So me and a few friends have just started playing for the first time and they all seem to have grasped everything quite quickly whereas I know the basics of what I'm doing. I tried to read the class guides but couldn't rap my head around them, any tips?
I'm playing a 50 Year Old Gnome Rogue with:
- 13 (+1) STR
- 15 (+2) DEX
- 16 (+3) CON
- 11 (+0) INT
- 13 (+1) WIS
- 14 (+2) CHA
I've got the following feat and the skills:
- Two Weapon Fighting
- Acrobatics (+6)
- Bluff (+6)
- Diplomacy (+6)
- Disable Device (+6)
- Disguse (+6)
- Intimidate (+6)
- Perception (+7)
- Sleight of Hand (+6)
- Stealth (+10)
Any particular type of rogue you have in mind? If you're looking for a simple generic rogue, I would make DEX my highest stat, followed by charisma but that's not a must.
It looks like you're wanting to fight with 2 weapons. Personally, I would save that for higher level and focus on a feat to make myself better at finding or removing traps or Dodge so I;m harder to hit. Rogues don;t wear heavy armor, so getting out of the way is pretty important. :)
As for skills, they look fine, but why Intimidate? Use Magic Device can be your best friend. You can pick up a wand or scroll from any spell casting class and act as a back-up. Or get a wand of something (like invisibility or Cat's Grace) and make your job even easier. I would assume the fighter would be your "intimidator", but Diplomacy is a good idea. Intimidate could be picked up later if you really want it. I would also find a way to get Knowledge Local. Just so you can know who's who in the town and maybe know where to buy or sell questionable things.
Didn't really have anything in mind specifically, just wanted to be your stereotypical sneaky man, I was planning on moving on to being an Assassin when I can. But cheers for the other stuff, we're still early in the campaign but will grab those other things as I level.
We're playing Unchained Rogue.
your main concerns are AC and GETTING SNEAK ATTACK DMG. There are several ways to make sure you get your sneak attack, but the best and most surefire way is to have a talk with your teammates and work out some flanking tactics. There are teamwork feats that reward everyone for flanking, so maybe that's a way to encourage such behavior. The second most reliable way is stealth, catching your enemies offguard. I'd consider choosing stealth as your first rogue's edge skill. Other tactics include Feinting and Intimidating your enemies into losing their Dex bonuses to AC, but I've not played such a build (such tactics require high CHA, and my rogue is lacking in social graces). Tanglefoot bags are another way to go. Invest in UMD so that you can always help out in combat.
Outside of combat you'll really shine. I think the Sense Motive Rogue's Edge unlocks are probably my favorite. You can basically read people's minds if you talk to them long enough. I view my rogue as more of an informant or spy, and those abilities are extra lumpy gravy.
A couple of things for you:
1) I absolutely agree with the advice to use teamwork tactics and set up flanking with a buddy. This is one of the most powerful tactics for a rogue and virtually guarantees everyone of your attacks are sneak attacks if you can get into position. It is straight up murder!
2) Two Weapon Fighting (TWF) at low levels is the same thing as "two weapon miss". Seriously, it is aweful. Instead you come out further ahead with Improved Initiative or Weapon Finesse. Both of which are very solid options.
3) For your melee weapon get a rapier. It is a finesse weapon so as you stack Dex it scales well, and it counted as a "light" weapon so if you do go TWF later you are not getting screwed with penalties. Because of which dual wielding rapiers is also a valid technique. Plus their better threat window allows for "happens on crit" rogue abilities and weapon enchantments to trigger more often.
4) Initiative & Surprise round. For starters just because you (theoretically) specialize in the use of a melee weapon (or two) suggested above with the rapier, does not mean that you should not also carry a bow. In fact you ABSOLUTELY should! Not only are there tons of specialty arrows such as grappling hook arrows which are a ton of fun to use, but it pairs well with the recommendation on Improved Initiative & maxing out your Dex suggestions earlier.
Here is how it works: You are hidden. You spot the bad guys and fire your bow at one of them. This is a surprise round / surprise attack. As such they are flat footed (because their failed their perception check) and take sneak attack damage.
The second round, you beat their initiative check (because of your max out dex and Improved Initiative feat). This is important because until they act in the 1st round they are still flat footed. In other words SNEAK ATTACK!
The down side of this tactic is you can only sneak attack once per round while using a ranged weapon. Unless of course that has been changed or your able to find a feat or magic item which over rights that rule. If you find such an option let me know!
5) Find items, spells, feats, etc that allow you to move quickly around the battle field without provoking attacks of opportunity. If you cant get into flanking positions your opportunity to buddy team the bad guys is screwed.
6) Bluff / Feint / Improved Feint - Look closely at these skills & feats. Ask your DM about the use of Bluff to Feint in combat. See if they will allow the skill to used as a Dex based skill for this purpose. Many DM's feel it should be DEX based anyway. If so it allows you to learn to Feint as a move action (Imp Feint) and then as a standard action to SNEAK ATTACK. You will almost always get more out of a sneak attack with one attack than you would attempting to TWF for normal damage, and are more likely to actually hit them which again means more damage.
7) Weapon enchants: elemental enchantments such as flaming weapon are great with TWF builds and stack well with sneak attack.
8) Rapiers can be used with Power Attack or Piranha Strike (which stacks better with high dex). Both feats are added to crit strikes.
9) The trap spotter rogue talent is great if you are in a campaign where the DM likes to surprise you with traps frequently.
There are tons of other ways to get a lot out of your rogue builds, and there are lots of guides out there on how to do so.
In the spirit of fairness allow me to tell you this before others do so: there are a lot of other classes & archetype combinations out there which can mimic the abilities of a rogue, and in some cases (depending on the style of game play and combat you are hoping to create) can at times even do it better. I personally love rogues, but will "give the devil his due" that there are lots of alternatives. On the flip side you mentioned previously that you are using the Unchained rules, and there were certainly a lot of love that was given to the rogue in that work.
If you want some house rules which give love to rogue let me know, I have a few of those which your DM might be interested in (or would completely hate...)
Good luck to you, and happying rogue'ing!
Find items, spells, feats, etc that allow you to move quickly around the battle field without provoking attacks of opportunity. If you cant get into flanking positions your opportunity to buddy team the bad guys is screwed.
Spring Attack->Spring-Heeled Style->Canny Tumble->Circling Mongoose
You're effectively flanking with yourself.
Good catch on the rapier / light weapon point. I remember there had been some confusion with earlier printings on them and Paizon / PF finally clarified them better. Thanks for catching that.
On thing you might want to consider to give your Rogue a little extra bite might be a possible "dip" into Fighter for 2 levels. This a classic combo for rogues as it gives you two feats, a + 2 bab and a nice boost to your Fort saves.
Another option if you don't want to loose as many skill points with a Fighter dip might be to consider Ranger. They still have D10 hp, the + 3 Fort, a + 2 BAB, 6 skill points (vs a rogues 8 and many of the same class skills), and you get TWF.
I'd also point out that Rangers are classified as Divine casters. I won't try to quote Pathfinder on this one but I think this allows them to use things like wand of cure light wounds without a UMD check. Please don't quote me on that point however.
That said however, one thing not to forget when looking at whether or not to multi-class (even as a "dip") is that rogues get a lot out of their sneak attacks and rogue talents. One could even argue that these are defining characteristics of the class these days. Consider carefully before trading them away for other features which you could have gotten as a rogue talent anyway.
I'm playing a 50 Year Old Gnome Rogue...
I've got the following feat and the skills: - Two Weapon Fighting
Do a halfling instead of gnome, and you'll immediately be +1 to everything (except HP): attack, damage, AC, and saves.
- 13 (+1) STR
- 15 (+2) DEX
- 16 (+3) CON
- 11 (+0) INT
- 13 (+1) WIS
- 14 (+2) CHA
In a gnome, that looks like 25pt buy. Let's try 25pts (16, 14, 14, 14, 12, 8 array) in a halfling:
str- 10
dex+ 18
con: 14
int: 8
wis: 14
cha+ 14
Versus gnome build above:
HP -1/level
Fort save +0
Reflex save +3
Will save +2
attack (dex) +2
damage (at rogue3) +2
Acrobatics, Disable, other dex skills +2
AC +2
And then there are the feats like Risky Striker (halfling only). The game has so much support for halflings in these roles that it's hard not to grossly excel being one.
racial trait: Fleet of Foot
character traits: River Rat,
1 barbarian [urban or savage technologist archetype], Extra Rage
2 rogue1 [SA+1d6][unchained: weapon finesse]
3 swashbucker1 [Mouser archetype], Accomplished Sneak Attacker [SA+2d6]
4 rogue2 [evasion][combat trick: Two Weapon Fighting], Dex>19
5 rogue3 [SA+3d6][finesse training: dagger], feat(general):???
6 rogue4 [Uncanny Dodge][rogue talent:???]
7 fighter1 [Drill Sergeant archetype], any two feats with BAB6 requirements
8 ...(any martial class)
How adamant are you on playing a Rogue? Because even UnRogue is one of the worst classes to play for a first character. Especially if your GM is inexperienced. Rogue has a lot of weaknesses, and while it is totally possible to create a fairly strong Rogue, it's far from easy or intuitive. As you can see from both your own confusion and Slim Jim's complex multiclass suggestion.
Rogue's main problem is that the class is not as advertised. Many players think that they have to play a Rogue to play a rogue. The thing is that the Pathfinder Rogue is pretty much the opposite of a rogue!
A rogue is generally a bit of a loner, stealthy, good at many things, and a master of precice, deadly attacks. A Pathfinder Rogue is extremly dependent on teamwork *, is not particular good at skills (and especially not at the stuff you want to use skills for) **, way worse at stealth than almost any arcane caster, and can't hit the broad side of a barn without an ally on the other side of it saying "strike this way" ***.
*) Flanking is the best way to get Sneak Attack, and Unchained Rogue's main Debilitating Injury is only really a good thing if others profit from it.
**) Sure, a Rogue has a lot of skill ranks, but I presume that a big number in "total skill points" in the character sheet is not the ultimate goal - the ultimate goal is to be good at many things. Yes, he has more skill points to put in climb, stealth etc. than a Sorcerer, but that guy can simply use Spider Climb/Fly and Invisibility. Also, he doesn't have the attributes for a good charisma without crippling his combat capability, so he'll never be as good a suave, charismatic guy as for instance a bard.
***) Despite the main damage source being "precision damage", the rogue is extremly geared towards many inaccurate attacks. Even more so for Unchained Rogue (which is a straight upgrade but doesn't really fix the problems).
Derklord is right about playing a rogue. The original rogue was so bad that two of the NPC classes were actually stronger. The unchained rogue made major improvements to the class so now it is simply the weakest of the PC classes. The problem is that to really get a lot out of the unchained rogue requires a great deal of system mastery. That is why I recommend that only experienced player take it.
You may want to look at other classes instead of playing a rogue. An archeologist bard makes an excellent rogue. Another option would be slayer for a more combat focused rogue. A lot of the other classes have archetypes that allow you to play a rogue like character.
Derklord is right about playing a rogue. The original rogue was so bad that two of the NPC classes were actually stronger. The unchained rogue made major improvements to the class so now it is simply the weakest of the PC classes. The problem is that to really get a lot out of the unchained rogue requires a great deal of system mastery. That is why I recommend that only experienced player take it.
You may want to look at other classes instead of playing a rogue. An archeologist bard makes an excellent rogue. Another option would be slayer for a more combat focused rogue. A lot of the other classes have archetypes that allow you to play a rogue like character.
I've looked in to some of the other classes and am considering a Monk, maybe as less of a Rogue but still with a bit of stealth?
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The Investigator (the class, not the rogue archetype) is very good at doing roguish things. The Empiricist archetype is particularly strong.
Rogues are not a d10 martial with high-fortitude saving throws. Higher-level melee is, therefore, a very dangerous place for them to be (and "higher" begins at about 5th level). The key to playing a rogue successfully is to get the hell out of Dodge when big monsters flounce up with devastating full-attacks on their mind. That, and setting the acceptable level of being flat-footed to "never".
If you are a total newbie, and want to have a stealthy melee character, ranger and slayer are two excellent introductory classes.
The chassis of both classes is great: Full BAB, Good Fortitude and Reflex Saving Throws, d10 Hit Dice, 6+ Skill Points per level, all Simple and Martial Weapons, Light and Medium Armor Proficiency, and Shields.
They both have great lists of class skills (Knowledge, Perception, Stealth, Survival, etc.). They're also great at teaching the little sub-systems that Pathfinder has as they go up in level.
Rangers teach you about monster types through Favored Enemy, non-combat conflict resolution through Wild Empathy, different ways (and feats) of fighting through Combat Style, buffing your allies or running an Animal Companion through Hunter's Bond, Spellcasting, etc.
Slayers teach you how to manage resources like daily uses of Studied Target, and combat positioning through Sneak Attack. The Slayer Talents are flexible and also let you select a Combat Style like a ranger, which is a great introduction into selecting bonus feats, because it gives you a few categories that each have a few options, which is a lot easier to deal with than the Fighter's option of choosing Combat Feats from a list of 1000 feats in 20 different books!
Maximizing sneak attack damage is one way of creating a rogue focused on offense, but then there is also the rogue that can have solid offense without sneak attack, and that way sneak attack isn't required to be effective, but a nice bonus when you can apply it.
For this character consider the following:
Feats: level 1 dodge, level 2 unchained rogue talent (combat trick) mobility, level 3 exotic weapon proficiency (elven curved blade or elven branched spear)
This would probably require a one or two level dip into urban barbarian, urban bloodrager, or urban skald. The barbarian and bloodrager give a larger bonus to dexterity when raging, which is the main benefit of the dip, the skald gets spells, skill boosts, and better save boosts. The spells, vanish and detect magic could help a lot.
Feats: level 5 power attack or extra rage, level 7 what you didn't get at level 5 or spring attack, level 9 the last of power attack, extra rage or spring attack
Having the ability to rage also allows you character to benefit from the furious weapon enchantment. Not quite as much as a full barbarian or bloodrager, but with 2 levels and the extra rage feat you should have enough rage for the majority of the combats per day (about 15 rounds per day, I'd imagine between 3-4 fights easy).
Maximizing sneak attack damage is one way of creating a rogue focused on offense, but then there is also the rogue that can have solid offense without sneak attack, and that way sneak attack isn't required to be effective, but a nice bonus when you can apply it.
For this character consider the following:
Feats: level 1 dodge, level 2 unchained rogue talent (combat trick) mobility, level 3 exotic weapon proficiency (elven curved blade or elven branched spear)
This would probably require a one or two level dip into urban barbarian, urban bloodrager, or urban skald. The barbarian and bloodrager give a larger bonus to dexterity when raging, which is the main benefit of the dip, the skald gets spells, skill boosts, and better save boosts. The spells, vanish and detect magic could help a lot.
Feats: level 5 power attack or extra rage, level 7 what you didn't get at level 5 or spring attack, level 9 the last of power attack, extra rage or spring attack
Having the ability to rage also allows you character to benefit from the furious weapon enchantment. Not quite as much as a full barbarian or bloodrager, but with 2 levels and the extra rage feat you should have enough rage for the majority of the combats per day (about 15 rounds per day, I'd imagine between 3-4 fights easy).
If you're going to multi-class into a raging class, might as well take it at 1st level. You'll get more hit points and you can take the Berserker of the Society trait for 3 more rounds of rage per day. You can even take Power Attack at 1st level if you want. Or begin with a shield or medium armor if you want some additional heartiness at 1st level. There are lots of examples in literature where a barbarian type transitions into a rogue type, like Conan. Or if you go the Urban barbarian/bloodrager/skald route, you just started out as a thug, and then became a burglar or troubleshooter or rake or what have you.
You're right SmiloDan, going the strength route could work for this character. I'd save the exotic weapon proficiency feat, they could use a small sized great axe and do d10 damage. I The berserker of the Society trait by taking the class at 1st level is great too.
I would second the Slayer as a better starter rogue character. Pick up the trapfinding talent at lvl 2 and you are setup pretty naturally to replace a rogue.
That being said, I feel like the unchained rogue isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. You are still squishy and don't want the attention of any enemies, let alone the big bad ones. But many of the big drawbacks to playing a core rogue got addressed.
Do some research on how to get opponents flat-footed / denied dex and plan accordingly. Otherwise, work with teammates to get flanking - just try to make sure your meat shield (whatever big dumb fighter friend you have) ends up on the side of the monster closer to all the monster's buddies and you end up on the side closest to your team.
Accept that you won't be as effective in combat as most of your team - but you can help set them up for success with stuff like debilitating injury. Also know, that you will be very helpful in out-of-combat situations. Yes, a wizard will be able to solve many of these problems as well - but in my experience most people build / plan around combat and wizard spells frequently are focused around dealing with enemies rather than social/terrain obstacles. Playing a rogue allows for / promotes creative play. On that note - also do a thorough reading of ultimate equipment to find mundane tools to do creative things, it is always fun to whip out an ear trumpet for example!
My experience with new players is that they try to do a lot of things that are handled in Pathfinder by skills and skill checks, so a rogue, ranger, slayer, or bard are good fits. They always seem to be hiding in trees and jumping down on everything they can see, so they use lots of Survival (to find the tracks by the best tree), Climb (to climb the that best tree), Stealth (to hide in the tree), Perception (to notice the monster under the tree), and Acrobatics (to jump out of the tree).
Bard: Archeologist is admitted a strong contender for the roll of "Rogue" as is the Ninja or Slayer (both are more combat oriented vs the rogue having more adventuring skills like trap finding).
Advantage of the Archaeologist is Bards are spellcasters, and thus they gain a lot of versatility in the Pathfinder setting.
Here is a question I'd have for you: You are new to Pathfinder. Is your DM new to the system? Are the other players in your group new? Other than Unchained, are any other products or optional rule sets available to you for use? What level are you starting at?
Has anything been banned or restricted from your campaign by your DM?
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You can't be a complete noob if you spell Rogue correctly, most every complete noob spells it like a color of makeup, Rouge...