quite bad. :/
If it's not PFS, you could talk to your GM and ask him to allow an "Unchained Ninja". My gaming group does that and it turned out to be a pretty functional and balanced class. Although his saves are still quite bad. :/
Yea, technically the Ninja is just a really big rogue archetype, so in a home game there isn't really any reason to not allow it.
I've allowed an "Unchained" Ninja in a past campaign and we didn't have a problem with them. We played that campaign from 1st to 7th level.
However as two separate classes, I consider the Unchained Rogue to be vastly superior.
I've allowed an "Unchained" Ninja in a past campaign and we didn't have a problem with them. We played that campaign from 1st to 7th level.
However as two separate classes, I consider the Unchained Rogue to be vastly superior.
Aside from the ki pool the unchained rogue is just simply better than the ninja.
Ninja is best built as a brute. I.e. STR based two hander. The Ki-Pool Extra attack is just so good for such builds. Such a build will want the scout archetype. That way you can easily set up devastating single attacks on a charge and be equally lethal when full attacking.
For pure consistent damage such a build is superior to the unchained rogue.
If you're a halfling with a no-sweat 16 Cha without being MAD, ninja is just a plain good two-level dip that'll grant four extra attacks, one per round, per encounter (which is usually enough for most). Then you spend some time camped out over your meditation crystals to get the ki back. -- Works really good mixed into paladin (where the traded-away Evasion isn't as big a deal since LoH will be plentiful).
ninja is just a plain good two-level dip that'll grant four extra attacks, one per round, per encounter (which is usually enough for most). Then you spend some time camped out over your meditation crystals to get the ki back.
Meditation Crystals can only be activated by a Cleric by expending one use of channel energy. That's not going to be feasible in every group, and you certainly aren't going to have enough uses of channel energy lying around to recharge 4 ki points every combat encounter.
They're only 100gp each, and Paladins have Channel. Buy a bagful and they'll last the adventure, then recharge them on down-time.
Paladins have to expend two uses of Lay on Hands every time they channel. It's certainly an option, but it's going to cost you all of your daily LoH uses to do it, and you can't really do it more than once per day.
As for stockpiling, the charge only lasts for 24 hours. While you could convert unused LoH uses at the end of day into charged meditation crystals for use the following day, that still limits you to stockpiling at most enough to recharge your ki fully once.
To clarify, I'm not saying this is a bad combo, it's just situational. If you're not multiclassing Paladin you're dependent on helpful party members, and you're still limited by the class feature that's charging the crystals. The gold cost is nominal and isn't the real limiting factor here.
Ninjas are great multi classed with paladins. Full plate and an extra attack with a two handed weapon. After 2 levels in each you're completely solid, you can continue either class or dip blood rager and take a prestige class. But that's a bit different from most people's idea of a ninja...
Ninja also benefits heavily from a dip into the Cha based monk archetype for two handed flurry plus ki-pool attacks.
Ninja VMC Monk is a possibility if you're interested in going unarmored and unarmed starting at level 3. You get the Monk version of Unarmed Strike (delayed 2 levels, so only okay unless you invest in something to make it good), Evasion (not bad), more Ki (this is where the good stuff is -- you can start spamming Ki abilities), a small AC bonus (not so great, but given that you will have trouble getting your AC up, and that it is 3X what the Dodge feat gives you, it certainly isn't terrible), and Improved Evasion (not bad).
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What I'm getting from this thread is that Unchained Rogues are technically better, but the Palanin is the true force for good in this universe.
UnRogue is better than Ninja, Ninja is better than CRB Rogue. Multiclassing and/or dipping is really the only reason to use Ninja since UnRogue came about.
Getting straight up killed by AoE damage is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a better choice than a lot of things out there.
Since unchained came out, I did away with the ninja and converted his ninja tricks into rogue talents/ki powers that the UCrogue/UCmonk now have access to.
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Getting straight up killed by AoE damage is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a better choice than a lot of things out there.
Getting straight up killed by fortitude-or-die effects or killing your party while under a confusion or dominate effect is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a worse choice than practically everything out there.
Getting straight up killed by AoE damage is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a better choice than a lot of things out there.
Getting straight up killed by fortitude-or-die effects or killing your party while under a confusion or dominate effect is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a worse choice than practically everything out there.
Twist Away?
Twist Away?Getting straight up killed by AoE damage is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a better choice than a lot of things out there.
Getting straight up killed by fortitude-or-die effects or killing your party while under a confusion or dominate effect is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a worse choice than practically everything out there.
That's of NO help on a 'save or die' type effect. It's only on attacks that have a reduced effect on a successful save.
Getting straight up killed by AoE damage is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a better choice than a lot of things out there.
Getting straight up killed by fortitude-or-die effects or killing your party while under a confusion or dominate effect is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a worse choice than practically everything out there.
Wait, hold the phones and stop the presses here folks, have we found the Holy Grail, a mechanism by which rogues will NOT suck in combat? -- All they have to do is fail a Will save and they're suddenly a 3-second nitro funnycar that TPKs their own party?
I gotta try one of these guys....
human, CE
str 20
dex 14
con 16
int 7
wis 7
cha 7
...That should do it.
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Vampire: "Ha! You look like a Core Rogue! That means you'll have terrible saves! I Dominate you! Make a Will save!"
Rogue: "Does a 12 pass?"
Vampire: "No! Now, I command you to stab the paladin! (You can make a second Will save if that's against your nature.)"
Rogue: "No, I'm good... But, can I get some flanking? Otherwise I can barely make a dent in his HP."
Vampire: "Sigh."
Rogue: "Also, I'm going to have a hard time hitting his AC. Any chance of a buff or two?"
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Vampire: "Ha! You look like a Core Rogue! That means you'll have terrible saves! I Dominate you! Make a Will save!"
Rogue: "Does a 12 pass?"
Vampire: "No! Now, I command you to stab the paladin! (You can make a second Will save if that's against your nature.)"
Rogue: "No, I'm good... But, can I get some flanking? Otherwise I can barely make a dent in his HP."
Vampire: "Sigh."
Rogue: "Also, I'm going to have a hard time hitting his AC. Any chance of a buff or two?"
Rogue: "Don't forget I NEED to buff my horrible AC too. And I can't afford poison, you have any?"
Vampire: "Sigh. Where's the animal companion? It's GOT to be better than this!"
Wait, hold the phones and stop the presses here folks, have we found the Holy Grail, a mechanism by which rogues will NOT suck in combat? -- All they have to do is fail a Will save and they're suddenly a 3-second nitro funnycar that TPKs their own party?
I could write something about tipping the scales from your party losing a member and the benemies gaining one. Or how you conveniently only talked about failed will saves and not about failed fortitude saves. Or about how evasion doesn't do anythign on a failed save, so it only helps if the party is spammed by low damage effects or your character has so low HP that he's unfit for play. I could even point to the "low will save" thread for dozens of examples. But I wont.
Because if you literally think that cRogue is good when it comes to saves because he has evasion, your either playing a completely different game where your GM keeps handling you with kid gloves (by not making you save against actually dangerous effects), or you're a troll.
In any case, I'm wasting my time here. Good day to you.
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Sounds an awful lot like some people in here have no idea how to play a rogue...I know, its hard...you have to actually think a little instead of just charging at the enemy and using your beat stick on them.
The only things my rogue character doesn't generally kill in a single round of combat are things which are immune to sneak attacks...and I have plenty of other tactics for those.
Speaking of bad will saves...guess who else gets the exact same will save progression...Fighters, Barbarians, Slayers...in fact pretty much every martial class. There are plenty of options for either boosting your saves, or simply making yourself immune to some of the nastier effects...try playing an Ifrit rogue with a Periapt of Health (You are now immune to Charm/Hold/Dominate Person and all diseases...aka 90% of the bad s!+* that take advantage of those bad saves)...buy a Wand of Neutralize Poison and use the UMD skill you should have maxed and that solves another...sure someone could use Dominate Monster on you, but if you are facing 9th level spells, there are far more dangerous options.
They aren't perfect by any means, but only people who don't know how to properly play them think they suck.
Sounds an awful lot like some people in here have no idea how to play a rogue...
It requires you and your party know how one works and also requires your DM let you get opportunities to sneak attack. Not every rogue get that combo.
Speaking of bad will saves...
The only reason will saves was brought up is comments like 'rogue is super, totally awesome because evasion!!!'. People were just pointing out that it wasn't that awesome.
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Or how you conveniently only talked about...Oh please. I made a *specific* point regarding the utility of Evasion (something rogues get and ninjas don't) immediately after a post contemplating ninjas -- and rogue-haters pour out of the woodwork to explain how I'm "conveniently" not mentioning all the other ways you can get killed.
failed will saves and not about failed fortitude saves.
My last sneak-attacker: halfling (racial bonus to saves) rogue(x)/paladin(2) putting that Cha score to further work. ("No way, Jose! When did they allow multi-classing in this game? That's something new, right? Which new book is it in, and how much? I hope this ain't gonna tear my wallet a new one....")
Actual fight with this character (Tier10 PFS mod): Party strolling through a big antechamber. Roll init. Opening salvo: Boss dumps a nasty status effect while his four mook sorcs hiding three stories up unload overlapping Fireballs.
*SUCK!**BOOM!**BOOM!**BOOM!**BOOM!*
-- Guess who made his saves and no took damage when everyone else was instantly half-dead and -2 or worse to everything?
And last I checked, bard, swashbuckler, and vigilante (among others) have garbage-tier fort saves but somehow manage to enjoy threads without being constantly highjacked by people complaining about that limitation.
In any case, I'm wasting my time here. Good day to you.
Well, bye....
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My local GM's go out of their way to make getting sneak attacks off difficult...any halfway intelligent enemy won't just stand between 2 people flanking them, they actually use tactics, etc.
I still manage to out DPR most of the other melee focused characters I play with in random PFS games. Even if I don't outshine them in damage, the debuffs I stack on things with debilitating injury and rogue's edge unlocked intimidation bring plenty to the party. Not to mention keeping the rest of the clueless adventurers from falling into every trap we run across.
When you add in multi-classing, Unchained Rogue can turn game-breaking. Mixing 4 levels of Unchained Rogue with the Hunter class and Boon Companion gets ridiculous at higher levels...+6 flanking bonus any time you and your AC threaten the same target (Outflank, Improved Outflank, Pack Flanking), any time either of you crits it provokes an extra AoO from the other...add in Paired Opportunist and things get really crazy.
TWF with Keen Kukri on the PC, mix with a Tiger (Or one of the dinosaurs if you really want to make your GM cry) With 3-4 attacks a round at 15-20 crit range on the PC (plus sneak/debilitating injury), then claw/claw/bite(grab)/rake/rake on the tiger...if you get a full attack chain off, even the BBEG in most games will be crying for its mommy.
If you didn't kill things so fast, it would be even more fun to grab the Pressure Points ninja trick, and debuff their Str into the toilet...watch as they can't even lift their weapon against you as you eviscerate them.
Sounds an awful lot like some people in here have no idea how to play a rogue...I know, its hard.
It's not that hard. The real problem is the inclination of the player to treat the class (indeed, any class) just as a DPR mechanism (and basically stop at that point) rather than as an encounter-solving total-package. (And I'd be a rich man if I had a nickel for every rogue concept I saw that was strength-optimized but didn't contain levels in a rage class to augment.)
It never ceases to amaze me that so many players simply refuse to talk to NPCs, or avoid extraneous fights versus lootless monsters by looking for paths around them or just throwing them some food. Rogues tend to be good at coming up with these solutions, provided they're not cha 7 humans played by int 7 humans.
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The only reason will saves was brought up is comments like 'rogue is super, totally awesome because evasion!!!'
Wow. Is that what it actually looked like to you when I wrote (verbatim quote post in its entirety): "Getting straight up killed by AoE damage is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think. So, core vanilla rogue remains a better choice than a lot of things out there." ...in a post right after one about ninjas (who don't get evasion)?
Jeesh....
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And last I checked, bard, swashbuckler, skald and vigilante (among others) have garbage-tier fort saves but somehow manage to enjoy threads without being constantly highjacked by people complaining about that limitation.
If you are talking about the class (as opposed to the archetype) you might want to check Skald again. Skalds get good Fort and Will saves.
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Personally, I prefer the Rogue to the Ninja because of Evasion and the ability to deal with magical traps. They fit my play style better.
Having said that, I really think they are different enough that a person's play style is going to determine which works best for them.
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Sounds an awful lot like some people in here have no idea how to play a rogue...I know, its hard.It's not that hard. The real problem is the inclination of the player to treat the class (indeed, any class) just as a DPR mechanism (and basically stop at that point) rather than as an encounter-solving total-package. I'd be a rich man if I had a nickel for every rogue concept I saw that was strength-optimized but didn't contain levels in a rage class to augment.
It never ceases to amaze me that so many players simply refuse to talk to NPCs, or avoid extraneous fights versus lootless monsters by looking for paths around them or just throwing them some food. Rogues tend to be good at coming up with these solutions, provided they're not cha 7 humans played by int 7 humans.
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The only reason will saves was brought up is comments like 'rogue is super, totally awesome because evasion!!!'Wow. Is that what it actually looked like to you when I wrote (verbatim quote post in its entirety): "Getting straight up killed by AoE damage is still actually a thing in this game, and it happens more often than you'd think. So, core vanilla rogue remains a better choice than a lot of things out there. in a post right after one about ninjas (who don't get evasion)?
Jeesh....
Rogues don't have any reason to boost charisma, and doing so can be a detriment because it eats into point buy that can be used for the wisdom and constitution you so desperately need to not die. Why would I ever pick a Rogue for my party face when I could take a Bard, or a Mesmerist, or an Inquisitor, or... You get the idea.
It's honestly hilarious that you bemoan players who see classes as a "DPR Mechanism", because basically the only thing the Rogue has is high DPR in ideal, theoretical circumstances. The Rogue's utility is abysmal compared to any of the good classes, from the Barbarian upwards.
Rogues don't have any reason to boost charisma, and doing so can be a detriment because it eats into point buy that can be used for the wisdom and constitution you so desperately need to not die. Why would I ever pick a Rogue for my party face when I could take a Bard, or a Mesmerist, or an Inquisitor, or... You get the idea.
Two of those three have forts saves no better than rogue, and none have Evasion or means of dealing with magical traps. They have decent amount of skill points, but not as many class skills.
Trade-offs, trade-offs....
It's honestly hilarious that you bemoan players who see classes as a "DPR Mechanism", because basically the only thing the Rogue has is high DPR in ideal, theoretical circumstances....In "ideal, theoretical circumstances" circumstances, the rogue swipes the trap-laden crown jewels solo and woos the princess into eloping without getting caught or even having to pull out a weapon. (The bard gets the girl but not the jewels, and a wizard would get the jewels but not the girl...although I suppose he could charm her. But it wouldn't be true-love.)
The Rogue's utility is abysmal compared to any of the good classes, from the Barbarian upwards.
Cha 7 barbarian gets neither the jewels nor the princess. I guess he could kill some guards before they swamp him and he's dragged off to the chopping-block.
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halfling rogue(x)/paladin(2): Fort and Will saves upped by 4+cha versus human rogue. 6+cha Will if your GM permits the broken RAW for 3rd-edition carry-over text for Circlet of Persuasion. (In that package, you can dump Wis to 7 in point-buy and still have stellar saves and even an above-average Perception score.) Five build-points for a 14 becomes halfling 16 for an aggregate +6 to charisma checks with the Circlet, for a total of +10 to any charisma skill with a single rank in it. That includes UMD, and it works straight out of the 2009 CRB, no splats necessary.
You have to work at making a rogue rotten, and shortshrifting dex, int, and charisma to chase high-strength melee focus is the biggest screw up. (It results in a lame pseudo-fighter who trashes everything rogue is otherwise geared toward. Of course one's utility is going to be "abysmal" if one eschews utility from the moment of concept.)
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Not having either Fort or Will sucks but is something you can fix, not having either of them is a huge hole to climb out of. I'd be saying the same thing about the Swashbuckler's crappy defenses if the topic was about that class.
The Rogue doesn't get the jewels because they're rigged with an Alarm spell that he has no way of even detecting because it's not considered a trap. You'd want an Investigator for that.
The Barbarian can take as much charisma as she damn well pleases because Superstition makes her will save incredible, and since the Barb has plenty of arguments for building for Intimidate she might as well grab Diplomacy as well. I've certainly built Barbarians that could serve as a party face.
Okay, so you've proven that the Paladin has excellent saves. I think you're kind of missing the point of playing a Rogue if you think all of them should be Paladins, though.
Ninja is best built as a brute. [...] For pure consistent damage such a build is superior to the unchained rogue.
I second this.
The ki pool extra attack and ninja tricks are better than rogue talents. The unchained rogue is mainly about:1. "Dex to hit and damages", which is a non-issue if you go Str-based 2. the [minor/major magic + bookish rogue] chain.
As an alternative, you could play an archaeologist bard and call yourself a rogue or a ninja.
When you add in multi-classing, Unchained Rogue can turn game-breaking.
We've been talking about CORE rogues, not unchained ones.
So, core vanilla rogue remains a better choice than a lot of things out there.
Wow. Is that what it actually looked like to you when I wrote (verbatim quote post in its entirety)...
Yes. You where claiming a "core vanilla rogue" was "better choice than a lot of things out" based ONLY on evasion. That would have to make it the best thing since sliced bread for that to be true. :P
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Failed Fortitude saves can either sideline you with a nasty condition, or just kill you outright.
Failed Will saves can also sideline you with a nasty condtion, or they could force you to kill your party.
Failed Reflex saves just do damage.
Damage is the least effective method of ending combat. This is due to the fact that a creature at 1% hp and a creature at 99% hp have all the same capabilities and are virtually indistinct from one another.
Thus, having a poor Will save and a poor Fort save is potentially far more dangerous to a player than having a poor Reflex save.
This is also the reason why Blaster Mages are looked down upon in favor of battlefield controlling God Wizards, who are capable of shaping the battle to their favor in a way that simply dealing damage cannot. In other words, this is just another aspect of the game's far reaching and ever present Caster-Martial disparity.
You may have been talking about core rogues, but this thread is about ninja vs unchained rogue.
Yep, just clearing up what we were talking about [Slim Jim claiming core rogues were better than ninja's because of evasion] as it seemed when you said it "Sounds an awful lot like some people in here have no idea how to play a rogue..." you were talking about plain old rogues then you started talking about unchained abilities. It gets complicated when someone just says 'rogue' when people are talking about core and unchained and not noting which it is.
PS: I'm with you on unchained rogues as they bring a lot more to the table.
When you add in multi-classing, Unchained Rogue can turn game-breaking. Mixing 4 levels of Unchained Rogue with the Hunter class and Boon Companion gets ridiculous at higher levels...+6 flanking bonus any time you and your AC threaten the same target (Outflank, Improved Outflank, Pack Flanking), any time either of you crits it provokes an extra AoO from the other...add in Paired Opportunist and things get really crazy.
I'm actually doing that right now and we are kicking butt. Change out Improved Outflank for Broken Wing Gambit and add Precise Strike. My animal companion has the most consistent hits in the game and does a major amount of damage.
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Even a core rogue can still be valuable if played right...they are overall the weakest of the 3 though (Core Rogue, Ninja, and Unchained Rogue). Evasion can be great, but is far from the most important thing a rogue gets.
Now that Pathfinder has been around so long, they have added a ton of new classes which step all over Rogues toes...Slayer, Investigator, Vigilante, etc. All of which have their places, each is stronger than the rogue in some areas, and weaker in others. Then of course there are the archetypes which turn other classes into quasi-rogues (Archaeologist, etc) and the Rogue-ish prestige classes (Shadow Dancer, etc)
I personally just have a particular fondness for Rogues and Rogue-like characters...my first RPG character was an old 1st Edition AD&D Thief :) and I have played rogue-ish characters in virtually every system I have played in ever since.
In pathfinder my rogues always end up with a handy haversack stuffed to the gills with tools and tricks for almost every conceivable scenario. Usually around 2 pages of various gear on top of the gear the character actually wears.
Rogues don't have any reason to boost charisma, and doing so can be a detriment because it eats into point buy that can be used for the wisdom and constitution you so desperately need to not die. Why would I ever pick a Rogue for my party face when I could take a Bard, or a Mesmerist, or an Inquisitor, or... You get the idea.
Unchained Rogues absolutely have a reason to pump Cha...Rogue's Edge skill unlocks. Some of the skill unlocks URogues get are insanely good, and if you play PFS like I do, they are the only class that gets them. Unlocked Intimidate is amazing...leave your victim panicked for 1 round, frightened for 1d4 rounds after that, then shaken thereafter (even if they have Stalwart). You can end a combat with a single intimidate roll if you pair it with something like Dazzling Display.
Skill Unlocks aren't really a reason to pump CHA over any other score, though. If anything, I'd rather pump WIS. Not only do I get a better Will save, but I get a better Perception check (which is huge) and I can take the Heal skill unlock to act as an out-of-combat healer for the party (legitimately the most cost effective healing in the game, that unlock).
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Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and UMD are all CHA based, and all have nice unlock perks.
Getting caught in a lie with bluff normally means you are done, not with the skill unlocks, eventually you can even fool lie detection magic.
Being able to diplomacy someone as a round action instead of the normal 1 minute means you could actually use it in combat to talk your way out of fights.
Intimidate I already touched on above...you can effectively remove people from a combat just by scaring them. With the right feats this can even become a free rider action on your normal attacks.
Multi-classed into Bard? Unlocked Perform can boost your other Cha skills, increase your spell DC or even caster levels.
UMD...never worry about failing to active an item again.
Maybe not a reason to focus on Cha...but certainly some nice options for a face rogue. Personally, I like my rogues to have well rounded stats (Most of mine have a whole lot of 14s and no dump stats)