Disclaimer: I don't have access to Temple of the Twelve, so my answer is just based on what I could glean from your post. YMMV. :)
1. The Alien Archive has rules for making solarian NPC statblocks - for solarians with the solar weapon feature it says "that weapon deals standard melee damage for the NPC's CR from Table 2: Combatant Attack Statistics". 1D8 base would seem to indicate it is a CR 6 creature.
2. The Alien Archive doesn't mention the Pulse Dart ability anywhere. This could be cut content in the form of a special creature ability/Solarian Revelation. It could also be something unique the designer added to give him a ranged attack but not equip him with a ranged weapon (storyline reasons? WBL concerns?), or just to make him feel different. Damage-wise it falls right into line with the Ranged Energy Damage array for CR 6 combatants.
That picture doesn't look like a solar weapon. It looks like an energy spear. What solar weapon can be attached to a weapon? I always thought they said they just manifest it, right?
Honestly, if Solarians get a ranged revelation it feels like making it Graviton would be better than Photon. Would give Graviton Mode some more use as it's rather weaker than Photon right now.
Yeah, it may be a precursor to one released later (Since it's on an NPC statblock) or something that was scrapped during testing.
... I was just f!$&ing talk about this s#*~ in the Alien Archive thread as a hypothetical and it turns it out it was already a thing.
Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
... I was just f#%~ing talk about this s&#+ in the Alien Archive thread as a hypothetical and it turns it out it was already a thing.
Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
What was the hypothetical?
What was the hypothetical?... I was just f#%~ing talk about this s&#+ in the Alien Archive thread as a hypothetical and it turns it out it was already a thing.
Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
A PC Solarion seeing an NPC Solarion making ranged attacks with their stuff and wanting to do that later only to be told “lol nope, NPCs use different rules than you”
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There is actually a consistent in-lore reason for this. He has different powers because...
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A PC Solarion seeing an NPC Solarion making ranged attacks with their stuff and wanting to do that later only to be told “lol nope, NPCs use different rules than you”What was the hypothetical?... I was just f#%~ing talk about this s&#+ in the Alien Archive thread as a hypothetical and it turns it out it was already a thing.
Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
4th edition does this. So does fifth edition.
Starfinder is not Pathfinder, in far more ways than folks think I believe.
Mind you, as a bit of a counterpoint to that: Any NPC 'template' that was used to emulate a class in 4e generally emulated the encounter abilities of said class (So fighters marked, rogues sneak attacked etc).
HOWEVER, most NPC enemies simply didn't say what class they were. Instead you got something like 'Bandit Lord' where the class went unmentioned.
Well, there's supposed to be a visible but ancient link to the current tradition, I think is the point.
There's no reason for the GM to be the least bit confused about this in context, though, since it's perfectly clear in the module text what's going on. Which would hopefully mean that this:
A PC Solarion seeing an NPC Solarion . . . “lol nope, NPCs use different rules than you”
... should not happen. There's no reason for it to happen.
OTOH if there should be a PC Solarian who's really intent on unravelling the mystery of this power, maybe an enterprising GM could find a way to let them try.
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@CeeJay, yeah that all makes sense.
I've never been one to worry that PCs don't have access to everything .NPCs do.
Ancient law lost to time, new mutations of power, cultural or racial incompatibility.
Theres any number of reasons why PCs might come across things they can't do.
I ran a homebrew Pathfinder campaign once where only those of noble heritage could tame and ride gryphons and hypogriphs. I used it to show a class divide in my setting and it added to the players immersion in the world by adding a touch of envy to the game.
This isn't exactly the same, but touches on the same themes.
If it helps, you could always think of this like the Jedi and Sith. In the movies they had lost access to powers from the past that they lamented not being able to do any more.
" Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Plageus the wise?"......
It would be of a piece with much of the other complaining-about-Solarians, I guess. :)
We kind of already have a "ranged attack" revelation in Sunbolt, but based on the underwhelming scaling for that I think the theoretical Pulse Dart revelation would probably be an unpopular pick as well.
What if we make it a third Solar Manifestation option instead? Mechanically the main draw of the Solar Weapon is that it saves you the money you'd spend on a conventional melee weapon, that logic can be applied to ranged solarians as well. It would also be a decent option for heavy armor melee solarians that want to use a reach/unwieldy/energy/special material weapon.
I'll leave the damage scaling for the guys that actually have access to the formulae for ranged weapons, but it shouldn't be too hard to put together?
Sunbolt is the Level 14 power that does 9d6 points of damage from nearly a thousand foot range, yes? The same power that be replenished in a 10-minute rest so you can use it in multiple encounters in a single day? Wouldn't the ability to fire that off at will unbalance the game just a tad?
Sunbolt is the Level 14 power that does 9d6 points of damage from nearly a thousand foot range, yes? The same power that be replenished in a 10-minute rest so you can use it in multiple encounters in a single day? Wouldn't the ability to fire that off at will unbalance the game just a tad?
Not...really? I mean, a level 14 grenade does 10d6 with AOE and grenades are not exactly snapping the game in half. The soldier is doing 3 shots of 4d8+14 at that level with an arty laser.
It also doesn't scale worth a damn, so when the soldier is making 9d8+20 on every single one of his attacks you are still doing 9d6.
Hi Walsh! Nice to see you replying to my posts again! :)
Sunbolt isn't unpopular due to its damage scaling.
That may not make it unpopular to you, but it's certainly a factor for me.
Sunbolt's damage is 9D6, which averages out to 31.5 damage. A level 13 laser rifle hits for 5d6+14 for an average of - wait for it - 31.5 damage. Neat! Sunbolt hits for rifle-equivalent damage, and the +2 bonus if you're attuned actually puts it slightly ahead!
But wait... What happens at level 17? Sunbolt still hits for 31.5 damage, but the level 17 laser rifle hits for (8d6+17) 45 damage. Goodness me, that's 50% less damage.
What about at level 20 you ask? Trusty Sunbolt still hits for 31.5 damage, but a level 20 laser rifle hits for (11d6+20) 58.5 damage, or just under double the amount of a Sunbolt.
So based on the scaling I outlined above, it's useless for ranged solarians. At the earliest level it comes online it's roughly equal to the most common gun, then it gets thoroughly trounced by leveling. If the gunner solarian were to grab an artillery laser instead of the rifle Sunbolt never even enters the running.
What about the melee solarians, you ask? Well, if you're a clever melee Solarian you'll of course have a thrown weapon as backup, so let's see how Sunbolt stacks up to a level 12 starknife. The Sintered Starknife hits for 4D8 + 14 + 7 (strength)
for an average of 39 damage, and has a much better chance to hit your target since it uses Strength to hit, not dexterity. I'm not gonna bother doing the math on level 17 and 20 but trust me, Sunbolt isn't suddenly going to catch up.
The lack of scaling alone makes Sunbeam a lackluster option.
It is unpopular because it can only be fired once.
That's the other side of the coin, and part of why I mentioned scaling earlier. If Sunbolt gets the scaling it does because it has a limiter of 1/rest, and a theoretical Pulse Dart revelation doesn't have that limiter, logically Pulse Dart would have to be less powerful and most likely deal less damage.
the guy using the revelation is cr 6 so by math this becomes usable by either 2 or 4th level revelation so how you guys put this to 14 range by the way?
I think there's some confusino here - we're not saying that Pulse Dart is or should be a level 14 revelation, but that the closest existing analogue to Pulse Dart is a level 14 revelation called Sunbolt. We're using Sunbolt as a basis for what a theoretical Pulse Dart revelation could look like.
Since Sunbolt has:
A: Poor Scaling.
B: high level requirement.
C: A fairly harsh limit on how frequently it can be used.
It seems unlikely that we'll see a Pulse Dart Revelation that has no limit on how often it can be used, good scaling, or a low level requirement.
Based on that, we might be better off if you generalize the Pulse Dart concept and make it a Stellar Manifestation instead. If it's standardized like the Solar Weapon people who pick that option can throw hadoukens, fire laser beams, unleash angry bees or whatever else their fantasy can come up with and use it as ranged attacks. :)
Not...really? I mean, a level 14 grenade does 10d6 with AOE and grenades are not exactly snapping the game in half. The soldier is doing 3 shots of 4d8+14 at that level with an arty laser.Sunbolt is the Level 14 power that does 9d6 points of damage from nearly a thousand foot range, yes? The same power that be replenished in a 10-minute rest so you can use it in multiple encounters in a single day? Wouldn't the ability to fire that off at will unbalance the game just a tad?
Except none of those can be used at close to a thousand foot range or above (grenades have a max. twenty foot range, there's no gun in the game that does better than a hundred and fifty feet), so the comparison would seem fallacious. There are more factors than just the raw damage.
Basically Sunbolt is a true sniping power that's extremely hard to answer except with a few very high-level spells (and because it's a spell-like ability it's fairly easy to replenish and not subject to the same restrictions as spell slots, which would make all the one-to-one comparisons with 5th-level spells that I suspect we're about to hear also problematic). The game is specifically designed for powers like that to do things that guns and grenades cannot do.
It seems a lot of the Solarian revelations are designed this way, and balanced so that they deliver latitude to do things like automatic damage or damage at appalling ranges without simply rendering all the other classes in the party redundant.
Except none of those can be used at close to a thousand foot range or above (grenades have a max. twenty foot range, there's no gun in the game that does better than a hundred and fifty feet), so the comparison would seem fallacious. There are more factors than just the raw damage.
Basically Sunbolt is a true sniping power that's extremely hard to answer except with a few very high-level spells. The game is specifically designed for powers like that to do things that guns and grenades cannot do.
You are forgetting range increments. Sniper rifles vastly outdo Sunbolt with range. An Elite Shiran Eye sniper rifle can snipe at that range at only a -2 penalty (And can snipe from a LOT further at that same -2 penalty), doing more damage (Average 36 to the 31.5 of the sunbolt) every single turn. Or with even higher damage and at 0 penalty if you buy a +2 level sniper rifle in a city. You won't end a battle with a single 10 minute recharge 31 damage shot after which you are hoofing it.
Sunbolt is just really not an impressive attack power. A dex solarian is genuinely better off just 'Buying a sniper rifle' than spending a purchase on it.
I take not suffering from range increment penalties to be one of the benefits of the power.
At any rate some people are (or were) apparently of the opinion that sniper rifles aren't all that useful? ;) (Not meaning to needle you, that post was literally one of the first results that came up when I just searched for sniper rifles and Starfinder.) I don't particularly agree with that either, it's just that long-range spells and spell-like abilities have benefits that normal weapons do not have.
Except none of those can be used at close to a thousand foot range or above (grenades have a max. twenty foot range, there's no gun in the game that does better than a hundred and fifty feet), so the comparison would seem fallacious. There are more factors than just the raw damage.
I see what you are trying to do, but how often are you going to be firing a sunbolt in an open field to benefit from the range? Also, you are still making a ranged attack so what if you miss? I wasted a power on a revelation that doesn't scale and has a high chance of missing if I am a melee Solarian. Why not make it a throw fireball? Why not have it scale if I can only use it once?
I take not suffering from range increment penalties to be one of the benefits of the power.
At any rate some people are (or were) apparently of the opinion that sniper rifles aren't all that useful? ;)
Oh no, I'm not saying that sniper rifles are good. I'm saying that it's WORSE than sniper rifles, something I already find to be too weak for it's own good.
And while that -2 isn't always fun, it also runs into the fact that said sniper rifle can shoot from 1500ft at that -2 penalty or 2250ft at -4. Not an advantage the spell-range sunbolt has. So the sunbolt has a small advantage from 750ft to 960ft, before and after which the sniper rifle wins out.
Except none of those can be used at close to a thousand foot range or above (grenades have a max. twenty foot range, there's no gun in the game that does better than a hundred and fifty feet), so the comparison would seem fallacious. There are more factors than just the raw damage.I see what you are trying to do, but how often are you going to be firing a sunbolt in an open field to benefit from the range?
Presumably having the option available allows you to attempt attacks that you otherwise would not be able to make and thus exploit opportunities that otherwise would be irrelevant. I'm not "trying" to do anything, that's just pretty clearly a thing the power is built to enable.
Whether you get opportunities to exploit it depends a lot, of course, on whether your GM chooses to give you those opportunities. It's possible to build scenarios in a way that makes all sorts of things in the game useless or redundant, that's not limited to Solarians. The designs are there to suggest certain possibilities for adventure opportunities you can give to players.
The issue is that even in the best case scenario with the sunbolt...what have you done that buying a cheap level-6 sniper rifle wouldn't have let you do? It's a 10 min recharge between attacks and going by the Alien Archive, everything over CR 3 (So 11 levels lower than you) has enough HP to tank a single sunbolt and keep going. The sniper rifle would at least let you continue engaging.
And while that -2 isn't always fun, it also runs into the fact that said sniper rifle can shoot from 1500ft at that -2 penalty or 2250ft at -4. Not an advantage the spell-range sunbolt has.
Although its range does scale up with level to a maximum of sixteen hundred feet. With no penalty. And an added +2 to the attack if you're attuned. Right? You can't see any possible way that might be advantageous?
everything over CR 3 (So 11 levels lower than you) has enough HP to tank a single sunbolt and keep going
It doesn't have to be one-shot-one-kill to be useful, surely? There's such a thing as softening up an opponent, providing a distraction, drawing fire... there's all sorts of purposes you could use an attack like that for. It provides an added edge, the Solarian is not there to be the Ultimate Cheese that renders all the other characters unnecessary.
Although its range does scale up with level to a maximum of sixteen hundred feet. With no penalty. And an added +2 to the attack if you're attuned. Right? You can't see any possible way that might be advantageous?
Scaling up...isn't in the Sunbolt's favour. As it's damage doesn't scale so by the time you have 1600ft, your ability to actually majorly impact someone is very low. You will be a level 20 character who can't actually kill a CR 3 foe reliably with the sniper ability.
I take not suffering from range increment penalties to be one of the benefits of the power.
At any rate some people are (or were) apparently of the opinion that sniper rifles aren't all that useful? ;) (Not meaning to needle you, that post was literally one of the first results that came up when I just searched for sniper rifles and Starfinder.) I don't particularly agree with that either, it's just that long-range spells and spell-like abilities have benefits that normal weapons do not have.
Level 14 you get a power you can use basically once a fight for average 31.5 damage at just shy of 1000 feet. Or you can use the level 13 Sniper Rifle 6 times per clip at same attack bonus (assuming you have proficiency since you for some reason want to attack at that distance) at 210 feet less, or at -2 at about one and a half times the distance, for average 22 damage. Or, if you spare the money, you can buy the level +2 16th level Rifle to hit 40 feet *further* at the same bonus, more than twice as far at -2, 6 times per clip at average 33 damage. Even if you only use one clip per fight, that's still 6 times the shots, for decently comparable damage, at similar ranges. Which is a lot more likely to actually meaningfully contribute than one shot you have to spend 10 minutes and a Resolve point to reload. And ultimately that range isn't actually likely to matter much anyways, because most fights don't take place at 750-2000 foot ranges, they're more likely to take place at the kind of ranges where you can probably close the gap with at most a Move Action and Stellar Rush, and thus bring your far more effective Melee abilities to bear.
^ See edit above. I have to bow out until later.
(That was to Ikiry0. To the above, I feel like we've already covered that ground, more or less.)
It doesn't have to be one-shot-one-kill to be useful, surely? There's such a thing as softening up an opponent, providing a distraction, drawing fire... there's all sorts of purposes you could use an attack like that for. It provides an added edge, the Solarian is not there to be the Ultimate Cheese that renders all the other characters unnecessary.
Against someone you are nearly 5x the level of? Yes, it rather should be. At that point, the person you are dealing with is not a meaningful threat, he can barely ever hit you and you almost never miss...but you still can't manage to remove this guy from the fight in less than 10 minutes, if he does nothing else.
Almost any situation I can think of for sunbolt, you could do better with by buying a very cheap level-6 sniper rifle which does the same thing but has a rate of fire that doesn't make an actual artillery cannon look speedy.
That's what I get for working on a post for a while and not reloading in the mean time I guess.
Sorry mate.
Anyway, in all this number-crunching one might also want to factor in weapon crystals. Which being employed at 14th level or above would make the power's damage 12d6 up to 15d6 and allow a selection of different damage types.
Now I really do have to get going.
Anyway, in all this number-crunching one might also want to factor in weapon crystals. Which being employed at 14th level or above would make the power's damage 12d6 up to 15d6 and allow a selection of different damage types.
Solarian Weapon Crystals don't add damage to it, they only allow damage type shifting.
The Sunbolt write-up doesn't actually specify one way or another, but I can't see why crystals wouldn't add damage if you can use them with the power. Changing the type of damage would just be a further added benefit.
That's how I'd run them anyway. *shrug*
Hi Ceejay!
You're quite right, I admit I glossed over the range in my earlier breakdown. In my defense, I did so mostly because I think the 1/10 minute rest issue really hampers opportunities to use the range to your best ability. If you're a ranged Solarian and you want to shoot at foes ~1200 feet away, you're infinitely better off grabbing a sniper rifle to consistently snipe at ranges like these. As a GM I'm not crazy about the "sniper gameplay" in general since it tends to exclude other players unless you're playing a highly atypical group so I wouldn't recommend it, but hey - it's still an option.
For the melee solarian firing his Sunbolt at someone ~1200 feet away, he just lit a literal beacon alerting everyone on the opposing team exactly where he is; and if they now engage him with ranged weapons of their own, he has no way to fire back at them since he just used his single charge. He can either hide or flee so he can rest for 10 minutes and shoot again, or enjoy running the 960-1200 feet (sidebar: How did you reach 1600 feet? Near as I can tell 400 + 40*solarian level (40*20=800) would cap at 1200 right?) to swing his melee weapon at the enemy. That's potentially a lot of rounds of running while under enemy fire. In that sense the range is more of a liability than an asset.
I try really hard to find the use for everything in Starfinder and there's plenty of times I've changed my mind after looking closer at an option I first thought was rubbish (like sundering!) but Sunbolt still strikes me as half-baked. It's very odd that, near as I can tell, it is the only revelation that deals damage but doesn't have any scaling at all, especially in the super late game where dice scaling goes off the charts.
I feel like the revelation is caught between two categories - "powerful single-cast nuke" and "viable ranged weapon alternative". It's somewhere in the middle and I can't help but feel it fails at both. :(
excuse me magica but i think you understand some think wrong it takes three turns to attune not simple 1d3 every turn( which makes easier to fully atune since you can get loaded dice to solve the problem)
Waiting 3 turns is for players. Monsters and NPCs get their own version in the Alien Archive, and is on StarfinderSRD here.
It's not 1d3 per round though; it's 1d3 to determine how long until you're fully attuned.
The Sunbolt write-up doesn't actually specify one way or another, but I can't see why crystals wouldn't add damage if you can use them with the power. Changing the type of damage would just be a further added benefit.
That's how I'd run them anyway. *shrug*
While that would make sense, and would definitely make it better, the unfortunate reality is that the ability does spell out exactly how it interacts with the crystals. And that is
If you have a solarian crystal (see Solarian Weapon Crystals on page 170) that changes the type of damage dealt by a solar weapon, you can use it to change the type of damage you deal with your sunbolt.
that it explicitly uses the crystal to change damage type.