Karzoug vs. Lamashtu?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Lamashtu and her servants have showed up several times during the adventure path, in part as a red herring. But Lamashtu's minions showing up so often alongside Karzoug's minions means that they must have some opinion of each other, if only from how often they interact.
Sometimes, it seems like Karzoug is distracts, enslaves, or even stops worshipers of Lamashtu from worshiping her, which suggests that Lamashtu would be kinda ticked at Karzoug, possibly to the point of her minions giving the PCs encouragement. At other times, though, their minions get along just fine, suggesting that the two at least tolerate each other. Which is it?

[Allyx]

I don't think the God Lamashtu minds that some of her followers were a part of Karzoug's kingdom, likewise Karzoug doesn't demand worship from his vassels, only their taxes.

Karzoug may have been dodging the grave for the last 10,000 years, but he's still mortal, Lamashtu however is a Godess who will endure long after the PC's kick Karzoug's ass.

[Yossarian]

I asked James Jacobs a similar question a while back:

James Jacobs on the Karzoug - Lamashtu connection

[Graelsis]

Well, Allyx, that's not completely true...

Actually, karzoug is inmortal. He's no longer affected by the pass of time and his wizard level can be a high problem for the entire world, also, the module suggest you that the PC'S can only kill him due to his weak condition after coming back from the grave, and also due to his tights with an ítem.

GreatWyrmGold, i suggest you to go to the end of the book, there you will find a lot of information about what can happen if nobody stops karzoug, for me it's hard enough to make some deity be very worried about the topic.

Maybe you can do something like "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" if you want to make your PC'S feel a weird sensation of "weak but necesary" alliances.

[Allyx]

The entire adventure path revolves around Karzoug's "reawakening". He is not immortal, he was put into a temporal stasis until his underlings could reawaken him after Earthfall.

For 10,000 years there were no surviving underlings with the knowledge, ability or compulsion to do so, only when Mokmurian went to Xin Shalast did Karzoug begin stirring, this was marked by the "recent unpleasantness" in Sandpoint. The Runewells sprung back to life as a result of Mokmurian's rituals or perhaps the awakened Runelord's presence.

Kharzoug was Azlanti in ethnic origin and probably very long lived compared to humans, and perhaps even longer than Elves, but still mortal.

[John Mechalas]

Spires of Xin-Shalast wrote:

Immortal Secrets from ancient Thassilon and realms beyond have allowed Karzoug to sustain his life indefinitely. Unless slain by violent means, he is effectively immortal.

RotR Anniversary Edition wrote:

Immortal (Ex) Secrets from ancient Thassilon and the realm of Leng have allowed Karzoug to sustain his life indefinitely. Unless slain by violent means, he is immortal. He gains the +3 bonus to his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores for having lived beyond venerable age, yet retains the youth of a young man and does not gain the penalties to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This immortality also grants Karzoug complete immunity to disease and to all forms of madness (including confusion effects and feeblemind).

[Graelsis]

John Mechalas wrote:

Spires of Xin-Shalast wrote:

Immortal Secrets from ancient Thassilon and realms beyond have allowed Karzoug to sustain his life indefinitely. Unless slain by violent means, he is effectively immortal.

RotR Anniversary Edition wrote:

Immortal (Ex) Secrets from ancient Thassilon and the realm of Leng have allowed Karzoug to sustain his life indefinitely. Unless slain by violent means, he is immortal. He gains the +3 bonus to his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores for having lived beyond venerable age, yet retains the youth of a young man and does not gain the penalties to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This immortality also grants Karzoug complete immunity to disease and to all forms of madness (including confusion effects and feeblemind).

Thanks, i was just about to post this in order to show Allyx he's mistaken in this issue.

Or at least mistaken in terms of what the campaign book says, Allyx, remember you can allways make the world as you please if you are a DM ruling the Adventure Path.

[Latrecis]

You're getting trapped in the limitations of language. Karzoug is immortal in the sense he doesn't age and won't die of natural causes. However he is not immortal in the sense of a god like Lamashtu. Four 18th level mortals can't kick in Lamashtu's front door and hack her to death with a dwarven waraxe. (Sorry. Recent personal experience.)

Allyx's point was (if I can be so bold) that Karzoug is one powerful wizard on one world (Golarion.) Lamashtu is worshiped on many worlds and has many things on her plate in addition to one greedy Runelord.

To the OP's question: Lamashtu and Karzoug aren't really rivals though Lamashtu might be interested in a return of the Runelords - in Thassilon's heyday she was worshipped - at least among Alaznist worshippers and may have had more influence. Many of the current deities didn't exist then and many of that time have faded away (Peacock Spirit, Lissala.) Karzoug's minions don't really do anything to thwart Lamashtu - the presence of some of her servants in the story is almost coincidental. The pc's run into Lamashtu forces because they are exploring ancient ruins where there are remnants of her worship from the Thassilon era.

[John Mechalas]

Latrecis wrote:

You're getting trapped in the limitations of language. Karzoug is immortal in the sense he doesn't age and won't die of natural causes. However he is not immortal in the sense of a god like Lamashtu.

Given that the gods can be killed, too (e.g., Acavna), I fail to see a meaningful difference here. Immortal means you live forever unless something destroys you.

Quote:

Four 18th level mortals can't kick in Lamashtu's front door and hack her to death with a dwarven waraxe. (Sorry. Recent personal experience.)

You're talking about power, not immortality. Karzoug is immortal, but he's not a deity.

[Latrecis]

John Mechalas wrote:

Latrecis wrote:

You're getting trapped in the limitations of language. Karzoug is immortal in the sense he doesn't age and won't die of natural causes. However he is not immortal in the sense of a god like Lamashtu.

Given that the gods can be killed, too (e.g., Acavna), I fail to see a meaningful difference here. Immortal means you live forever unless something destroys you.

Quote:

Four 18th level mortals can't kick in Lamashtu's front door and hack her to death with a dwarven waraxe. (Sorry. Recent personal experience.)

You're talking about power, not immortality. Karzoug is immortal, but he's not a deity.

But that was exactly the point. Karzoug and Lamashtu live on completely different planes of power. Karzoug may be one mean, nasty, basa$$ ant, but he's still just an ant.

[Allyx]

Graelsis wrote:

John Mechalas wrote:

Spires of Xin-Shalast wrote:

Immortal Secrets from ancient Thassilon and realms beyond have allowed Karzoug to sustain his life indefinitely. Unless slain by violent means, he is effectively immortal.

RotR Anniversary Edition wrote:

Immortal (Ex) Secrets from ancient Thassilon and the realm of Leng have allowed Karzoug to sustain his life indefinitely. Unless slain by violent means, he is immortal. He gains the +3 bonus to his Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores for having lived beyond venerable age, yet retains the youth of a young man and does not gain the penalties to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This immortality also grants Karzoug complete immunity to disease and to all forms of madness (including confusion effects and feeblemind).

Thanks, i was just about to post this in order to show Allyx he's mistaken in this issue.

Or at least mistaken in terms of what the campaign book says, Allyx, remember you can allways make the world as you please if you are a DM ruling the Adventure Path.

I am a DM running this campaign, though this is my first time through it and we've only just got past Fort Rannick.

Kharzoug's Immortality ability had escaped my attention before I posted, but even the quoted descriptions imply his Immortality isn't natural, Azlanti people were mortals, Kharzoug's Immortality was gained though some ancient secret means.

What I meant to say was that Kharzoug and Lamashtu weren't rivals for worshippers, Kharzoug would allow his people to worship deities freely as long as his taxes were paid. And for as for Lamashtu, Kharzoug isn't even on the same playing field as her, as thus has nothing to fear from Kharzoug one way or the other.

[The Shifty Mongoose]

It never made sense to me that Karzoug would have Lamashtans in his employ - partially because Alaznist courted demon & qlippoth-worshippers, but also because Lamashtans cannot, generally, be bought.

The only thing I'm really changing about this is that I'm switching CE Lamashtu-worshippers who are his minions to LE, and their religion of choice to Mammon. Others who aren't clerics (like Ceoptera) will follow the Divine Consumption, which I'll describe as basically Greed treated as a sort of prosperity doctrine.

Actually, oracles and such who follow the Divine Consumption could pretend to be clerics of it, giving his sham faith an air of legitimacy.

As for Lamashtu, Karzoug may never have had any plans against her, just against her faithful. Especially the ones who sided with Alaznist.