Deathwatch on a Simulacrum


Rules Questions


So I have a big bad lich that I want the PC's to encounter later in the game at a higher level. In order to fool the party into thinking he is dead he is setting up a simulacrum in his old hide out. Contingency effect in place so when the simulacrum is killed it pops an illusion of bones and cloth instead of ice along with fake phylactery.

However one of my players has deathwatch eyes. Which according to text.

"You instantly know whether each creature within the area is dead, fragile (alive and wounded, with 3 or fewer hit points left), fighting off death (alive with 4 or more hit points), healthy, undead, or neither alive nor dead (such as a construct)."

As for Simulacrum.
"Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature’s levels or HD. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check."

Would he know this Simulacrum is neither alive nor dead? Or would the Simulacrum be shown as undead? Or would I need to make a Disguise check for him to see through?


Wait...is he already a lich and do the players know?

If the players know he's a lich then the body wont matter. The players will go looking for the phylactery to destroy it.

In which case the lich simple disguise another item to look like his phylactery (using magic aura) and also hide the real phylactery.


Claxon wrote:

Wait...is he already a lich and do the players know?

If the players know he's a lich then the body wont matter. The players will go looking for the phylactery to destroy it.

In which case the lich simple disguise another item to look like his phylactery (using magic aura) and also hide the real phylactery.

Yes party knows he is a lich but has never seen him before. They got information on where his base is from a henchman that "let it slip".

And that's exactly what I'm doing with the phylactery. Just having it be in the room with magic aura on it. But as for when the simulacrum is destroyed it turns into snow. I'm sure that liches don't turn into snow when killed and that the cleric with max ranks in knowledge religion would know that. I'm just trying to figure out if said cleric would be able to tell that the simulacrum is not alive or dead or if it would read it as undead.

The Exchange

Pathfinder LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition Subscriber

The person with deathwatch will know the illusion is not undead, thus not the lich is what I am taking from it.

I dug deeper because of the vague wording and "special abilities" and found this post from James Jacobs.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ljov?Simulacrum#8

Looks like that blanket term covers type and alignment as well. So it would ping as undead.


Simulacrum is one of the most argued over spells. As written, it creates a replica that functions for all extent and purposes as the creature is is modeled after. So if you make an undead simulacrum, it is undead. A human simulacrum is humanoid: human. For almost all purposes, even if the disguise of the simulacrum is identified as being a fake, it is treated as a creature of its (faux) type.

With one gigantic exception. It cannot be cured of HP damage by any means other than a lab repairing the damage. This can serve as another means of detection of a fake, but it also opens up one of the big arguments - is a simulacrum "alive" for spells, features or abilities that detect such things. Further, even though it is construct-like, it is not a construct and cannot be mended either. Fast heal, regeneration, none of that works for repairing HP damage - as the spell requires.

I have always played this as yes, you are fooled the creature is alive -- or in your case yes, undead -- unless you make that perception or sense motive check, but have also strictly played that such a creature cannot heal without that lab. A well worded wish or miracle excepted, where it is specifically stated in the wish/miracle that the simulacrum was repaired fully as if repaired in a proper lab.

So, I think your plan if fine! Just remember no negative channeling or negative energy curing will ever repair lost HP for the thing.


As others have said, Simulacrum is vague enough and weird enough that probably finding 'proof' of how it should work is not going to happen.

One the one hand, Simulacrum copies type, which means that having deathwatch reveal 'undead' makes some sense. On the other hand, Deathwatch isn't a 'type detector' with the exception of Undead, the other things it detects (Health Status and 'Not Alive or Dead') aren't types, so it makes sense that what is it detecting when it detects undead is a 'life/soul force' of which all things of the Type of Undead have a similar signature.

I think in my game, I'd probably have Deathwatch tell the caster that it was both 'Undead' and 'Neither Alive nor Dead' and let them figure out what that meant (maybe with a Spellcraft roll) but I don't have any strong rules justification for that particular decision.


Dave Justus wrote:

As others have said, Simulacrum is vague enough and weird enough that probably finding 'proof' of how it should work is not going to happen.

One the one hand, Simulacrum copies type, which means that having deathwatch reveal 'undead' makes some sense. On the other hand, Deathwatch isn't a 'type detector' with the exception of Undead, the other things it detects (Health Status and 'Not Alive or Dead') aren't types, so it makes sense that what is it detecting when it detects undead is a 'life/soul force' of which all things of the Type of Undead have a similar signature.

I think in my game, I'd probably have Deathwatch tell the caster that it was both 'Undead' and 'Neither Alive nor Dead' and let them figure out what that meant (maybe with a Spellcraft roll) but I don't have any strong rules justification for that particular decision.

This is a conceptually fun idea, but in order to be consistent - if Deathwatch Eyes were looking at an idle golem, is it alive? If the golem has been awakened, is it alive? What about Children of the Stars (Androids)? Your answer to these kinds of questions determine what you mean by alive. If you feel Awakened Constructs are alive, then I would so with a Simulacrum or even an aware Wax Golem as also being alive. If not, the play is the way Dave suggests.


Agent Eclipse wrote:

The person with deathwatch will know the illusion is not undead, thus not the lich is what I am taking from it.

I dug deeper because of the vague wording and "special abilities" and found this post from James Jacobs.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ljov?Simulacrum#8

Looks like that blanket term covers type and alignment as well. So it would ping as undead.

I just read through it and James had this to say.

What about their creature type? Does it match the originals, or are they constructs?
They are not constructs. Creature type is the same as the original

Thanks for the help. This definitely answered my question. Deathwatch will show it as undead


The simulacrum would detect as undead...until they destroyed it. Then it wouldn't detect at all as it would no longer be a dead creature. That's your giveaway.


Why do you need a simulacrum?

Allow the lich to be destroyed and let the players think they've destroyed the phylactery.

Bonus points if the lich can give them some long term disability.


2bz2p wrote:
This is a conceptually fun idea, but in order to be consistent - if Deathwatch Eyes were looking at an idle golem, is it alive? If the golem has been awakened, is it alive? What about Children of the Stars (Androids)? Your answer to these kinds of questions determine what you mean by alive. If you feel Awakened Constructs are alive, then I would so with a Simulacrum or even an aware Wax Golem as also being alive. If not, the play is the way Dave suggests.

I am pretty sure that a regular golem, whether idle or not would detect as neither alive nor dead.

Similarly, an android is definitely alive. It would detect as being dead, fragile, fighting off death or healthy depending on its current hit points. It would not detect as 'neither alive nor dead.' Remember that Deathwatch doesn't 'detect' constructs' it detects 'neither alive nor dead' and (most) constructs are examples of something that would detect that way.

An awakened construct is a harder question is it changes the "animating force of a construct to more closely resemble a true soul." That being said, I don't think awakened constructs can be resurrected or anything like that and since they don't have the potential to become a 'dead creature' which is one way of looking at what things are alive. A wax golem is less 'alive' than an awakened contstruct, at least by my reading so if an awakened construct is neither dead or alive, so is a wax golem.

Exactly what Deathwatch keys on is a mystery, 'life force' seems to be part of it, but of course that isn't explicit or defined anywhere. You can tell something is undead, but you can't tell get any reading on that things current hit points but you can get general ranges for 'living' creatures.

I think every GM would have to rule for themselves what Deathwatch is seeing and how well Simulacrum copies whatever that is.

I don't think the undeniable fact that Simulacrum copies type necessarily means that it copies whatever it is deathwatch sees.


A simulacrum of a [un-]living creature is a [un-]living creature. Spells that work on [un-]living creatures work on simulacra. Deathwatch is no exception.


blahpers wrote:
A simulacrum of a [un-]living creature is a [un-]living creature. Spells that work on [un-]living creatures work on simulacra. Deathwatch is no exception.

Cure light wounds doesn't think so.


Classically in this situation the simulacrum needs to fall into something unsurvivable as it dies. A river of lava or similar. This will also remove the snowy evidence.


Dave Justus wrote:
blahpers wrote:
A simulacrum of a [un-]living creature is a [un-]living creature. Spells that work on [un-]living creatures work on simulacra. Deathwatch is no exception.
Cure light wounds doesn't think so.

Oh? Why not?


blahpers wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
blahpers wrote:
A simulacrum of a [un-]living creature is a [un-]living creature. Spells that work on [un-]living creatures work on simulacra. Deathwatch is no exception.
Cure light wounds doesn't think so.
Oh? Why not?

Right, the spell says you can spend 100 gp/HP and 24 hours to repair damage, but it doesn’t say they don’t heal naturally or via magic, too.


Doesn't an undead turn to dust when reduced to zero HP? So there's no body to detect as 'dead'. If you set the room up as an icehouse, you explain the meltwater, and if you just carry some ash or contingencied burnables, you can provide ash.

Lich is supposed to be genius, yes?


Thornborn wrote:

Doesn't an undead turn to dust when reduced to zero HP? So there's no body to detect as 'dead'. If you set the room up as an icehouse, you explain the meltwater, and if you just carry some ash or contingencied burnables, you can provide ash.

Lich is supposed to be genius, yes?

They're destroyed, but as far as I know they don't turn to dust. You'd need some bit of it to cast resurrection, after all, which specifically requires a small bit of the body but is able to revive ex-undead remains.


contingency disintegrate on the "corpse" when the simulacrum dies

The Exchange

Pathfinder LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
blahpers wrote:
A simulacrum of a [un-]living creature is a [un-]living creature. Spells that work on [un-]living creatures work on simulacra. Deathwatch is no exception.
Cure light wounds doesn't think so.
Oh? Why not?

Per the link I posted above from James Jacobs is one reference in favor of why not.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ljov?Simulacrum#10

Only healing it can receive is through the stated means within the spell.


You could put nondetection or mindblank on the simulacrum so it wouldn’t detect at all. That’s what I’d do as an evil caster we’re I trying to fool someone. The detection spell would simply get nothing.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
You could put nondetection or mindblank on the simulacrum so it wouldn’t detect at all. That’s what I’d do as an evil caster we’re I trying to fool someone. The detection spell would simply get nothing.

But Deathwatch is a necromancy spell. Nondetection and Mindblank won't help against it.


Dave Justus wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
You could put nondetection or mindblank on the simulacrum so it wouldn’t detect at all. That’s what I’d do as an evil caster we’re I trying to fool someone. The detection spell would simply get nothing.
But Deathwatch is a necromancy spell. Nondetection and Mindblank won't help against it.

Good catch. I stand corrected.


Xenocrat wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
blahpers wrote:
A simulacrum of a [un-]living creature is a [un-]living creature. Spells that work on [un-]living creatures work on simulacra. Deathwatch is no exception.
Cure light wounds doesn't think so.
Oh? Why not?
Right, the spell says you can spend 100 gp/HP and 24 hours to repair damage, but it doesn’t say they don’t heal naturally or via magic, too.

No - not true, no cures for your simulacrum - unless that's a house rule. James Jacobs was crystal on his advice to GMs on this:

Q: Healing a construct/simulacrum can be expensive, but is there anything preventing you from healing it normally (such as by cure spells) and thereby bypassing the costs?

A: The only way to heal damage caused to a simulacrum is to do so as described in the last sentence of the spell—by spending 100 gp per hit point and 24 hours in a magical laboratory to fix the damage. Healing spells don't cut it. It's only partially real, after all.


There's a spell whose name escapes me, but it basically lets a lich "act as if still living" for a period of time. If someone could remember the spell it may work on the "undead" simulacrum to fool detection


2bz2p wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
blahpers wrote:
A simulacrum of a [un-]living creature is a [un-]living creature. Spells that work on [un-]living creatures work on simulacra. Deathwatch is no exception.
Cure light wounds doesn't think so.
Oh? Why not?
Right, the spell says you can spend 100 gp/HP and 24 hours to repair damage, but it doesn’t say they don’t heal naturally or via magic, too.

No - not true, no cures for your simulacrum - unless that's a house rule. James Jacobs was crystal on his advice to GMs on this:

Q: Healing a construct/simulacrum can be expensive, but is there anything preventing you from healing it normally (such as by cure spells) and thereby bypassing the costs?

A: The only way to heal damage caused to a simulacrum is to do so as described in the last sentence of the spell—by spending 100 gp per hit point and 24 hours in a magical laboratory to fix the damage. Healing spells don't cut it. It's only partially real, after all.

James Jacobs’ advice doesn’t modify the actual rules text of the spell, which states a novel way you may heal simulacrums without barring the usual methods of healing.


JJ is wrong. Except in the context of his own table, in which case he's absolutely right.


James Jacobs' advice is indeed not necessarily rules binding.

That said, the arguments he presents stand and fall on their own merits. As he pointed out, the simulacrum is only partially real, and no where in it does it say that it creates a living creature (or an undead creature). It creates a creature that is 'partially real and formed from ice or snow.' We don't know a whole lot about such creatures, since the only examples I know of are products of this spell, and the spell doesn't say a whole lot about them, but it certainly doesn't say they are 'living' or a valid target for a CLW spell.

Beyond that, I find it hard to accept that anyone would have bothered to even find a process where 24 hours, 100 gp and a fully equipped laboratory can heal a single HP, if a cure light wounds spell will work instead. Granted, it doesn't say specifically that CLW won't work, but the existence of the process strongly implies it in my opinion, and saying that CLW will work it adding things to the spell that aren't there.

In fact, the "partially real" clause gives good evidence that either deathwatch should return either
1) 'both' the thing (living, undead etc.) that the thing would be copied from would return and "neither alive nor dead"
or
2) just "neither alive nor dead".

Certainly I can't see the part that isn't real returning anything but "neither alive nor dead".

The Exchange

Pathfinder LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition Subscriber

The Jacobs quote doesn't overwrite RAW because it hasn't been errat'd but it is a very clear indication of an official RAI of it. He even made that clear with his lead statement. Jacobs is right at many tables I am sure but outside of PFS the rules are completely adjustable.

Playing strict RAW is only going to give way to massive shenanigans.

---

I think the "It appears to be the same as the original" clause signifies it pinging as the copied creature. It is part of the spell and reading deathwatch it says it only pierces feign death spells.

.


Agent Eclipse wrote:

deathwatch it says it only pierces feign death spells.

Actually, you are inventing the only. Deathwatch would reveal that a lich under the effects of a disguise self is an undead creature, for example. It doesn't exactly 'pierce' the illusion, but certainly reveals that something is 'off'.


The reason Jacobs clarifies you can only repair a simulacrum with lab work is because spells are not written to prove every negative (it doesn't say) but to note when things are excepted from normal rules. In this case, it describes the ONLY way you can repair a simulacrum. That actually is RAW, not even RAI, because the clause defines the way it can be repaired and allows for no other. If it did it would have said so "in addition to normal healing...." or "Treat simulacrum as contructs in regards to restoring HP" but it does not because there is only one way to repair a simulacrum, as the spell clarifies.

Since I think that's clear (I'm sticking with it) it does shed light on what Deathwatch would see. Cures cure LIVING creatures, Simulacrum's of living creatures cannot be cured or regain HPs like Living creatures. Why? They are not actually living.


2bz2p wrote:

The reason Jacobs clarifies you can only repair a simulacrum with lab work is because spells are not written to prove every negative (it doesn't say) but to note when things are excepted from normal rules. In this case, it describes the ONLY way you can repair a simulacrum. That actually is RAW, not even RAI, because the clause defines the way it can be repaired and allows for no other. If it did it would have said so "in addition to normal healing...." or "Treat simulacrum as contructs in regards to restoring HP" but it does not because there is only one way to repair a simulacrum, as the spell clarifies.

Since I think that's clear (I'm sticking with it) it does shed light on what Deathwatch would see. Cures cure LIVING creatures, Simulacrum's of living creatures cannot be cured or regain HPs like Living creatures. Why? They are not actually living.

So you give them construct immunities to poison, disease, suffocation, and non-object Fortitude saves, too?


pretty sure things like fast healing would heal the simulacrum


Xenocrat wrote:
2bz2p wrote:

The reason Jacobs clarifies you can only repair a simulacrum with lab work is because spells are not written to prove every negative (it doesn't say) but to note when things are excepted from normal rules. In this case, it describes the ONLY way you can repair a simulacrum. That actually is RAW, not even RAI, because the clause defines the way it can be repaired and allows for no other. If it did it would have said so "in addition to normal healing...." or "Treat simulacrum as contructs in regards to restoring HP" but it does not because there is only one way to repair a simulacrum, as the spell clarifies.

Since I think that's clear (I'm sticking with it) it does shed light on what Deathwatch would see. Cures cure LIVING creatures, Simulacrum's of living creatures cannot be cured or regain HPs like Living creatures. Why? They are not actually living.

So you give them construct immunities to poison, disease, suffocation, and non-object Fortitude saves, too?

No. The same Jacobs article on Simulacrum confirmed the simulacrum has the same type as the creature it is modeled after, is in all ways like the creature it is modeled after, except they do not recover hit points in the same way as the creature it is modeled after.


Lady-J wrote:
pretty sure things like fast healing would heal the simulacrum

Nope.

To quote directly again: "The only way to heal damage caused to a simulacrum is to do so as described in the last sentence of the spell—by spending 100 gp per hit point and 24 hours in a magical laboratory to fix the damage. Healing spells don't cut it. It's only partially real, after all."

Simulacrum trolls do not regenerate, for example.


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2bz2p wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
pretty sure things like fast healing would heal the simulacrum

Nope.

To quote directly again: "The only way to heal damage caused to a simulacrum is to do so as described in the last sentence of the spell—by spending 100 gp per hit point and 24 hours in a magical laboratory to fix the damage. Healing spells don't cut it. It's only partially real, after all."

Simulacrum trolls do not regenerate, for example.

jj is also not the rules guy


Lady-J wrote:
2bz2p wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
pretty sure things like fast healing would heal the simulacrum

Nope.

To quote directly again: "The only way to heal damage caused to a simulacrum is to do so as described in the last sentence of the spell—by spending 100 gp per hit point and 24 hours in a magical laboratory to fix the damage. Healing spells don't cut it. It's only partially real, after all."

Simulacrum trolls do not regenerate, for example.

jj is also not the rules guy

Who is?

besides, it's irrelevant, it's what the spell says. When a spell has a specific it replaces the general, there is no need to prove the negative. The spell tells you how to repair a damaged simulacrum, which is an illusionary creature at its core, and offers it not as an additional way, but as THE one way allowed.


2bz2p wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
2bz2p wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
pretty sure things like fast healing would heal the simulacrum

Nope.

To quote directly again: "The only way to heal damage caused to a simulacrum is to do so as described in the last sentence of the spell—by spending 100 gp per hit point and 24 hours in a magical laboratory to fix the damage. Healing spells don't cut it. It's only partially real, after all."

Simulacrum trolls do not regenerate, for example.

jj is also not the rules guy

Who is?

besides, it's irrelevant, it's what the spell says. When a spell has a specific it replaces the general, there is no need to prove the negative. The spell tells you how to repair a damaged simulacrum, which is an illusionary creature at its core, and offers it not as an additional way, but as THE one way allowed.

that just offers an additional way to repair them

A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

this process can be used to repair them it is by no means the only way to do so however


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
There's a spell whose name escapes me, but it basically lets a lich "act as if still living" for a period of time. If someone could remember the spell it may work on the "undead" simulacrum to fool detection

I believe you're thinking of Appearance of Life (or possibly Daywalker); Appearance of Life looks like it would in fact work on a Simulacrum, so long as the Simulacrum is an Undead crature.


LadyGrayRose wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
There's a spell whose name escapes me, but it basically lets a lich "act as if still living" for a period of time. If someone could remember the spell it may work on the "undead" simulacrum to fool detection
I believe you're thinking of Appearance of Life (or possibly Daywalker); Appearance of Life looks like it would in fact work on a Simulacrum, so long as the Simulacrum is an Undead crature.

ooooo day walker looks dope

Liberty's Edge

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2bz2p wrote:

Simulacrum is one of the most argued over spells. As written, it creates a replica that functions for all extent and purposes as the creature is is modeled after. So if you make an undead simulacrum, it is undead. A human simulacrum is humanoid: human. For almost all purposes, even if the disguise of the simulacrum is identified as being a fake, it is treated as a creature of its (faux) type.

With one gigantic exception. It cannot be cured of HP damage by any means other than a lab repairing the damage. This can serve as another means of detection of a fake, but it also opens up one of the big arguments - is a simulacrum "alive" for spells, features or abilities that detect such things. Further, even though it is construct-like, it is not a construct and cannot be mended either. Fast heal, regeneration, none of that works for repairing HP damage - as the spell requires.

I have always played this as yes, you are fooled the creature is alive -- or in your case yes, undead -- unless you make that perception or sense motive check, but have also strictly played that such a creature cannot heal without that lab. A well worded wish or miracle excepted, where it is specifically stated in the wish/miracle that the simulacrum was repaired fully as if repaired in a proper lab.

So, I think your plan if fine! Just remember no negative channeling or negative energy curing will ever repair lost HP for the thing.

Even the "cured only by repairing in lab" is questionable.

The text say:

PRD wrote:
A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

It can be easily argued that that is a general method to repair all the simulacrums, regardless of the kind of creature simulated, but that it don's say anywhere that they can't be healed normally.

If a rule give a mean to heal a creature (even constructs are creatures), that don't remove the other means unless there is some piece of text saying that.

Creatures that can't heal by themselves have specific rules in their type entry, like:
"Construct •Cannot heal damage on its own, but often can be repaired via exposure to a certain kind of effect (see the creature's description for details) or through the use of the Craft Construct feat. Constructs can also be healed through spells such as make whole. A construct with the fast healing special quality still benefits from that quality."
"Undead •Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score."

As Simulacrons don't have a type by themselves but acquire one from the creature they are simulating I don't see why they shouldn't be cured by what cure those type of creatures.

As James Jecobs said, it would have been better to create a Simulacron template, that would have reduced a lot of problems.

Liberty's Edge

Dave Justus wrote:

I am pretty sure that a regular golem, whether idle or not would detect as neither alive nor dead.

The description of several golems say that they are animated by an elemental. So they are using the "life force" of an elemental. At that point we have the question "an elemental is alive or not"?

There are descriptions where they are defined as a mass of elemental force with a somewhat temporary mind and no soul, other descriptions seem to imply a form of animating spirit.

It is a GM call and I don't think that all (or even a majority) of the GM see it in the same way.

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