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Leg 'o Lamb, it could go exactly as you describe in a play by post game. The answer would be 'Yes, I own it, and it's sitting on the desk right next to my computer as I'm typing, so I have it with me.' Now what? The GM can't see whether it's there or not. The player is following the rule by having the book with them when they play.
Yes, I am aware of the absurdity.
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Those are two separate things and you don't need to treat them as one.BigNorseWolf casts burning disarm
Me not remembering if the spell causes damage if you save or if you fail. So, I ask.
BigNorseWolf looks up the spell on third party website and tells me.
Me asks BigNorseWolf if s/he owns "Cheliax: Land of Devils" and has it with him/her.
No? "Would you like to pick a different second level spell, or would you like to play a lovely Kyra pregen?"
Can you please explain your reasoning? I want to understand your position before crafting a response. Thank you.
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*checks on internet*
"Okay, thats out of cheliax, empire of devils. Digs through bag
Looks on tablet. not there
Takes out a spare shirt
Takes out 5 battlemats
takes out an isometric mat
Hands you half a subway sandwhich and one cookie.
eats cookie
Takes out duct tape
Finds andoran, edge of liberty. Sees scorchmarks. Is probably geting close
Takes out mini case
Pokes hand on exacto blade
Duct tapes exacty blade wound.
rechecks tablet. Finds it under pz3.14158 unzipped
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Can you please explain your reasoning? I want to understand your position before crafting a response. Thank you.
If I am dming and i want to know how a feat or feat combo works, I have the option to
1) fuggedabout it, i'll ask later
2) Look it up
If i look it up online, or one of the player uses one of those handy dandy phones with internet access things, I can read that, and make a ruling. I don't need to see it in the source if i don't want to.
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*checks on internet*
"Okay, thats out of cheliax, empire of devils. Digs through bag
Looks on tablet. not there
Takes out a spare shirt
Takes out 5 battlemats
takes out an isometric mat
Hands you half a subway sandwhich and one cookie.
eats cookie
Takes out duct tape
Finds andoran, edge of liberty. Sees scorchmarks. Is probably geting close
Takes out mini case
Pokes hand on exacto blade
Duct tapes exacty blade wound.
rechecks tablet. Finds it under pz3.14158 unzipped
I ask you nicely and you respond with hyperbole.
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Can you please explain your reasoning? I want to understand your position before crafting a response. Thank you.If I am dming and i want to know how a feat or feat combo works, I have the option to
1) fuggedabout it, i'll ask later
2) Look it upIf i look it up online, or one of the player uses one of those handy dandy phones with internet access things, I can read that, and make a ruling. I don't need to see it in the source if i don't want to.
Actually, yes you do.
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If you can't present your source when I need it and we're in a limited time situation (such as a convention slot), that's fine. You can take the delay action until you present the source. A good Pathfinder agent is well-prepared.
I am willing to forgive a certain amount on circumstance... but I eventually start to have concerns about a player who seems eager to avoid playing by the rules of organized play.
Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage
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So I have a mix of hard copies and PDFs. For the PDFs I print the page the archetype/class/feat etc. w/watermark, highlight the archetype/class/feat etc. on the page and put it in the binder with my chronicles and character sheet. For the resources I have hard copies I make a copy with the pertinent information and place in the binder (this last part doesn't meet the rules requirement for having the resource).
For my 5 characters I pull character options from 14 different books. I have PDFs for all but of the 7.
To be legal when I sit down at a table to play any of these characters I will need to bring with me the following (because you're never sure during a day what characters are going to be needed and if you re playing multiple tables there is little time to run back to the car/hotle room to retrieve the other resources): Advanced Races Guide, Adventure's Armory, Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea Intrigue, Ranged Tactics Toolbox, Pathfinder Unchained, Weapon Masters Handbook, plus the Core Rule Book. In addition to the character binders, dice, minis, scratch paper, pens & pencils etc.
That can make for a large bag to carry around and keep out of the way while playing.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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Regionally appropriate greeting, everyone.
There is no "double standard" when it comes to Online Play - and there is, and should not be, any special rules for Online Play when it comes to proving ownership for material and providing GM the necessary references for materials used.
The following methods are allowed to prove ownership of materials for Online Play sessions:
* Use Webcam to display books to GM during the gaming session.
This is no different than showing the GM the physical books at a "meat-space" table.
* Send screenshot of ONLY the watermarked pdf cover of the rulebook.
This is no different than showing the GM the physical book(s) [or watermarked PDF(s) on a tablet] at a physical table, and book covers are covered by the community use policy, and have your watermark on them showing ownership.
* Send snapshot of your Paizo downloads page showing the material being used. (Your name is at the top when logged in and you have to be logged in to show the page.)
This is no different than a receipt created in a physical retail location and even more specific and clear as to ownership, and it is already allowed in the relevant FAQ.
* Send scanned copies of physical, itemized receipts of purchases.
Also allowed by the relavent FAQ mentioned above .
* A contemporized photo with the physical book(s) in question (meaning made for that specific identifiable session - with session specific info in the picture to prove when it's taken).
The above methods should all be exhausted before this option is used, and a GM can chose not to accept this if they so choose not to allow it as proof in the same way as physically presenting the book(s).
All the above was approved by Mike Brock when he was the OPC and has not changed under Tonya; all of it is consistant with the Paizo Community Use guidelines; and the relavent FAQ.
The intention of Paizo's guidelines are two fold at the table: to show ownership of material used in the creation of the PC, and to provide the GM access to the rules at the table should they not own, or not have on them, all the material used at the table by the players.
The above guidelines allow GMs proof of ownership, satisfying the first need.
Being Online intrinsically allows GMs access to the rules in it's full breadth and width, so the second criteria is also met. (The Additional Resources page is also available to Online GMs in the same way.)
There is no conflict with existing rules, FAQs, or guidelines - nor any "special cases" for Online Play.
If any one has any questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me at the email address linked below, or on Discord (also linked below).
- Jesse
Jesse R. Davis [IronHelixx]
Regional Venture Coordinator, Online
IronHelixx@OrgPlayOnline.com
Discord Chat: PFSChat.com/SFSChat.com/AdventureCardGameChat.com
Our Mission: To Champion, Serve, Support, and Build the Online Community.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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Regionally appropriate greeting, everyone.
There is no "double standard" when it comes to Online Play - and there is, and should not be, any special rules for Online Play when it comes to proving ownership for material and providing GM the necessary references for materials used.
(Snip)
The above methods should all be exhausted before this option is used, and a GM can chose not to accept this if they so choose not to allow it as proof in the same way as physically presenting the book(s).
All the above was...
Done! Great post. Now witness the power of a fully armed and operational Regional Venture Captain!
A VC can also work with players to provide duplicate receipts. As a backup, look for a players name to be written indelibly on the inside cover. A FLGS can also certify purchases if you ask.
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Done! Great post. Now witness the power of a fully armed and operational Regional Venture Captain!A VC can also work with players to provide duplicate receipts. As a backup, look for a players name to be written indelibly on the inside cover. A FLGS can also certify purchases if you ask.
These are great ways for Organized Play to help players, however, the following are concerns:
-- Game stores close with appalling regularity in this area. Some of the stores that local players have bought from haven't existed for five years.
-- Game stores do 'pop-up' tables at regional conventions and have either a cash-only or email-only method of doing business (though admittedly becoming rarer -- would an email receipt count?)
I like the idea of 'some form of customization' on a given book being a good indication of ownership -- it is highly unlikely that Fred Stein is going to own a book with the name Olivia Wells written on it, barring a very good an interesting tale behind the transaction
For years, everyone knew my CORE hardcover because I'd bought it damaged (unknowingly at the time, thought it was a design feature) from a local store and the marking was... distinctive, for example.
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This is a hard issue to adjudicate. Obviously, Paizo wants to encourage sales which is a primary function of the OP program. That has to be tempered by the fact that players, GMs, organizers, and VO are NOT enforcement police nor do we want that to be a focus. Unfortunately, the more we audit, the more people we find disasterously “illegal” characters utilizing rules for books they do not own. I recently heard of a local group that oticed the problem increasing and decided to do a character audit for every player who showed up to their GameDay. Out of 18 players across three players, every single one were found to be using rules from books they didn’t own. A few were not even aware this is a rule, and some just didn’t care. Assuming the claims, it shows that many players are just not reading the Guide which is problematic iteself, but also some are knowingly ignoring the ownership rules. How do we address this within the stated rules? Punish the players, you risk them not coming back. Take no action and you allow it to continue, even encouraging to to become more widespread. Of all the rules we have, which are largely enforced with an emphasis on “trust your players,” this one seems to be violated the most. The only solutions seem to be ignore it as a requirement or ramp up quality audits to reduce/eliminate noncompliant players.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I've run into players complaining about "Pay to Play", and I think it's important to draw the difference between Pay to Play (fair: it costs money to make books) and Pay to Win (bad, but not really the case because the CRB already allows you to "win").
Put in another way: PFS is produced pretty much at cost, including providing free scenarios to a lot of people for loaning to GMs. But a given session is about four hours of entertainment. Compare that with a ticket to a movie theater (lasts half as long for the same price as a PDF) or going to the pub (2-3 drinks for the price of a PDF), and this game is quite cost-efficient.
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The way I avoid lugging too much stuff around is to have a folder for each character. In addition to chronicles I keep printouts of PDFs for any relevant shenanigans. For those things I have only hard copy of I make photocopies of the relevant pages.
For those things which multiple characters have (like alchemical items and ioun stones) I maintain a separate general use folder.
Venture-Captain, Isles—Online
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I usually just warn players that they are EXPECTED to have the materials to hand, NO-ONE either in meatspace or online has the time for rigorous audits. TBH unless your character is wildly off the curve, then i probably wont ever ask to see the books or pdf's- but i retain my right to do so.
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For those things I have only hard copy of I make photocopies of the relevant pages
You will find some table variation on the acceptance of this. Having a photocopy of a printed book does not demonstrate ownership and some GMs will not allow it. The RAW in the Guide v8.0 supports it although many will say it is too extreme an expectation for someone using a library of books for their character. YMMV
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I understand Paizo s rules about owning the source. They’re in this to make a buck, no problem there. I wish all this nonsense about phsical copies available or xerox copies of relevant pages yad yada would stop. I can find anything on my iPhone in a tenth of the time it takes someone to look through a ream of paper to find a photo copy of a source they’re using. Just say if you want to use it, buy it and let’s move on.
There has to be a better way for conventions than what’s been suggested. Bottom line is I’m not going to buy a pdf of a book I already own and I’m not going to fly across the country with 50lbs of paper to play at a con.
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Would it not be easier to just show the content of what you have in "your downloads" of Paizo?
Most would say that is reasonable, but technically its not part of the rules in the Guide so a GM would be within their right to refuse that option.
Generally speaking this topic has two parts. (1) Having the material available from an official source to show the GM so they can review the rules and if necessary interpret how it works at their table. (2) Having proof of ownership. The former really is the more important factor IMO, but since Paizo has asked us to ensure the latter, problems arise. They are kind of stuck in a bad place. If they say ownership is not required, then the entire point of organized play (to sell product) can be significantly hindered. OTOH, by attempting to enforce an ownership rule it makes convention travel, online play, and even local play much more difficult for many players who otherwise are following the rules and not attempting to cheat. If there was an easy solution, it would have been implemented already.
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In addition, there are individuals from both sides of the discussion that apparently don't see the need to have a cohesive method that treats the situation fairly for those who have in good faith purchased hard copy years ago.
For any of a number of reasons the purchasers have no 'proof' that they made that purchase save.. having the good faith purchased hard product.
There are others who have been striving to fix this over the years, and the rule has become more understanding and nuanced for most cases, but the remaining parts are a bit painful.
Particularly if they are on a fixed gaming budget and made the decision to purchase the hard copy, but can't afford the money for a .pdf or a device that can read the .pdf.
...or are really unable to read .pdf all that well and have to have hard copy.
eg. I fall more into that latter category now, but for about two years until the first Humble Bundle I was in the former. It made it difficult to travel to conventions, to say the least.
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Would it not be easier to just show the content of what you have in "your downloads" of Paizo ?
I would accept this without reservation for content from the PRD, which is easily accessible online and is generally presented in its original context.
For anything else... I might be slightly more leery. Even Archives of Nethys presents most game elements out of context. For example, what can be used to qualify for this feat? Even AoN doesn't have all the answers.
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An accessible copy means one of the following: a physical copy of the book, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of the relevant pages, or either a photocopy of the relevant pages or electronic access to the Pathfinder Reference Document at paizo.com/prd along with proof of purchase. Proof of purchase may include a receipt from a game store
or a screenshot of your My Downloads page at paizo.com.This then allows you to use the PRD to provide the rules source if the GM has questions about it. For material outside of the PRD you will need to instead provide one of the other options.
Well that sounds reasonable. What is not in the PRD? Non hardcover stuff? That is cool as most of my player companions are pdf.
My other question is how militant are the GMs at Paizocon? I’m there to enjoy some gaming with like minded folk not to get hassled. Reading the forums there’s a lot of posters with the “well at my table....” attitude. I don’t know how common this is at Paizocon. I own all of my sources but to be asked to prove it all the time would be a downer.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Number of times I have been asked to prove ownership at a convention: 0
Number of PFS conventions I have attended: approximately 30
★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★
Generally, this stuff only comes up at conventions when something looks wonky or out of place. I have been to only one PaizoCon. I found my fellow GMs and players knowledgable, fun and friendly. You should know your character thouroughly and have documentation. Scanned chronicle sheets are now acceptable.
Keep in mind that all GMs are different, and they are within rights to spot check or audit. They just generally don’t take the time to do so in convention slots.
Hmm
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My other question is how militant are the GMs at Paizocon?
Not militant at all. The general atmosphere of PaizoCon is extremely friendly. I've run at almost every PaizoCon and this just doesn't come up often. I *do* ask to see rules every once in a while because I want to rule things right when I'm not familiar with an option. It's never been a problem.
I do highly suggest PDF print-outs - much much easier than dragging up something on a phone, which then flips around or locks when you pass it over to the GM.
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Please have rules references for the GM; and please use paizo material and the relevant erratas + FAQ for that rules reference. Archives of Nethys, Herolab, Perram's Spellbook and d20pfsrd all have mistakes. It brings the game's momentum to a halt when the GM tells you that that spell or feat doesn't work that way even though Herolab or your spell print-off says it does (regardless of who is actually right).
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Please have rules references for the GM; and please use paizo material and the relevant erratas + FAQ for that rules reference. Archives of Nethys, Herolab, Perram's Spellbook and d20pfsrd all have mistakes. It brings the game's momentum to a halt when the GM tells you that that spell or feat doesn't work that way even though Herolab or your spell print-off says it does (regardless of who is actually right).
Which do you want to emphasize more? To keep the game going or getting something off of an official source? There's a certain amount of either or you're going to have to settle for there.
Having everything available on an official source at your fingertips in one click simply is not feasible for more than a few characters, especially if you have a mix of digitial and dead tree assets. Its not like you know in advance what rules the dm is going to look up, and its not like you know an FAQ affects your rule unless you know about the FAQ.
Its not like printed materials don't have errors or lack updates either.
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A recommended rule of thumb is: If you are using an ability that seems really good, check for FAQs and errata. If you are using rarely seen (or really good) ability or mechanic, have those ones a click away (the GM is more likely to want to look those up).
Again, not really feisible if you have dead tree assets. you're probably going to need to look up where it comes from and then find the book in your geek bag.
It is absolutely not a false dilema. its a real dilema. Checking a rule takes time, checking a rule in an official source is slower than google.
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And most importantly, work respectfully with your GM to reach understanding.
The questions they may have might not have been those that have ever come up with your play experience, but happens a lot in theirs. Or they may have a different idea on how the item(s) in question work.
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Things i have had happen to me more often than a source check on a geek convention vacation
Stranded in the new jersey port authority
Break up a beating
Collapse in a heap because my leg gave out
Explained why there needed to be an anouncement not to pet the bomb sniffing dogs
Ironically, licked by a bomb sniffing dog while sleeping on the ground and proceeded to pet it.
saved a rat
Almost run over a possum
Stranded in harriman new york for 6 hours
Said hello to a very large bat flapping around my window
saved an arachnaphobe from a spider
made some friends
saved a spider from an arachnaphobe
arrived 4 hours early
Had no hotel room. followed by having too many hotel rooms.
Snuck on the wrong train
stayed on the train well past my stop
Accidentally made 5 hour energy coffee
had lots. and lots of fun.
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My other question is how militant are the GMs
Generally speaking, not at all, nor restricted to PaizoCon. Remember, PC is THE event for hard-core Pathfinders. It is relatively expensive to attend unless you live in the area and the attendees are all members of the Paizo extended family. Attending a regional or national convention OTOH is where you are more likely to see a wider range in GM attitudes and local styles that dominate the event. In nearly a decade, I've rarely seen an ownership issue come up, though it has happened. It usually occurs in areas where it was discovered to be widespread throughout the local community and the organizers are trying to get things back to rules compliance by emphasizing strict implementation. Unfortunate, but it happens.
I try to be permissive for players, but I should have just blocked his use of it since he failed to disclose it at the outset. And since I didn't do that, the rest of the time it felt like I was just looking for ways to screw him out of his ability because it was a terrible action to take in the anti-evil capital of the world. It was not the first time the ability was used at a table and the trouble it caused at previous events had to demonstrate this was a problematic ability and he should find out how the GM would adjudicate it before the game started, and it goes without saying you would want to know how the other players would react to it so it should have been discussed during character introductions. I can only assume that the player intended it to be a "gotcha" moment based on how it unfolded.
My advice, don't do that
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Number of times I have been asked to prove ownership at a convention: 0
-Number of times I have asked a player to show me their source: 18
-Number of times I have asked a player to show me their source because I didn't recognize the ability: 6-Number of times I have asked a player to show me their source because I was pretty sure they were using it wrong: 12
-Number of times they were using the ability wrong: 11
-Number of times it was a 3rd party feat that they found on d20pfsrd: 2
-Number of times they couldn't show me a legal source: 10
-Number of times I disallowed them from using it unless they came up with a legal source: 10
I'm batting pretty good on "I don't think you're doing that right." I don't go around asking people to prove ownership on a whim, but if they can't show me a legal source for an ability they are using when I ask about it, it's out for that game.