So there's a thread running where we have been discussing a lack of a caster focused class as both the mystic and technomancer are really hybid classes. I feel like a balanced caster class is achievable and would like to go work with everyone to see what we can come up with. I think the first class we should try to build is the equivalent of a space wizard. Animated paper had the idea of grounding it in the starting setting by calling it the esoteric and I like that idea.
So what do you guys think? To me a pure caster class would include the following:
-1/2 BAB
-Class feature (spell accuracy?) which makes the caster target as full BAB with spells. Any armor check penalty applies to attack rolls up to cancelling this bonus.
-Light armor proficiency
-Proficent with analog small arms and operative basic weapons. (I'm flexible on this, but I think it should be a subset of basic and small arm. This would mean that to get better weapons either multiclassing, or taking at full basic or small arm proficiency, then either long arms or advanced maple weapon proficiency b and the taking versatile specialization for a total of 3 feats.)
-6th level spells
-Higher level spells like wish and miracle only through class features (similar to the technomancer and mystic)
-Slightly earlier spell access. Gain the next level of spells 1 level before the hybrid classes.
-More castings per day, maybe a max of 7 per level provided by the class.
-Slightly more spells known, 1 extra compared to the hybrid classes.
-Something like eternal spell at higher levels. Damage should be slightly having on level small arms.
-At level 1 a day ability or similar that functions as a 's trip with low damage. This would be replaced by Eternal spell When they get that feature.
-5 stamina and hitpoints at level 1, but only 4 per level after that.
-Only a good will save
-Thematic chosen class features like spell hacks
-Uses the same spell list as the technomancer, extra spells could be chosen through class features. (This would limit the dificulty of balancing every posible spell as piazo has already done the work for us)
So thoughts?
-6th level spells
-Higher level spells like wish and miracle only through class features (similar to the technomancer and mystic)
-Slightly earlier spell access. Gain the next level of spells 1 level before the hybrid classes.
-More castings per day, maybe a max of 7 per level provided by the class.
-Slightly more spells known, 1 extra compared to the hybrid classes.
-Uses the same spell list as the technomancer, extra spells could be chosen through class features. (This would...
Really disagree on these points. If you're going to make a caster class. Make a caster class. These changes are just going to be something that works exactly like Technomancers. Why do any work on creating and testing a new class? Just play a Technomancer if you like how they work.
Sorcerer progression should be fine. I'd also be fine with them having normal Half-BAB even for spells. That's a nerf for the versatility of spellcasting (you have more options, but you're not as good at any of them). They should get their own spell list, and in it, some of the spells that Technomancers/Mystics get at level X should be at some level greater than X (like Interplanetary Teleport as an 8th or 9th level spell instead of 6th) so they get it around the same time (level wise) as a technomancer would. Any spells they get should be balanced against save DC's and the like on a per character level basis and some of the OP spells from PF should either be severely nerfed or just not allowed.
Top two lines are perfect. Strike the right balance in the system.
Armor I am torn on. Part of me wants to just lift the Solarian armor system and slap it in here with a few modifications. Or maybe instead of a restricted weapon grouping, restricted armor? (Only armor designed to be worn under plain clothing kinda thing).
I'd stick to small arms. Anyone can use a pistol with limited training. Using melee weapons takes training and you're more likely to hurt yourself.
For spell access not sure if you mean 1 level earlier for each spell level (so 3, 6, 9, 12, 15) or every two levels instead of every three (3, 5, 7, 9, 11). I would vote for the second. Maybe with a delay on two levels of spells where there are significant other abilities gained (like 3,5, 8, 10, 13).
Just do 4 stamina points. Having a bump at level one is odd and not that much of a difference.
If we're shooting for a single magic class (instead of space warlock and space cleric), I would make the spell list work like the inverse (or maybe the same as) the Solarian revelations. E.g. You know 5 spells. If 3/5 are on the technomancer list only, you get a bonus cast of one per day. Or the inverse of if you know 5 spells, and they are all only on the mystic list, you lose a casting per day (depending on if we're shooting for unbalanced or balanced). I think giving the class some level of access to both spell lists is key though.
I'm kinda liking the idea of the this being a magic focussed solarion. If we go for unabalanced (which makes sense with magic), they could be a rogue offshoot of the solarians who believe that a choice should be made.
So there's a thread running where we have been discussing a lack of a caster focused class as both the mystic and technomancer are really hybid classes. I feel like a balanced caster class is achievable and would like to go work with everyone to see what we can come up with.
I have been reading the Mystic and Technomancer pages a lot the past week and rereading the spells currently. I have a lot of theories about these classes and why the spells are the way they are but I have a question for you.
What makes the Mystic and Technomancer hybrid classes in your opinion? Or what are the Mystic and Technomancer missing to homebrew and new caster class? Just curious.
The reason I don't want to use a different spell progression is that it introduces a lot of fiddly bits that are a pain to deal with. It means you have to create a new spell list, spells now are inherently better or worse depending on who's casing them, items based on spell become a pain because you get the whole oh I can have this in an ample because it's so'n'so's version of the spell. Also it means creating spells that are going to fill the 7-9 level. Some could be moved, but not all of those spells would be coming from 55th and 65th level spells that you move. This then leads into game breaking capable spells. I feel of you limit such spells to class features it's easier to control them and still make them feel meaningful.
As far as only having a true 1/2 BAB and no other bonus, this would lead to a situation where the technomancwr is better at landing spells than a class who's whole focus is spells. It would be very unsatisfying.
As far as why I think there should be a class like this and not just play a technomancer, well having the same spell list doesn't mean you play the same way. I would expect this class to play in a different way. It would be casting almost every round. A refinished can't do that. That being said it would not have the versatility that the technomcer class has.
To me the technomancer is more of a ranged magus than a wizard. I want to make something that feels more like a wizard, but I want to make the implementation/integration as easy as possible.
All that said I do appreciate your thoughts. Others may agree with you so we need to hear what you think even if I do agree. :)
To me they are hybid classes because they are 3/4 BAB, and can do respectable damage on par with may classes by only investing 2 feats. Also they have skill focused features that a cater focused character traditionally doesn't have.
Technomancers are absolutely NOT a hybrid class. Their 3/4 BAB and some of their class features have led people to think that they are, but they are absolutely not.
A technomancer that spends feats on wep focus, sniper proficiency, versatile specialization, spends a magic hack on empower weapon and constantly spends credits on new weapon upgrades is almost as effective as a soldier, but only for 3-4 rounds per day (until they run out of high level spell slots. And yes, I've done to math to back this up). Yeah, you can do this, but you could do almost the same amount of *single target* damage by just throwing an explosive blast (and you'll usually do far more due to having multiple targets). This is the same thing as a wizard in pathfinder pumping strength, grabbing power attack, and casting enough buff spells to make up for the lower BAB. We don't consider the wizard a hybrid class because it can do this, and I wouldn't consider the technomancer a hybrid class for the same reason.
It is perfectly possible to be a normal, pathfinder style, full caster as a technomancer (or mystic). You can cast battlefield control abilities (Grease, Fog Cloud, Wall of Force), group and single target buffs (Haste, Resistant Aegis, Greater Invisibility), AoE debuffs (Microbot Assault, Slow, and in the case of the Mystic 4th level Fear), and all the wonderful utility spells you've come to know and love. The spell list could use a bit more fleshing out, but it hits all the essentials.
Making a class that is better at spellcasting than the technomancer or mystic risks utterly invalidating both classes, as both are currently strongly balanced around their access to spells and not their ability to deal damage with weapons.
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See, I'd want a 9th level spell list for this.
-Sorcerer-style spell progression and spontaneous casting.
-Don't just lift Mystic/technomancer spells willy-nilly. Many of those are balanced to be gained at certain character levels, and you don't want to mess that up. See chained summoner for what bad things can happen there. Class should probably have it's own spell list, with carefully chosen borrowed spells that aren't disruptive at lower levels.
-Spells should focus on not taking over other's niches. For example, it's okay if a "skill replacement" spell is worse than having max ranks, but better than no ranks.
-Flavor wise, some sort of mix between oracle, sorcerer, and psychic. Understands magic at a deep level and spells are it's primary solution to problems.
Edit: Since the class likely won't buy weapons, have something like Solarian weapon crystals that act as a similar cash sink desirable to the class.
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To me they are hybid classes because they are 3/4 BAB, and can do respectable damage on par with may classes by only investing 2 feats. Also they have skill focused features that a cater focused character traditionally doesn't have.
Did you ever wonder why they made them this way? When reading the book there are a lot of differences and when I read something that is vastly different I tend to sit back and wonder, "Why did they do that?"
I kind of view these spell casters as an evolution of the wizard and sorcerer. I think technology has kind of killed the typically wizard who spends years in magic school trying to learn that light spell. "Here's a flashlight!"
Here is an example of jobs that no longer exist because of technology. 10 extinct jobs. I see the old Wizard as a lamp lighter essentially.
I think having too low of a BAB could limit you in combat. Lasers seem pretty easy to use. Like if you sat down and built a Mystic you could build 7 vastly different characters. With the Technomancer you could build slightly less. That's at least 10 different casters out of only 2 classes.
Like you could build a psionic, druid, mage knight or even The Green Lantern! To me it seems just a little strange to build another class that is limited.
I think if you're going to have a full caster class, you're going to need a new spell list. I don't think it necessarily needs to be "the same" as the PF Sor/Wizard list. There are certainly spells in there that are problematic (at best). But it isn't the 7-9th level ones that are the problem, at least in my experience. It's all the 2-6th level ones that essentially let you do some class's trick better than they can (*cough*polymorph*cough*) or get around an encounter entirely with a single casting (*cough*polymorph*cough*).
If the new class just uses technomancer spells, I don't think anyone would consider playing them beyond possibly minor testing.
Now, I do think that, for example the new spellcaster's magic missile or summon monster should work the same way that the extant technomancer one does. I don't think that we should go back to the heady days of no-cap d6/lvl spells. 3rd level spells should be a last ditch option for a 17th level caster.
Just my 2cp.
See, I'd want a 9th level spell list for this.
I don't know why people are still asking for this. I am just not seeing the difference between a 9th lvl pathfinder spell and 6th lvl starfinder spell. They are the SAME thing. What's the difference between a 9th/6th Wish spell?
Actually looking at the books 6th spells are way better because you get access at 16th lvl. In Pathfinder you get access to 9th lvl spells at lvl 17.
I'd stick to small arms. Anyone can use a pistol with limited training. Using melee weapons takes training and you're more likely to hurt yourself.
I would disagree, aside from the "more likely to hurt yourself" bit. Civilians, even children, are trained in what are effectively basic melee weapons all the time. Fists, batons, even small knives aren't terribly tricky with a little time spent getting to know how to hold it and where to strike. Probably won't do much damage, but at least you won't break your own hand.
I would disagree, aside from the "more likely to hurt yourself" bit. Civilians, even children, are trained in what are effectively basic melee weapons all the time. Fists, batons, even small knives aren't terribly tricky with a little time spent getting to know how to hold it and where to strike. Probably won't do much damage, but at least you won't break your own hand.I'd stick to small arms. Anyone can use a pistol with limited training. Using melee weapons takes training and you're more likely to hurt yourself.
Well, think of it more as which you would rather them have. Having both doesn't feel right. So if it is small arms or basic melee, the small arms make more sense to me.
Well, think of it more as which you would rather them have. Having both doesn't feel right. So if it is small arms or basic melee, the small arms make more sense to me.
It says this for wizards in pathfinder: "Wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a wizard’s movements, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail."
So why would you take away these basic proficiencies? Small arms and basic melee and the exact same thing as what's listed above.
Club, Dagger, HC, LC and QS are five total weapons. Two bludgeoning, one slashing or piercing, and two piercing.
Small arms covers 6 (or 7 if you count the needler) types of damage (P, B, E, F, So, C and needles). It also has far more total weapons, including 5 at first level alone.
Also, remember that in SF a weapon proficiency innate to the class is functionally worth two feats. They receive the basic proficiency itself, and then at third level they get Weapon Specialization. I just don't picture it improving that much with Melee weapons. I'd rather put the resources of those proficiencies into other things.
E.G. that would be the balance of giving it full BAB with spells.
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See, I'd want a 9th level spell list for this.I don't know why people are still asking for this. I am just not seeing the difference between a 9th lvl pathfinder spell and 6th lvl starfinder spell. They are the SAME thing. What's the difference between a 9th/6th Wish spell?
Actually looking at the books 6th spells are way better because you get access at 16th lvl. In Pathfinder you get access to 9th lvl spells at lvl 17.
9th level casters get a lot more spells per day than 6th level ones, and don't have as many non-spell class abilities. For some that's the desired structure.
The difference between a 6th level and 9th level wish spell is 3 points of save DC.
I don't think you need to have a new spell list to have a pure caster. The technomancer spell list seems pretty well rounded. Maybe throw in a couple of mystic spells and remove a couple of the more tech based spells from the refinished list to create the esoteric's list (I'm going to go ahead and start calling our caster class this) but as farlaughn has pointed out the 6/6 spells are prety equivalent to the 9/9 spell toned down a bit. To me a tweaked progession as opposed to changing spells levels is a lot easier. It would mean that the esoteric would get 6th spells at 15 and the have 5 6th level spells known at level 20. This to me fits the less powerful, but more flexible feel that starfinder has given casters.
As far as casting per day adding 1 to each level means that at level 20 assuming max key stat (i think this should be inteligence, but could be convinced otherwise) would mean casting 7 6th level spells per day and 8 2-5th level spells and 9 11st level spells. Features like combine spells and eternal spell can make this even more flexible. This should feel like a high level caster as you should have plenty of ability to cast a spell each round, it may just not be you best spell. But it won't be way behind you best either.
As far as the proficiencies go a wizard does not have simple weapon proficiency in pathfinder they have a subset. So a conversion for that would be a subset of basic melee and small arms. I think this is a good idea for our esoteric as we want to make using weapons both a bad option and hard to do. But it someone is willing to multiclass then they invest in another class and loose press progression but can manage to make it viable. I don't think lacking weapon proficiencies should really be a problem for an esoteric as they should have a spell ready for pretty much the whole day. Especially if we impliment the ray feature I talked about. Then they only need a backup weapon for when manic doesn't effect or when they gang's cast for some reason.
As far as why would have the esoteric? Well if there is magic someone is going to focus on that to the almost exclusion of other interests. Like how a mechanic focused on that and ignores magic. This would be that person. It would be for players who want to do everything with their mind. Who don't want to get their hands dirty with weapons. It would also be the class for "primitives" who haven't gotten technology but know and understand magic. Not everyone comes from a technologically advanced planet. Maybe they foot picked up from medevil Europe on the odd planet called earth ;) my point is there a place for a class that doesn't understand technology brought to be intertwining it with magic, but feels like a wizard not a psychic/cleric like the mystic.
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9th level casters get a lot more spells per day than 6th level ones, and don't have as many non-spell class abilities. For some that's the desired structure.
The difference between a 6th level and 9th level wish spell is 3 points of save DC.
"A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are the same as for a 7th-level spell. For the purpose of other effects that depend on spell level, wish counts as a 9th-level spell."
So technically the save DC difference ranges between 2 and 0I understand that some people like to play a class that has spells as the main option, but when you are out of high level spells you become a helpless bystander. YMMV depending on the GM, my GM tends to put two or three difficult encounters one after the other with almost no time to rest (we kinda have to choose between healing and keeping the short-time buffs).
Just out of curiosity has anyone seen the wizard conversion the starfairers companion did? How did they do theirs?
I don't think you need to have a new spell list to have a pure caster. The technomancer spell list seems pretty well rounded. Maybe throw in a couple of mystic spells and remove a couple of the more tech based spells from the refinished list to create the esoteric's list (I'm going to go ahead and start calling our caster class this) but as farlaughn has pointed out the 6/6 spells are prety equivalent to the 9/9 spell toned down a bit.
I agree that it's absolutely a lot easier to just keep (or minorly tweak) the technomancer progression/spell list. But I sincerely and vehemently disagree that what you end up with is a full caster.
Just comparing the PF and SF CRBs Technomancers get to choose from:
0th-11
1st-17
2nd-19
3rd-20
4th-18
5th-22
6th-23
Total: 130
Sorcerers get to choose from:
0th-20
1st-39
2nd-51
3rd-42
4th-42
5th-47
6th-47
Total (just up to 6th and not including bloodlines/spells from feats/PrCs): 288
The technomancer list (combined with the new combat dynamics) basically limits you to playing a glass cannon with a couple tricks up your sleeve and a few out of combat options (mostly centered around dealing with technology). The sorcerer spell list is so versatile you can basically pick a party role and do that one role well with just spells. You have over double the options as a sorcerer (not even counting 7-9ths, bloodlines, or spells from feats/PrCs), and it shows.
I absolutely agree that some of those Sor/Wiz spells should be nerfed (or put in line with what other SF characters can do at the level you'd get them). I also agree that some of those spells could be combined or eliminated or replaced with an existing spell on the technomancer and/or mystic list. What I don't agree with is that you can build a "pure caster" with a less than half-sized spell list that only adequately covers one combat role and call it a "pure caster" just because it gets X level spells a level earlier. "Pure casters" are (in my opinion) about options (either strategically or tactically). That's what makes them fun to play. Anything else is just a re-flavored technomancer or mystic.
For the record, I really like technomancers (and mystics). I think they're great and am looking forward to playing one (assuming my group decides to make the switch after I run the AP). I would just also like the option of playing a class that's truly focused on the magic part of sci-fi/fantasy, instead of one roughly focused on both equally. I don't think you can have that without a lot more magic available to pick from.
I understand that some people like to play a class that has spells as the main option, but when you are out of high level spells you become a helpless bystander. YMMV depending on the GM, my GM tends to put two or three difficult encounters one after the other with almost no time to rest (we kinda have to choose between healing and keeping the short-time buffs).
My absolute favorite combats as a caster are the ones where my DM has thrown a mix of 4 or 5 consecutive encounters at the party and I'm low on spells and have to resort to using unusual combos of low level spells or spells that focus on providing tactical advantage or that one last 7th or wand charge I was saving just for this occasion. I find those game days, especially when I know they're happening (like when we're trapped in a dungeon), to be the most enjoyable as a player. I never feel like a helpless bystander. Those situations are strategically/tactically engaging and when things go south, it usually isn't me that wants to quit and run hide in a rope trick and sleep. I'm the one trying to throw a flask of brown mold in the red dragon's mouth while everyone else runs away.
I hate it when I know I'm in a position to "blow my wad" on a single fight and then be able to rest effectively right afterward. Especially at high levels. It's never a fair fight. It's never hard (except in the rare occurrence when it's against another high level spellcaster AND they win initiative and blow their wad first). The first time I hit one of those fights, even in mid-level (9-15), is when I want to quit and start a new character. They're boring and it feels like ego stroking.
Obviously that's just how I feel about it. I'm sure there are plenty of players that feel the exact opposite and some of them want to play casters just to be able to blow their wad and completely gank a "hard" encounter. But I also think that those players should have that option and it's up to individual GMs and their parties to decide what games they like to play and what to allow.
Right now, as a GM, I feel like I can really only run one kind of campaign with one kind of group, and for me, that feels unsatisfying. Especially for a game with so much inherent scope (there are only 7 classes in the entire galaxy???). That feeling is wholly derived from a severe lack of class, spell/magic, and monster options extant in the game as sold. It looks fun, mind you, but after I run my group through the AP I'll probably quit if Paizo hasn't made more classes and a better/more complete monster/item/spell list. The more I read, the more this is starting to feel exactly how I felt reading/playing 4e. I don't need a game balance straight-jacket to make a fun game, I need the opposite.
Just out of curiosity has anyone seen the wizard conversion the starfairers companion did? How did they do theirs?
I've been debating buying that book, so I haven't read it, but I went and looked and I pulled this from one of the reviews:
Finally, the wizard gets 4 + Con stamina, 4 hp, 4 + Int skills per level, proficiency with light armor, basic melee weapons, small arms, grenades, ½ BAB-progression, good Will-saves, prepared Int-based spellcasting from the wizard’s list. Much like the cleric, the spell-levels go the full 9 levels of progression, thus deviating from Starfinder’s basic spellcasting engine. The wizard has a spellpad and the usual bond – object or familiar. There is a ton of customization via both arcane secrets and a massive array of arcane traditions. Notes for alternate or replaced class features are provided for all classes covered within this book.
It doesn't look like they did sorcerer/oracle. That's the only thing that held me back from buying it, thus far. I'd much rather allow those than Clerics/Wizards, which I feel are the most broken (other than druid) of the core classes. I think it might be worth the $20 for Bard/Ranger/Paladin/Magus, though.
Just out of curiosity has anyone seen the wizard conversion the starfairers companion did? How did they do theirs?
Nothing bad about Owen and the others who wrote it but it is riddled with errors. I also find details about certain races and classes over powered. I bought it but do not plan on using most of it in any of my games.
Club, Dagger, HC, LC and QS are five total weapons. Two bludgeoning, one slashing or piercing, and two piercing.
Small arms covers 6 (or 7 if you count the needler) types of damage (P, B, E, F, So, C and needles). It also has far more total weapons, including 5 at first level alone.
Using a pistol is equivalent to using a crossbow.
Using a quarterstaff is equivalent to using a baton.It doesn't matter how many pistols you can use. It's still considered a "pistol". This is the future. This is the same reason why there are only 190 spells in the corebook. The future has made a lot of things obsolete.
Also, remember that in SF a weapon proficiency innate to the class is functionally worth two feats. They receive the basic proficiency itself, and then at third level they get Weapon Specialization. I just don't picture it improving that much with Melee weapons. I'd rather put the resources of those proficiencies into other things.
E.G. that would be the balance of giving it full BAB with spells.
If it is a standard across all classes to get weapon specialization at lvl3. Why are we considering it a free feat when everyone gets it no matter what class you are?
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So, I'm a big fan of true casters (and I too would prefer a 9 level caster, but I understand the easier slotting of a 6). I also don't think that they are inherently unbalanced. I'm going to make a controversial statement.
The biggest problem with 9 level casters are GMs.
Let me explain. If the PCs (for this purpose, figure a Solider, Mystic, Operative and Technomancer) are confronted with a party similar to themselves, what do they usually do? I'm guessing they would target the Mystic first. Why? It allows the others to stay on their feet longer, or even brought back. If not healing, it also can be doing other harassing things and impeding abilities. Next the party would likely take down the technomancer since it is likely the squishiest target relative to its combat ability (which also may be why some parties would attack it first). Finally either the Solider or Operative would be targeted depending upon many factors, most likely which is the easier looking mark. In the case of a system with a true caster, you can be dang sure the robed dude throwing out fireballs is the first thing you go after.
By comparison, what does the NPC party do? Well, they tend to target randomly and it is even spelled out in certain materials "spread out ranged attacks among as many foes as possible" or variations of "attack whomever is closest" or "target foes who enter melee." Why? That other party is just as smart as the heroes. They should use similar tactics. Is there an Esoteric PC standing in the back casting summon monster V every round? I'm guessing the NPC soldier may say to herself "huh, maybe I should charge that guy and take the AOO" or maybe they protect their magic users so they can do their thing.
So play your NPCs to their fullest. If they are smart, have them act smart. Suddenly that caster might be using more of their spells to stay alive and fewer on the battle.
If it is a standard across all classes to get weapon specialization at lvl3. Why are we considering it a free feat when everyone gets it no matter what class you are?
Because my understanding of the rule is, if you take a weapon proficiency feat for a line that your class doesn't start with, you don't automatically get Weapon Specialization in that line. You have to spend another feat to get it. It even says it is a "a bonus feat for each weapon type this class grants you proficiency with."
The biggest problem with 9 level casters are GMs.
Preach!
Even when I build a crazy OP wizard (which is, honestly, what I usually do when I play), I know my GM isn't going to let me get away with all the stuff I know I can do in theory. We play under 'gentleman's agreements', such that even the stuff I know I'm allowed to do is only going to be used against me by an NPC at some future date, especially if I abuse it.
Because my understanding of the rule is, if you take a weapon proficiency feat for a line that your class doesn't start with, you don't automatically get Weapon Specialization in that line. You have to spend another feat to get it. It even says it is a "a bonus feat for each weapon type this class grants you proficiency with."
True. But what you said was
Also, remember that in SF a weapon proficiency innate to the class is functionally worth two feats.
Which my question is, If each class gets it as a standard why consider it worth 2 feats? (Typing on my phone so it might've not came out right.) Every single class gets at least small arms and basic melee weapons. That is essentially what it has always been. Effectively basic range and basic melee.
Druids, bows and basic melee.
Wizards and Sorcerers Cross bows and basic melee.
The biggest problem with 9 level casters are GMs.Preach!
Even when I build a crazy OP wizard (which is, honestly, what I usually do when I play), I know my GM isn't going to let me get away with all the stuff I know I can do in theory. We play under 'gentleman's agreements', such that even the stuff I know I'm allowed to do is only going to be used against me by an NPC at some future date, especially if I abuse it.
I think this is one reason why they changed casters in the game. Crazy OP wizards = not fun for the rest of the players not flinging magic.
I guess I just am looking at the overall value and flavor equation. All of the small arms are basically point and shoot. Makes sense to me that an Esoteric could learn to shoot a hand gun in their minimal spare time and carry that skill over to other similar hand guns. Also, every small arm created will likely look and function pretty similarly. IE if you can handle a 9mm, you can handle a .45, or a .22 handgun without much of a learning curve.
Basic melee however has a club, a baton, cestus, knives, swords, spears and staves. All of those require vastly different training and skill sets. I don't picture a space wizard taking the time to learn to use all of those.
So in reality the best flavor and balance option would be "small arms, plus knives and staves" but I think that is over complicated. So just small arms. I don't really think it would have much of a balance effect (they shouldn't be in melee) and if they want to use a sword, they can spend the feats which make sense for the extra training time required.
I understand the frustration that the current spell lists would give a pure caster that used one, or a combination of, those lists, but I think that is a problem that will solve itself in time. Currenly we only have the core rule book and the alien archive, plus a couple of options sprinkled into the ap. You can't really compare this to the years of material that pathfinder has backing it up. I bet off you compared the core rule books the numbers should still be bigger for pathfinder, but the gap should be way smaller.
As far as the proficencies go, if we were to model this esoteric class as a wizard class converted it would use a subset of small arms and basic weapons as they have a subset of simple weapons in pathfinder. If we were to base it as a sorcerer converted we would be giving it both proficencies as sorcerers have simple weapons. Or we can throw out the idea that this is a conversion and do what we feel is appropriate. I could see an argument for basic melee weapons only. This would give the esoteric melee options without having to fiddle with a subset which is a good thing. Also it would give access to some ranged options outside of spells in spear usage, but it would definitely be backup. Which since they would be more accurate with the ray feature I've proposed should be fine. An esoteric wouldn't really get much use out of small arms typically anyways, and this way they can't pick up longarma easily. So thoughts?
Edit: I was wrong, the number shown WERE comparing the core rule books. That is a genuine concern. The question becomes how to solve this issue. One option would be to use the 9/9 framework and create/concert all of the spells. Another other option would be to combine the mystic and technomancer spell lists and stay with the 6/6 framework. A third option would be to do use the 6/6 framework and do some combining and some creating/converting of spell. Personally I think the third option is the best path as it is both the least work and the least disruptive to the game. Thoughts?
I can see the arguement for the esoteric having small arms proficiency and from a sensical standpoint I agree it makes sense. At the same time from a game mechanics standpoint I think basic melee weapons fits the needs of the class better and does a better job of limiting them from picking up long arms. At the same time idk if long arms would really be a great choice anyways since they'd have the 1/2 BAB and it would still take 2 feats...
I think this is one reason why they changed casters in the game. Crazy OP wizards = not fun for the rest of the players not flinging magic.
I think you misread my quote, or missed the context of what I was replying to. My "crazy OP wizards" are only ever OP in theory. They never actually get played that way, because my DM's never allow me to get away with that (and frankly, I don't find that fun any more than the other players would). A class is only ever as OP as the DM/Group allows. It's only ever not fun for my party when I abuse it, and I don't. The rest of the time they're quite happy to have me around backing them up in whatever they're doing, because I'm good at it.
But I also have argued, in both this thread and the one it's based on, that I don't think Wizards (and Clerics/Druids/other memorizers) should be allowed, at all, and I'd much prefer porting the very much more easily balanced Sorcerer/Oracles (or something that works like them) into SF.
Yes, I know that there are builds/options with those two that are also broken. It's not the classes, though. You just have to fix the broken spells and leave out the broken options and respect that DMs/Groups are capable (well, should be capable) of self-regulating what they want to play. Even if they want to use whatever broken things remain.
For a long time I wasn't allowed to play melee characters because in one high level early 3.5 campaign I built someone that pumped out something like 300 damage in a single round and was one/two round unhittably soloing every nigh epic dragon in every combat and for a long time afterward my group thought Fighters were the most brokenly OP class. That was on me and my then less experienced DM, not on the class itself.
I think when we're discussing class balance or creating a new class it's important to remember that what we can get away with in theory on the boards != what most of us will ever actually get away with in play with a real live group of our real life friends. That's what I was trying to say.
Or, maybe I'm completely wrong there and my group is just awesome. Most of our internal conflict centers on how people are 'roleplaying' their characters. Right now, we're all pissed off at the rogue because he keeps making illegal side deals with every thief he can find in every town we try to stop in for downtime and eventually gets us run out of town with the cops or an army on our heels.
Edit: I was wrong, the number shown WERE comparing the core rule books. That is a genuine concern. The question becomes how to solve this issue. One option would be to use the 9/9 framework and create/concert all of the spells. Another other option would be to combine the mystic and technomancer spell lists and stay with the 6/6 framework. A third option would be to do use the 6/6 framework and do some combining and some creating/converting of spell. Personally I think the third option is the best path as it is both the least work and the least disruptive to the game. Thoughts?
If I had time, I'd personally choose to hand convert/nerf/combine all the spells in the PFCRB to match the potency/level curve of SF, but keep the 9/9 framework (sorcerer style casting) and adjust class abilities for the Esoteric class so they aren't OP. I think that's the only way you can build a spell list for a effective and fun pure caster. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to do that and that's a lot of work. Especially since I'm already having to waste time hand building monsters for random encounters (my group loves random encounters, even when we play AP's). I'd be happy to contribute to that effort, or any effort to build a new spell-list though.
All this is meant to be just me speaking my opinion, by the by. I am a bit miffed at the developers for the lack of class/spell/monster options in the two books and two AP's I got so far. But I'm not intending to be rude in any way to anyone in this thread over a difference of opinion. I apologize if my text is coming across that way.
No you are fine. I understand not having the time to build half a book by yourself lol. That's one of the reasons I have pushed for a 6/6 framework honestly.
And it's fine to disagree. I'm glad to hear other people and just because I started this thread doesn't mean I'm the boss. I figure this is a colaberative effort and thought exercise. :)
Also, my point earlier was not that pure 9 level casters are OP. My point was GMs A. Don't take advantage of the weaknesses built in to the classes (squishy, concentration, limited spells per day) and B. don't use their full casters properly against PCs. "Dr. Mordred is a level 14 Wizard. He has nothing but blasts memorized."
If a crazy vesk soldier that deals 12D6 of damage on a hit is running after my teammate who is a skittermander caster with 50 HP, you can be sure I'm going to be rushing to help and it will be a less static fight. But since people have certain "rules of PC/GM" engagement, you end up with slug fests.
I asked in the thread about Starfarer's Companion, and it looks like they already updated (read:made work like SF spells) at least some of the core PF spells, in addition to adding back 7-9th for their implementation of Cleric/Wizard.
I'm going to go ahead and purchase it tomorrow and give it a once over this weekend.
I really do not want to add wizards/clerics back in, but I may be able to fumble in a sorcerer using their list if it isn't too broken and one of my players really wants to play it. It also looks like their Magus, Ranger, and Paladin implementations are somewhat well received and more class options isn't a bad thing.
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Alright, here's a poke at this. The main thing I think it is missing is a little more of the Unabalanced flavor. Maybe some weaknesses to the opposing side. Terminology could also use some cleaning up. I think the unbalancing also works quite well for rewarding specialization which should cut down on "do anything" casters. Anywho, without further ado...
Esoteric
While some seek to balance life and death, darkness and light, and hot and cold to help an eternal cycle, others instead try to harness one half of the universe for the benefit of those whom they care about. By seeking to unbalance the equations of the universe, you believe that you can do far more than those who chose not to. By focussing this imbalance into an implement of your will, you harness the forces of the universe to reach heights of spellcasting not seen since before the Gap.
Hit Points: 4
BAB: 1/2 (Full for spells when Implement is manifested)
Stamina Points: 4+ Constitution Modifier
Key Ability Score: Your Intelligence feeds your ability to unwind the strings that make up the universe to craft your spells, so Intelligence is your key ability score. A high Consitution or Dexterity score can help make you able to survive combat longer.
Class Skills: Bluff, Culture, Intimidate, Life Science, Medicine, Mysticism, Physical Science, Profession, Sense Motive
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Intelligence Modifer
Proficiences: Armor-Light, Weapons-Small Arms plus Implement
Saves: Good Will
Spells: You cast spells drawn from all spell lists. Your number of spells per day is below. You recieve bonus spells for both a higher intelligence, as well as for your commitment to one side of the universe which also imparts other benefits. These are detailed below. You only know a limited number of spells...
*Rather take up space with a chart, basically follow the wizard spells per day progression until level level 10 (4 ,4 ,3 ,3, 2). Minor bump at 11, then get level 6 spells at 12. Follow logical progression to level 20 ending at 6 spells per day. Follow same bonus spell chart as Mystic. For spells known, follow mystic spells known, but bump the levels down (e.g. 2 2nd level spells known at level 3, 2 3rd level spells known at 5th, etc), topping out at 7 spells of each level known for 0-4 and 6 known for 5-6.*
Force Implement: At first level you gain access to an implement representing your connection to half of the primary forces of the universe. This implement may take the form of either a melee weapon, or a peice of clothing. You may only manifest a force implement if you are unbalanced. You can change your manifestation each time you gain a level. If you select a weapon, treat it like a Solar weapon using 1/2 your Esotetic level for all compat purposes. While your implement is manifested, treat your BAB as your character level for any spell attack rolls.
Unbalance: Your place in balance is determined by your spell selection. Spells of the "Light" are those of the Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination and Enchantment Schools. "Dark" side spells are Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy and Transmutation. For every 3 spells your are unbalanced, you recieve extra spells per day using the chart below. *Basically use the mystic bonus spells chart again, except each iteration is based on the 3 spells of unabalancing* These spells may only be cast when your implement is manifested.
Meta-Force: At 4th level, and each 4 levels afterward, you gain access to the ability to utilize meta-magic effects on your spells. These cannot be changed once selected. To implement a meta-magic effect, you must spend resolve equal to the spell level of the spell cast. Any number of meta-magic effects may be combined provided you have enough resolve.
Maximize: Any random rolls (damage, duration or range) are maximized.
Lengthen: Any non-random durations are doubled.
Pierce: Increase the DC against the spell by half the normal value.
Expand: Any non-random ranges or effect areas are doubled.
Penetrate: Double your caster level for your attempt to overcome spell resistance. Your implement must be manifested to use this ability.
Quick Casting: At 9th level, the Esoteric gains the ability to cast two spells in one round as a full round action by expending one resolve point. The casting times must be one standard action or less. The total levels of the two spells combined must be less than or equal to the Esoterics level minus 8. Your implement must be manifested to use this ability.
At 18th level, an Esoteric may cast Wish as a full round action expending 9 levels of spell slots and spending a resolve point. Your implement must be manifested to use this ability.
I like a lot of this. I need to take some time and work out the spells progression and known as it seems a bit complex. Also idk if all spell lists is a great idea. For now it's ok, but in the future I expect there will be more casting classes and something so open ended lends itself to exploitaion. Also idk about the resolve cost to use the meta magic. I just don't have a good understanding of how much resolve a character really has. It seems like you'd burn resolve super fast to use that feature much at all.
Well, if you figure a maxed an Int of 22 (relatively conservative), you would have 11 resolve points at level 10. There are feats to get extra resolve too. And for kinda like the flavor of burning your resolve (ability to stabilize) to give something that extra oomph.
The spell progression sounds more complex than it is. Here. Charts don't look too good, but....
Spells per day:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 3 1
2 4 2
3 4 2 1
4 4 3 2
5 4 3 2 1
6 5 3 3 2
7 5 4 3 2 1
8 5 4 3 3 2
9 5 4 4 3 2 1
10 6 4 4 3 3 2
11 6 5 4 4 3 2
12 6 5 4 4 3 3 1
And Spells Known:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6
1 4 2
2 5 3
3 6 4 2
4 6 4 3
5 6 4 4 2
6 6 4 4 3
7 6 5 4 4 2
8 6 5 4 4 3
9 6 5 5 4 4 2
10 7 5 5 4 4 3
11 7 6 5 5 4 4
12 7 6 5 5 4 4 2
13 7 6 6 5 5 4 3
14 7 7 6 5 5 4 4
15 7 7 6 6 5 5 4
16 7 7 7 6 5 5 4
17 7 7 7 6 6 5 4
18 7 7 7 7 6 5 5
19 7 7 7 7 6 6 5
20 7 7 7 7 7 6 6
What does it look like if you go fill unbalanced? It doesn't seem like you get very many casings per day of you aren't unbalanced.
This is fine as the class levels up and gets more tools. The problem is at lower levels. Yeah I could gun for the wizard as a GM, but honestly when even relatively weak enemies have a 30% chance to one shot them it isn't fun for anyone.
At those low levels, the Wizard isn't the biggest threat, so the NPCs would largely go after the Soldier or such. Enemies who are intelligent need to have tactics that change just as much as the players. Animals or things with an very low int, well, they tend to react by instinct and would just go ahead whatever is closest or hit them last.
As for progression if you went fully Imbalanced (I think that sounds better than Un)
Spells per day (this would be with no Int bonus, so real number would usually be 1-2 higher):
--1 2 3 4 5 6
1 2
2 3
3 3 2
4 4 3
5 5 3 2
6 5 4 3
7 6 5 4 1
8 6 5 5 3
9 6 6 5 4 2
10 7 6 5 5 3
11 7 7 6 5 4
12 8 7 7 5 5 3
And yes, an Imbalanced Esoteric does get a lot more spells potentially. But, they also lose a lot of versatility. Which is a big part of the balancing act. In a lot of ways it almost works like a heightened version of Specialist Wizards. Pick a school, gen bonus spells in that school, opposition ones are harder to cast. In the long run, it isn't really much of a penalty since the cost of preparing an opposition school spell (costing 2 slots) is basically offset by the extra spell slot per spell level (at least for one casting per day). Here, if you pick a path and stick with it, you will have a decent bit more raw ability to cast, but you give up versatility to do it.
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So I've been tinkering away at my own version of this, and I may one day write it up fully, but the more I look at the technomancer I still think it's everything you'd be looking for in a caster class. You need more options of course. A few more spell hacks and a few more spells would help round out the feeling of a mystical artisan rather than someone that combines tech and magic, but the basic class itself is relatively sound.
Since archetypes are kind of terrible anyways, how about this one:
Archetype - Escotericist
You are a student of the mind and of magic, not of the moment. Let others sully their training by using computerized shortcuts; you know the deepest secrets of magic will only be revealed to those who study the old methods, the way it was meant to be learned.
Requirements: this archetype may only be applied to a class that offers 6th level spellcasting.
2nd level - Applied Theories: Rather than adapting the the digital world around you, you seek to apply your mystical knowledge in everyday life, sometimes with surprising results.
- Your BAB when making a spell attack roll becomes equal to your level in this class.
- For the purposes of starship combat, you may use your mysticism skill insteaf of computers and your intimidate skill in place of engineering if they are higher.
- Finally, you gain the ability to cast energy ray as an at-will spell like ability, except that its damage becomes 1d8 per highest spell level you are able to cast from this class (2d8 at level 4, 3d8 at level 7, etc).
Could go the 5e warlock route. Less saves,less spells/day, bUT by burning resolve you get slots back. That and metamagic class features would make a caster that feels different.
I also like the idea that certain tech objects malfunction due to the magic overload, like Dresden, for the sake of keeping them spell-focused, though I know not everyone thinks that's a good idea lol
That's in fact what I'm basing my version of the class on. One of the issues I ran into that caused me to close Word was that while starfinder uses the concepts of long and short rests, they don't actually use the terms. It's kind of annoying, although I assume they have their reasons. Same with advantage and disadvantage.
Although if you want metamagic, technomancer is still your best bet. Most magic hacks are metamagic of some form or another.