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Quickdraw vs Combat Reflexes and Disarm


Rules Questions

51 to 74 of 74 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Darkin wrote:

another way to look at it, if you insist on the dagger not being in the hand by the time the AoO is taken, is the disarm AoO merely knocks the dagger out of the air. though if this were the case, you would be using the dagger's CMD instead of the throwers CMD, which i am sure is much lower since it has a dex and str of 0 and is tiny

you need the cut from the air feat to do that plus the dagger isn't wielding another dagger to be disarmed from


I wish I could cast fireballs as a free action...(DM, how many free actions do I get a round again? Gwen Smith got to pull 4 weapons, can I get 4 spells =P)


Lady-J wrote:
Darkin wrote:

another way to look at it, if you insist on the dagger not being in the hand by the time the AoO is taken, is the disarm AoO merely knocks the dagger out of the air. though if this were the case, you would be using the dagger's CMD instead of the throwers CMD, which i am sure is much lower since it has a dex and str of 0 and is tiny

you need the cut from the air feat to do that plus the dagger isn't wielding another dagger to be disarmed from

Cut from the Air is for when someone attacks you are someone adjacent to you with a ranged weapon, it has nothing to do with threatening someone who makes ranged attack(s)


Darkin wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Darkin wrote:

another way to look at it, if you insist on the dagger not being in the hand by the time the AoO is taken, is the disarm AoO merely knocks the dagger out of the air. though if this were the case, you would be using the dagger's CMD instead of the throwers CMD, which i am sure is much lower since it has a dex and str of 0 and is tiny

you need the cut from the air feat to do that plus the dagger isn't wielding another dagger to be disarmed from
Cut from the Air is for when someone attacks you are someone adjacent to you with a ranged weapon, it has nothing to do with threatening someone who makes ranged attack(s)

well its the one of the 2 only feats that let you interrupt a ranged attack in the air you can only disarm weapons that are being wielded and weapons that are in the air are not wielded there for you cannot disarm a thrown throwing weapon


Lady-J wrote:
Darkin wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Darkin wrote:

another way to look at it, if you insist on the dagger not being in the hand by the time the AoO is taken, is the disarm AoO merely knocks the dagger out of the air. though if this were the case, you would be using the dagger's CMD instead of the throwers CMD, which i am sure is much lower since it has a dex and str of 0 and is tiny

you need the cut from the air feat to do that plus the dagger isn't wielding another dagger to be disarmed from
Cut from the Air is for when someone attacks you are someone adjacent to you with a ranged weapon, it has nothing to do with threatening someone who makes ranged attack(s)
well its the one of the 2 only feats that let you interrupt a ranged attack in the air

You don't need a feat for that if you are threatening the ranged attacker


Darkin wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Darkin wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Darkin wrote:

another way to look at it, if you insist on the dagger not being in the hand by the time the AoO is taken, is the disarm AoO merely knocks the dagger out of the air. though if this were the case, you would be using the dagger's CMD instead of the throwers CMD, which i am sure is much lower since it has a dex and str of 0 and is tiny

you need the cut from the air feat to do that plus the dagger isn't wielding another dagger to be disarmed from
Cut from the Air is for when someone attacks you are someone adjacent to you with a ranged weapon, it has nothing to do with threatening someone who makes ranged attack(s)
well its the one of the 2 only feats that let you interrupt a ranged attack in the air
You don't need a feat for that if you are threatening the ranged attacker

yes you would because you can only disarm weapons that are wielded by some one once its thrown its not wielded anymore


Long post eaten. Short form follows.

Quote:


Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

if you have knocked the dagger out of his hand he is no longer capable of continueing to throw the dagger.

He may be able to start a new free action - drawing a dagger, but the original act of throwing the dagger is done.

Sovereign Court

Lady-J wrote:
if the dagger doesn't leave his hand then its not a ranged attack yet there for it doesn't trigger the aoo, aoo is only triggered once the dagger leaves the hand but b4 it goes to confirm a miss or a hit on the target

throw

THrō/
verb
1. propel (something) with force through the air by a movement of the arm and hand.

The AOO triggers at the start of the arm and hand movement. The AOO does not wait till the dagger has been thrown (past tense).

If your premise were true, then spellcasting could never be interrupted either. A huge portion of the rules for concentration checks would be irrelevant.


Xellrael wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
if the dagger doesn't leave his hand then its not a ranged attack yet there for it doesn't trigger the aoo, aoo is only triggered once the dagger leaves the hand but b4 it goes to confirm a miss or a hit on the target

throw

THrō/
verb
1. propel (something) with force through the air by a movement of the arm and hand.

The AOO triggers at the start of the arm and hand movement. The AOO does not wait till the dagger has been thrown (past tense).

If your premise were true, then spellcasting could never be interrupted either. A huge portion of the rules for concentration checks would be irrelevant.

spells are a different beast all together as they need to have concentration all the way threw meaning if they lose concentration at any point the spell fizzles so the spell is cast, aoo occurs then if the caster loses concentration the spell fizzles if they don't the spell continues as normal


1. If an AOO disables or kills the target in some way the action does not take place.

2. In the case of a ranged attack there is no penalty to the attack if the ranged user is not killed, disabled etc..

3. Once the ranged attack is launched what happens to the rangex user does not effect the success of the attack.

I see no logical way for the disarm AOO not to take place while the dagger is still in hand if the above 3 statements are true.


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So the issue here is whether or not a character with the quick draw feat can draw a weapon after being disarmed on an Aoo without losing his/ her attack.

I have a few sources here. First, let's see the relevant text about an attack of opportunity.

Quote:

Making an attack of opportunity

An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn)."

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

..This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

So, RAW; an action provokes, Aoo is resolved, THEN the character continues their turn.

Next we read the ready action, relevant to "interrupting" an action, for further information.

Quote:

Readying an action

...The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

So, here it states once again that occurs BEFORE. It also states that the character continues, IF CAPABLE.

Quick draw bestows the capability of a character to draw a weapon as a free action. Here are the relevant rules on free actions.

Quote:

Free Action

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

This clearly states you can take a free action while taking another action. Furthermore, since the attack of opportunity occurs before the action that provokes it, it seems that there is more than enough time to perform a free action, such as to yell, etc, or draw a weapon, if a character has the quick draw feat.

Also, I'd like to point out that the character would be able to complete his/ her attack without provoking another Aoo, since the original act (making a ranged attack), is declared as the given "opportunity", and is being continued/ completed. On iterative attacks, most certainly, but not the attack in question.

Another point of note, magic and spellcasting functions differently, so it cannot be compared in this scenario. If you'd like sources for that, let me know :P

We try to think of combat in D&D in a fluid manner, but in order to preserve game balance, things must occur in a clear order, specifically for situations like this. That's exactly why you can't trip someone who is provoking an Aoo from standing up. If it occurred during; then sure, pull their one leg out and trip em back down. But unfortunately, things occur in order, and the Aoo resolves first, BEFORE the character stands up, but it certainly doesn't mean that he doesn't provoke one because he hasn't stood up yet.

As well, it certainly does say that the DM can place limitations on free actions, so as always, its DM's call, but I feel that the rules clearly allow this. If there is a source that contradicts this (aside from DM limitation), I'd be really interested to see it.

Liberty's Edge

The act of initiating the ranged attack from a threatened square triggers the AoO, Lady-J, not the dagger leaving the attacker's hand. If that were the case, I could easily make the argument that firing a bow isn't REALLY a ranged attack until the arrow leaves the bowstring, the bolt leaves the crossbow, the bullet leaves the pistol. That's clearly neither the RAW or RAI. If you initiate a ranged attack from a threatened area, you provoke an attack of opportunity (unless you have some ability that allows you to avoid the AoO).

Look at it another way: If someone attacks with a thrown weapon, provoking an attack of opportunity, and that AoO deals enough damage to drop the thrower, do you still resolve the thrown weapon attack? If so, a ranged attack isn't REALLY a ranged attack until the projectile/damaging bit(s) leave the weapon being used (be it a bow, gun, crossbow, tentacle, or hand), if someone attacks with a bow from a threatened area, provokes the AoO and takes enough damage to drop, do you continue with the ranged attack roll? If the answer to either of those scenarios is 'no', then the AoO is clearly triggered by initiating the ranged attack rather than the projectile leaving the thrower/firer's control. If your answer to either of those scenarios is 'yes', you're playing PFRPG with an entirely different set of rules.


thesoultorn wrote:

Quick draw bestows the capability of a character to draw a weapon as a free action. Here are the relevant rules on free actions.

Quote:

Free Action

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there

...

You may want to reread Free Actions

PFSRD wrote:
Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.

Says nothing about being able to take free actions in the middle of other actions


Darkin wrote:
thesoultorn wrote:

Quick draw bestows the capability of a character to draw a weapon as a free action. Here are the relevant rules on free actions.

Quote:

Free Action

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there

...

You may want to reread Free Actions

PFSRD wrote:
Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
Says nothing about being able to take free actions in the middle of other actions

It is listed under the combat options overview table, which is in the "actions in combat" section. It is the first description of what a free action is under the combat rules on the pfsrd.


darth_gator wrote:

The act of initiating the ranged attack from a threatened square triggers the AoO, Lady-J, not the dagger leaving the attacker's hand. If that were the case, I could easily make the argument that firing a bow isn't REALLY a ranged attack until the arrow leaves the bowstring, the bolt leaves the crossbow, the bullet leaves the pistol. That's clearly neither the RAW or RAI. If you initiate a ranged attack from a threatened area, you provoke an attack of opportunity (unless you have some ability that allows you to avoid the AoO).

Look at it another way: If someone attacks with a thrown weapon, provoking an attack of opportunity, and that AoO deals enough damage to drop the thrower, do you still resolve the thrown weapon attack? If so, a ranged attack isn't REALLY a ranged attack until the projectile/damaging bit(s) leave the weapon being used (be it a bow, gun, crossbow, tentacle, or hand), if someone attacks with a bow from a threatened area, provokes the AoO and takes enough damage to drop, do you continue with the ranged attack roll? If the answer to either of those scenarios is 'no', then the AoO is clearly triggered by initiating the ranged attack rather than the projectile leaving the thrower/firer's control. If your answer to either of those scenarios is 'yes', you're playing PFRPG with an entirely different set of rules.

if you haven't actually attacked anything then there is no action to provoke an aoo, knocking an arrow to a bow string doesn't provoke, pulling back the string doesn't provoke, its releasing the string that constitutes the attack and provokes the aoo


How you describe your character making a ranged attack while threatened does not matter. Doing so provokes an attack of opportunity, which is resolved before the ranged attack. If the weapon is disarmed, or sundered, then the weapon is no longer available to use.

Back to the real topic at hand...even if you have a weapon in your off hand, that you can swap to your main hand as a free action it would still not be able to be used with the same attack that provoked the attack of opportunity. So it does not even matter how quickly you could draw another. New weapon, new attack action.

As far as just game balance goes, you can either trade attack rolls or trade damage rolls. If you choose to just attack for damage with your attack of opportunity, then they can just roll for damage with the attack provoking it. If you choose to use your attack to disarm, sunder or disable the weapon used in the attack in any other way, their attack roll is wasted, at the cost of yours.

Having more weapons available does not negate that you were just disarmed in the middle of an attack.


As I see it, it comes down to this: To be able to continue with you action after an AoO, you must be able to do so immediately after the action is resolved. If you cannot continue immediately, then the action fails. So in general if you have to take any other steps before you continue with your action, it will be too late.

Therefore, I am pretty sure that if you are disarmed or sundered by an AoO, your attack fails because you cannot continue your attack. Free actions take "a very small amount of time and effort", but even a very small amount of time later is not immediately.

By the time you've quick drawn your second dagger, your first attack has already failed.

_
glass.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1) Yes, AoO can generate paradoxes, it is well know and part of the rules. Wen you use a move action to move you provoke when you leave a square, even the starting square. If an opponent make a AoO and trip or kill/incapacitate you in the starting square, you fall to the ground in that starting square and can't complete your movement. You can't convert it to a crawl or to any other move action.

2) An attack isn't "I make an attack against someone with something". It is "I attack Jack with the dagger I currently have in my right hand".

3) Don't cite PFSRD as the "ultimate source" when someone quote the PRD or the manuals. PFSRD is a great source but it is a secondary source that sometime paraphrase the actual text of the rule or add material from other versions of the game.

4) Yes, the rule text don't repeat all the text of a rule every time it is cited. For space reason usually there is an extensive description and in other locations there is a shortened version. Sometime you must read all the relevant sections and add the pieces together.

PRD wrote:


Attacks of Opportunity

Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work.

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.


Technically, the text I referred to in regards to free actions is not from the CRB. Unfortunately, the CRB does nothing to address the particular issue at hand in my opinion, so I refer to the PFSRD, which has derived that text from 3.5. Much like in law, we must refer to older cases to find clarity on the issue.

As well, there are 4 other food for thought (fun!) arguments that support my analysis. (Disclaimer: Some of these scenarios deliberately do not pertain to this exact issue at hand, to highlight my subsequent argument.)

1) Could a character yell as part of his attack, or yell in response to being disarmed, during the attack in question? Is he silenced when the weapon flies from his hand, until he takes an iterative attack?

2) A character has a dagger in his left hand, longsword in his right, can make an unarmed strike, and has a spiked gauntlet on his right hand. He declares a melee attack, and provokes an Aoo, in which his dagger is subsequently disarmed. Can he place his now empty hand on his longsword and complete the attack, or attack with the longsword or unarmed attack at all? Can he choose to drop his longsword and complete his melee attack with his spiked gauntlet?

3) A character declares that he wishes to move to a particular square then attack, but sees a hole in the ground by making perception check as a free action during his movement. Is it allowable to make a perception check as a free action during movement? Can he choose to move to a different square, or is he locked into his original path of movement?

4) A rogue can stand as free action, and can crawl at half his movement speed. He moves, and is tripped. Can he stand as a free action and continue his movement before taking a standard action? Can he continue his movement to crawl the remainder of his available movement and then take a standard action?

If you answer yes to those questions, or at least some, then I feel that it should be allowable to draw a weapon as a free action before completing an attack. If you answer no to those, then I feel that that severely limits the game environment, and in my opinion does not fit the spirit of the rules, on many levels.

Also, any character can draw a weapon as part of a move action, providing he/ she has a base attack of +1 or higher. It is a clear action that is "with" another action, directly in regards to drawing a weapon. This, to me, further supports my argument, considering this particular character has taken a feat to draw a weapon as a free action.

Perhaps we are lost on the fact that any character can disarm, while quick draw is a feat that must be acquired, just as well as anyone with a reach weapon or otherwise trip an opponent, while rogue talents to stand and crawl must be acquired.

Also bear in mind there are other options for the disarming player in this scenario. He can sunder the belt, he can trip the opponent, disarm the bow if it were, or simply attack for damage on however many attacks the ranged player wishes to foolishly take. All those severely limit the player to the point at which it likely isn't worth it to provoke an Aoo in the first place, in my opinion. So I feel it does not disrupt the game balance. Perhaps it feels unfair to the disarming player in this circumstance, but we certainly shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater :P


thesoultorn wrote:


2) A character has a dagger in his left hand, longsword in his right, can make an unarmed strike, and has a spiked gauntlet on his right hand. He declares a melee attack, and provokes an Aoo, in which his dagger is subsequently disarmed. Can he place his now empty hand on his longsword and complete the attack, or attack with the longsword or unarmed attack at all? Can he choose to drop his longsword and complete his melee attack with his spiked gauntlet?

This one is a non-starter as melee attacks don't provoke an AoO. If the opposing character had a feat that allowed a free action disarm is another story. But to answer the question, no, he declares a melee attack with his dagger, he is disarmed in that attack, that attack is lost. Otherwise, how is it any different from a finesse melee combatant from attacking with his rapier, then when he confirms the hit saying ok, I free action quickdraw my Earthbreaker so my damage is now 2d6.


The fact that you can take other actions simultaneously is irrelevant to the point that you must CONTINUE the attack which was interrupted.

Starting a new action, whether free or not, is irrelevant.

And this isn't a grey area in the rules, thus is about as cut and dried as path finder gets. Thems the rules.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thesoultorn wrote:
Technically, the text I referred to in regards to free actions is not from the CRB. Unfortunately, the CRB does nothing to address the particular issue at hand in my opinion, so I refer to the PFSRD, which has derived that text from 3.5. Much like in law, we must refer to older cases to find clarity on the issue.

Only if you are fully sure that none of the new version rules contrast with the old rule.

thesoultorn wrote:


As well, there are 4 other food for thought (fun!) arguments that support my analysis. (Disclaimer: Some of these scenarios deliberately do not pertain to this exact issue at hand, to highlight my subsequent argument.)

1) Could a character yell as part of his attack, or yell in response to being disarmed, during the attack in question? Is he silenced when the weapon flies from his hand, until he takes an iterative attack?

Irrelevant, as yelling is not part of an attack and don't affectit.

Let's change the question:
"You can yell as part of casting a spell with a verbal component?"
Reply: "Only if you yell the verbal component or the spell say that you yell something as part of the casting. Other stuff can be yelled before or after casting the spell, but not while yelling the spell."

thesoultorn wrote:


2) A character has a dagger in his left hand, longsword in his right, can make an unarmed strike, and has a spiked gauntlet on his right hand. He declares a melee attack, and provokes an Aoo, in which his dagger is subsequently disarmed. Can he place his now empty hand on his longsword and complete the attack, or attack with the longsword or unarmed attack at all? Can he choose to drop his longsword and complete his melee attack with his spiked gauntlet?

No. You declare what you are attacking and with what at the start of the attack. If you are unable to complete that attack, for whatever reason, you lose that attack.

You can't switch your attack midway.

you can't say: "I attack the target at 15' reach with my whip, but I resolve the attack with my bastard sword."

thesoultorn wrote:


3) A character declares that he wishes to move to a particular square then attack, but sees a hole in the ground by making perception check as a free action during his movement. Is it allowable to make a perception check as a free action during movement? Can he choose to move to a different square, or is he locked into his original path of movement?

There aren't "free action perception check" They are either "reactive check" (no action at all, move actions used to make an active perception check or part of another action that include a perception check (again, no actions).

PRD wrote:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.

If you are moving normally you chose your movement 1 square at a time. Some kind of movement "lock" you in a specific path, as example charging or running. You are forced to move in a straight line.

You can stop your movement before moving your full speed if running. If charging I would require some kind of check as the rules assume that you will complete your charge and there are several abilities that work only if you do it.

thesoultorn wrote:


4) A rogue can stand as free action, and can crawl at half his movement speed. He moves, and is tripped. Can he stand as a free action and continue his movement before taking a standard action? Can he continue his movement to crawl the remainder of his available movement and then take a standard action?

Way more complicated question.

A rogue that is able to stand up as a free action could continue his movement. provoking as usual.
A rogue that drop to the ground and start crawling is a different matter. He is using a different kind of movement with a different speed. Generally, to avoid needlessly complications it is considered a different move action. If not, you must decide how the movement already done affect the leftover movement. I would apply a percentage reduction.

To make the opposite example, a spellcaster has a fly spell active. Would you allow it to walk 30' and then fly another 30' to the limit of the fly spell? (I can think of several scenarios where that would be useful.) Or would you limit him to 100% of the speed of the initial movement mode used?

thesoultorn wrote:


If you answer yes to those questions, or at least some, then I feel that it should be allowable to draw a weapon as a free action before completing an attack. If you answer no to those, then I feel that that severely limits the game environment, and in my opinion does not fit the spirit of the rules, on many levels.

This is the Rule forum, so before using the "spirit of the game as I feel it" you should use "the rules as written". Your "feeling" about the "spirit of the game" is a very personal opinion, like mine. Sometime not even the developers agree on what is its spirit.


bhampton wrote:
thesoultorn wrote:


2) A character has a dagger in his left hand, longsword in his right, can make an unarmed strike, and has a spiked gauntlet on his right hand. He declares a melee attack, and provokes an Aoo, in which his dagger is subsequently disarmed. Can he place his now empty hand on his longsword and complete the attack, or attack with the longsword or unarmed attack at all? Can he choose to drop his longsword and complete his melee attack with his spiked gauntlet?

This one is a non-starter as melee attacks don't provoke an AoO. If the opposing character had a feat that allowed a free action disarm is another story. But to answer the question, no, he declares a melee attack with his dagger, he is disarmed in that attack, that attack is lost. Otherwise, how is it any different from a finesse melee combatant from attacking with his rapier, then when he confirms the hit saying ok, I free action quickdraw my Earthbreaker so my damage is now 2d6.

Correct. I meant that the opposing player readies a disarm. Or Broken Wing Gambit perhaps.

Also, the earthbreaker scenario is one that I as a DM would see to be a reasonably disallowed free action under those circumstances.

perfect tommy wrote:
And this isn't a grey area in the rules, thus is about as cut and dried as path finder gets. Thems the rules.

I'd like to hear your rulings on the other scenarios, since this is cut and dry to you. I'm sure it would help to get some clarity on these issues for some people, me included.

Also, side note, I realize in looking through the CRB that my initial quote on free actions (being able to perform them during other actions) was correct. It is under actions in combat. It is quoted word for word as well in 3.5, and on the pfsrd. See my initial post for the relevancy of that.


thesoultorn wrote:

Perhaps we are lost on the fact that any character can disarm, while quick draw is a feat that must be acquired, just as well as anyone with a reach weapon or otherwise trip an opponent, while rogue talents to stand and crawl must be acquired.

Also bear in mind there are other options for the disarming player in this scenario. He can sunder the belt, he can trip the opponent, disarm the bow if it were, or simply attack for damage on however many attacks the ranged player wishes to foolishly take. All those severely limit the player to the point at which it likely isn't worth it to provoke an Aoo in the first place, in my opinion. So I feel it does not disrupt the game balance. Perhaps it feels unfair to the disarming player in this circumstance, but we certainly shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater :P

Its true that any character can disarm, but that in turn would also provoke an AoO from the opponent if the disarmer was not skilled.

I know your talking fairness and spirit, but how is quickdraw, 1 feat equal in spirit to 4 feats (combat expertise[requiring 13 int], combat reflexes, improved disarm, greater disarm) a reach weapon, a close ranged weapon (unarmed strike, armor spikes) and min 14 dex just to have a "CHANCE" to try and stop a person from throwing a dagger that "HAS" to start his/her turn adjacent to them.

There are feats and abilities like point blank master for a reason. If the dagger thrower REALLY wanted to throw in combat he should take it or any of the other class features that prevent AoO in combat.

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