Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game


Pathfinder Society


Starfinder


Starfinder Society

Best Archtype


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

1 to 50 of 53 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

What are your thoughts on the best archtype. The criteria they need to fulfill as much of as possible, except for 1. Which is required.

1. Most or full use of archtype, no 1 or 2 level dips.
2. An archtype that you see more than the base class.
3. The new abilities granted are unique, make sense, and can see play time.
4. New abilities do not replace fundamental core of the class so that it stops being that class.
5. Just flat out more powerful than the base class.
6. Well written and clearly understood intent. Intent matches words.


Razmiran sorcerer
evangelist cleric
urban ragers (urban barb, bloodrager, skald)
arsenal chaplain war priest
scaled fist monk
Sanctified Slayer inquisitor
mutation warrior fighter
archaeologist bard

here's my quick list.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is probably better done on a per class basis.

The one that comes to mind for me is:

Warpriest - Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain, it's pretty much just flatly better than what it gives up.


Pact Wizard.
Exploiter Wizard.
Synthesist Summoner.

The Exchange

Hexcrafter Magus
Spirit Guide Oracle


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Bard - all of them.

Mesmerist - Eyebiter ("so, what do you do- oh my god what the f%*! did you do to your eye!!!")

Rogue - Any that swap out trap finding ("You! Rogue! Look for traps!" "Oh, I'm not THAT kind of Rogue")

Monk: Qinggong monk, It goes with everything!


Here are a few that come to mind

Pact Wizard (Haunted Heroes version)
Pretty much a straight upgrade on the wizard, which is saying something. The archetype only sacrifices bonus feats, and in return gets a slew of benefits that synergize with the wizard to an almost ridiculous extent. It's a blatantly overpowered archetype, and only stands out even more because most Wizard archetypes are complete garbage.

Razmiran Priest (aka False Priest)
This Sorcerer archetype is highly comparable to the Pact Wizard in its levels of brokenness. It basically lets you play as a Mystic Theurge with only very minor sacrifices. It also allows you to bypass the material components costs of many spells, which is what tips this archetype across the boundary between overpowered and straight up broken.

Invulnerable Rager
Basically Barbarian++. The only reason not to take this archetype is if you're taking an archetype that's incompatible with it. It's not broken like the previous two, but it's just one of those "no-brainer" selections that does nothing but upgrade its base class.

Grenadier Alchemist / Beastmorph Alchemist
Highly comparable to the Invulnerable Rager, these archetypes trade out niche class features that are rarely used in favor of more general-purpose ones that will help your build. As a result, it's very easy to slap this one on a build and call it a day. The Winged Marauder gets an honorable mention, but as a goblin-specific archetype it gets relatively little play despite being arguably the best Alchemist archetype that Paizo has ever published (animal companion basically at the cost of a discovery).


Amnesiac Psychic.

Haunt Collector Occultist.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

You know, I was going to go through class by class and pick out a few contenders, but I realized I am a fool and there is only one answer.

Razmiran Priest Sorcerer.

Swaps Eschew materials for the hilariously abusable False Focus. Also gains a massive boost to UMD, one of the best skills in the game. Oh, and it swaps two class skills. Whatever.

Trades a non-swappable 1st and 2nd level bloodline spell for a swappable 2nd and 3rd level spell at the levels you get swaps so you can trade em immediately.

And the meat around which the rest is gravy. At level 9, use divine scrolls without consuming them. Wanna be able to raise dead an entire village without spending a single GP. Can do that. Wanna carry a bag of utility spells and make the batman wizard feel small and puny. You bet. Wanna spam 50 buffs and outperform the fighter. Good news - you are a sorcerer, you actually have the slots for that.

Here is the class by class breakdown, if anyone cares

collapsed for length:
Lets skim through and toss out a contender or two for most classes

Alchemist - Beastmorph: Trade weaksause poison crap for flight, natural attacks and eventually pounce. Kicks ass.
Barbarian - Invulnerable rager, naturally. There isn't any spectacularly great barb archetype though, only minor improvements or sidegrades.
Bard - Nothing: all bard archetypes are sidegrades at best, except for archeologist, which guts the class and turns it into SuperUnchained Rogue
Bloodrager - Primalist is a straight upgrade, and barbarian rage powers are awesome
Cavalier - Since Daring Champion got gutted, nothing stands out.
Cleric - Base class is pretty competitive with all other options. If I had to pick one, it would be herald caller
Druid - A few kinda-options: Menhir savant is minor but almost a straight upgrade. Goliath Druid can be cheesy. Saurian Shaman gets 15ft reach+pounce at level 6. None of them are spectacularly better than base druid though.
Fighter - With Adv Wep training and friends, archetypes are at best competitive with the base class. If I had to pick one, it would be Mutagen Warrior.
Gunslinger - Pistolero/Musket Master. Gunslinger and guns both suck though.
Inquisitor - Ahhhh, we have a problem...Inquisitor has too many kickass archetypes. Infiltrator, Monster Tactician, Preacher, Sacred Huntmaster, Sanctified Slayer, SO MANY CHOICES...
Investigator - Empiricist is almost a straight upgrade
Magus - Hexcrafter is bordering on a straight upgrade, and a damn good one too. Eldritch archer is spectacular if ranged.
Monk - Healing Hand, because it is the only archetype that gives you a permenant way of getting out of playing a monk at level 20. Ok, Ok, Qinggong and Sohei are pretty decent too. For a Monk. Scaled Fist is also neat, but probably not a boost because Wisdom>Charisma on a non-skill-monkey.
Ninja - the Serpent one isn't bad, the other is a minor sidegrade
Oracle - Dual cursed, hands down. Lol@forced reroll spam.
Paladin - Oath of Veangence: say it with me folks, smite smite smite smite...
Rogue - Archaeologist Bard, of course...yeah, I don't have a better answer, some neat narrow rogue archetypes, but nothing amazing.
Skald - Spell warrior, because it doesn't screw your own spellcasters. Otherwise, fated champion is pretty neat too, I guess.
Sorcerer - Razmiran Priest. Oh my god, razmiran priest. At high optimization levels, this is the best archetype in the game. Actually, this is my pick. Finishing the list for completeness sake.
Summoner - Master Summoner:grade A fetta. If Razmiran wasn't around, this would probably be top dog for sheer game warping abusiveness. Synthesist gets an honorable mention for being both weaker than the base class and yet somehow more game warpingly abusive.
Vigilante - Besides picking a spellcasting archetype to jump you up a tier on the spot, nothing is amazing over the base archetype.
Wizard - Bizarrely, the base wizard class is pretty competitive with the best archetypes. It is hard to beat god, I guess.

For the rest of them, nothing stood out as amazing. I could have missed something though - I only skimmed through and I am not amazingly familiar with some of the classes. Oh, and I didn't do the shifter.

Silver Crusade

Anything that could lead to an interesting character concept. Not everything is for the PCs, what might seem like "the worst" might make for a fascinating bad guy, maybe a recurring or even memorable mini-boss.

If you're just looking for broken and easily abused, then Synthesist Summoner is on a constant /ban/ both at any game I run and any game my husband runs, and pretty much any other GM I talk to.


Dαedαlus wrote:
Synthesist Summoner.

In general, that one is worse than the base summoner. It's a big loss of action economy. It's only strong when using point buy, because you can dump all of the physical stats, and even then, it's not that good.


Yeah, it makes a single character than can be better than most martials at doing things. But, you're playing like a martial at that point, instead of playing as a spell caster with a big monster that can destroy things on its own.

Synthesist Summoner is a step down from regular, it's just that it's still better than an unoptimized (and even some optimized) martial character.


Dor


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
Dor

Not familiar with dor


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Dotting....just to read what others say.


Yep. Im familiar with that. Should have made the connection. Brain slow


Sanctified Slayer is a great Inquisitor archetype. Trades barely anything while streamlining the chassis down. IMHO, studied target is vastly superior to judgements, especially on a class with so many other fiddly bits already.


Oh, I forgot this one earlier: the Blood Summoner

Planar Binding as a standard action, and the ability to gain +4 bonuses on your charisma check to secure the service of evil outsiders. It's the most egregious planar binding abuser I've ever seen. The only downside is that you're locked into being evil (the archetype doesn't strictly have an alignment requirement, but good luck staying non-evil when you're collecting blood sacrifices to summon fiends). It's a supremely flavorful choice for an NPC antagonist, but pretty broken in the hands of an evil PC.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My personal list of "favorite archetypes" in each class that aren't just dips?

Spoiler:

Alchemist: Homunculist
Arcanist: Blade Adept
Barbarian: Invulnerable Rager
Bard: Arrowsong Minstrel
Bloodrager: Crossblooded Rager
Brawler: Wildchild (Snakebite Striker for dips)
Cavalier: Disciple of the Pike or Gendarme
Cleric: Separatist or Evangelist
Druid: Leshy Warden?
Fighter: Lore Warden
Gunslinger: Mysterious Stranger or Pistolero
Hunter: Packmaster
Inqusitior: Sanctified Slayer or Living Grimiore
Investigator: Empricist
Kineticist; Kinetic Knight
Magus: Bladebound or Myrmidarch
Medium: Storyteller?
Mesmerist: Eyebiter or Vexing Daredevil
Monk: Master of Many Styles (Iron Mountain isn't bad too)
Unchained Monk: Scaled Fist
Ninja/Rogue: Scout/Thug; I also love Phantom Thief and the new Fey one
Occutlist: Battle Host
Oracle: Dual-Cursed Oracle, Spirit Guide or Pei Zin Practitioner
Paladin: Hospitaler
Psychic: ???
Ranger: Sword-Devil or Trapper
Samurai: Sword Saint
Shaman: ???
Skald: Urban Skald
Slayer: Ankou's Shadow
Sorcerer: Crossblooded
Spiritualist: Phantom Blade
Summoner: Synthesist
Swashbuckler: Inspired Blade
Vigilante: Tesisatsu?
Warpriest: Disenchanter? Mantis Zealot?
Witch: Wyrm Witch? White-Haired Witch? Tatterdemalion? I like gimmicky Witch archetypes!
Wizard: Pact Wizard


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dasrak wrote:
The only downside is that you're locked into being evil (the archetype doesn't strictly have an alignment requirement, but good luck staying non-evil when you're collecting blood sacrifices to summon fiends).

Please. Your rats will live out their year or two of lifespan in peace and comfort in your personal rodent farm, before being swiftly and painlessly slaughtered. As long as you treat your sacrifices humanely, it's going to be a whole lot less evil than any typical means of obtaining meat for consumption, and for a much greater reward. A farm of house centipedes, being mindless, would be even more humane, but would also stretch the boundaries of what technically qualifies as "blood."


Like...best overall?

Occultist arcanist or master summoner summoner.


Razmiran/False Priest is definitely the best purely from a power/versatility upgrade stand point. I have yet to meet a GM who would let me play one despite how cool it can be lore-wise.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Druid: Saurian Shaman
Because if you're making a druid, why would you not make her dinosaur themed?


The Pale King wrote:
Razmiran/False Priest is definitely the best purely from a power/versatility upgrade stand point. I have yet to meet a GM who would let me play one despite how cool it can be lore-wise.

You could try a PFS GM. Snowblind already beat me to it, but in terms of power/versatility Razmiran Priest takes the title of best archetype easily. It's also really flavorful and well-written with abilities leaving no ambiguity as to how incredibly overpowered they are.


Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor has already been said, but it's worth mentioning yet again. Having access to Studied Target all day, every day, is a huge improvement over your limited Judgements.

Invulnerable Rager Barbarian is basically the only way I play Barbarian. Boost my DR/- as high as possible and tank every attack without needing to dodge. The perfect mix of thematic awesomeness and mechanical power. But it's been made all the better with the Beastkin Beserker Archetype. This archetype gives the Barbarian the ability to shift into animals when he rages.

While he does have to deal with a limitation (YMMV on whether this restricts him to specific animals, or to animal kinds/types -- i.e. the ability to choose snake and transform into any snake, from King Cobra to Anaconda), it's still far better at shifting than the Shifter, and another substantial increase to the Barbarian's stats (that stacks with Rage). Thus, it's an increase to both combat efficacy, and out-of-combat utility. With the Invulnerable Rager and Superstition Rage Power covering your defenses, you can wind up with a very solid character.

Last but not least, I have to give it up for the Kensai + Bladebound Magus. Bladebound gives you a free scaling weapon (that can be further enhanced with your Arcane Pool!), and Kensai lets you turn your INT into AC, erasing the need for armor. Focusing on INT gives you a ton of bonuses, but what's not mentioned often is how this helps every other aspect of the Magus, i.e. his spells. Without needing weapons or armor, you can focus heavily on INT, giving you more spells per day (negating the Diminished Spellcasting) as well as giving you increased spell save DCs. Plus you get more arcane pool points!

As an honorary mention, I think the Myrmidarch Magus also deserves a say, especially if you can VMC Fighter. With that VMC, you can get a higher weapon training bonus than an actual fighter, and you can get a number of Fighter Advanced Weapon/Armor Trainings. I particularly like the ones that help shore up your saves (Armed Bravery + Fighter's Reflexes), but I think Warrior Spirit stands out for allowing you to spend basically a full round action picking up a random stick from off the ground, and then boosting that stick into a +10 weapon with any special ability you want in the game. The versatility of choosing ANY special ability is what really makes it worthwhile, even with a standard action activation time.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Scout rogue archetype


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Myrmidarch Magus does trade out more than it gets, so I wouldn't call it the best; however, it is definitely nowhere near being the worst(*), ever since the Weapon Master's Handbook (and to a lesser extent the Armor Master's Handbook) came out(**). I wouldn't recommend combining it with VMC Fighter, though, because even though this technically works, you will probably even more need the actual feats (unless you are doing something really complex with Advanced Weapon Training, or you need every last nickel and dime of one of the scaling options of Advanced Weapon Training -- but keep in mind that this stacking won't come online until level 11).

(*)And even then, Greensting Slayer Magus was definitely worse.

(**)Even if still not the best, Myrmidarch Magus is definitely serviceable.

+1 on choice of Herald Caller Cleric above. Although here's an honorable mention that a lot of people might not expect: Ecclesitheurge, if you want access to a great variety of spells and are willing to spend a feat and some money to scribe Scrolls of them -- doesn't get first place because you have to line up your choices of deity and Domains just right to get it to work.


Just remembered another great archetype: Exploiter Wizard -- this is THE way to do a Universalist Wizard as long as you are NOT going into heavy item crafting or the Arclord of Nex prestige class, or in need of something like Spell Sage for covering divine casting. And speaking of Spell Sage Wizard, not everybody is going to need this, but if you need it(*), you need it bad.

(*)As in: Your party has neither a divine caster nor a Witch.


Yeah, I wouldn't call the Spell Sage the best, but (1) as the man says, when you need it, you need it, and (2) once you're into midlevels it's a pretty solid upgrade from the core wizard. Spell Study makes you the ultimate utility caster, and your overclock power makes you increasing deadly in combat. At high levels, in a fair fight the Spell Sage should kill any other wizard archetype except maybe a capstone Diviner.

Drawbacks: doesn't start to shine until midlevels; super pathetically weak at levels 1-3 and not great at 4-7. Also, at a meta level, the Spell Sage is both hard to play well (because to get maximum benefit, you need an encyclopedic knowledge of what spells are out there) and hard to DM well (a high level Spell Sage can find a utility spell to solve almost any problem you can come up with).

Really, I'm surprised these guys don't get more love.

Doug M.


Venomfist Brawler
Dual-Cursed Oracle
School Savant Arcanist
Occultist Arcanist
Thug Rogue
Scout Rogue


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Yeah, I wouldn't call the Spell Sage the best, but (1) as the man says, when you need it, you need it, and (2) once you're into midlevels it's a pretty solid upgrade from the core wizard. Spell Study makes you the ultimate utility caster, and your overclock power makes you increasing deadly in combat. At high levels, in a fair fight the Spell Sage should kill any other wizard archetype except maybe a capstone Diviner.

Uh, have you seen the (HHH) Pact Wizard’s 10th level ability? Roll twice on initiative, concentration, caster checks, or saves a limited (but not that limited) number of times per day. At 15th you roll twice AND add your Int modifier! And you keep your school (if you didn’t combine with Exploiter). It’s the most obscene think published except maybe Glimpse of the Akashic.

I don’t understand how Spell Sage is dangerous. A CL boost is nice on the weakest form of offensive magic (until you’re capped), but slow spell flexibility (on top the offensively best list) doesn’t add much. You want the PW’s saves to survive, initiative to go first, and LOL SR penetration, and the Exploiters DC boosts.


Xenocrat wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Yeah, I wouldn't call the Spell Sage the best, but (1) as the man says, when you need it, you need it, and (2) once you're into midlevels it's a pretty solid upgrade from the core wizard. Spell Study makes you the ultimate utility caster, and your overclock power makes you increasing deadly in combat. At high levels, in a fair fight the Spell Sage should kill any other wizard archetype except maybe a capstone Diviner.

Uh, have you seen the (HHH) Pact Wizard’s 10th level ability? Roll twice on initiative, concentration, caster checks, or saves a limited (but not that limited) number of times per day. At 15th you roll twice AND add your Int modifier! And you keep your school (if you didn’t combine with Exploiter). It’s the most obscene think published except maybe Glimpse of the Akashic.

I don’t understand how Spell Sage is dangerous. A CL boost is nice on the weakest form of offensive magic (until you’re capped), but slow spell flexibility (on top the offensively best list) doesn’t add much. You want the PW’s saves to survive, initiative to go first, and LOL SR penetration, and the Exploiters DC boosts.

Is there a build/guide to this somewhere?

Sczarni

The Musket Master Gunslinger
Scout Rogues before the Canny Tumble feat got errata-upgraded
Grenadier Alchemist
Empiricist Investigators


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:


Is there a build/guide to this somewhere?

The Pact Wizard kinda speaks for itself. It's one of those archetypes that is so obviously broken that one has to wonder how the author/editors missed it.


Alchemist Beastmorph (replaces some minor alchemist abilities at exchange of empowering mutagens, which is a major class feature of the standard class. And stacks with any other ability or spell, even polymorph effects)

Barbarian Invulnerable Rager (Almost every barbarian I saw was like this. Uncanny dodge is overvalued, having more damage reduction makes for the loss of it anyway)

Bloodrager Primalist (very modular archetype since you get to choose which bloodline powers to replace, and many of the bloodline powers don't compare to two of Rage Powers)

Cleric Divine Strategist (most players I saw dont bother having only one domain, actually they prefer it more than choosing two domains, which are boooooring)

Hunter Packmaster (can do the same as Hunter except gets to have multiple companions. Even if taking one single companion it's stille the same class)

Investigator Empiricist (did saw only two investigators and both players agreed that "it's just an improvement of standard investigator, because Poison are suboptimal/subpar thing in Pathfinder")

Magus Fiend Flayer (it doesnt replace anything and adds more)

Medium Spirit Dancer (it's just the class how it was supposed to be from the beginning)

Monk Qinggong (autoexplanatory, see Unchained Monk, it's an automatic feature for the UnMonk to have access to qinggong powers)

Occultist Silksworn (I post it cause majority of players keeps saying that, but I personally disagree for Panoplies, both Trappings of the Warrior and Mage's Paraphernalia are very good, also psychic casting plus medium armor is wonderful for a gish build, which is a lot of occultists around)

Rogue -any archetype that replaces trapfinding and/or trap sense only (the trapper forced theme for the rogue class is too much niche. And bonuses are low in number and circumstancial)

Shaman Unsworn Shaman (Too strong for the possibilites, it's hard to write and explain it, you have to try it)

Swashbuckler Inspired Blade (if the intention is fighting with rapier, then Inspired Blade is superior to the standard swashbuckler in almost everything. The only real nerf is the panache that recharges only thorugh criticals, which is easy achievable, also is not that easy to deplete the Panache pool)


Xenocrat wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Yeah, I wouldn't call the Spell Sage the best, but (1) as the man says, when you need it, you need it, and (2) once you're into midlevels it's a pretty solid upgrade from the core wizard. Spell Study makes you the ultimate utility caster, and your overclock power makes you increasing deadly in combat. At high levels, in a fair fight the Spell Sage should kill any other wizard archetype except maybe a capstone Diviner.

Uh, have you seen the (HHH) Pact Wizard’s 10th level ability? Roll twice on initiative, concentration, caster checks, or saves a limited (but not that limited) number of times per day. At 15th you roll twice AND add your Int modifier! And you keep your school (if you didn’t combine with Exploiter). It’s the most obscene think published except maybe Glimpse of the Akashic.

I don’t understand how Spell Sage is dangerous. A CL boost is nice on the weakest form of offensive magic (until you’re capped), but slow spell flexibility (on top the offensively best list) doesn’t add much. You want the PW’s saves to survive, initiative to go first, and LOL SR penetration, and the Exploiters DC boosts.

Spell Sage is not a great combat wizard, so if your GM's style is a kick in the door campaign with 6 to 8 combats a day I'd not bother with the archetype. But out of combat, he is the ultimate Schrodinger's Wizard, always having the right spell needed for any occasion. Also check with your GM to see if you can use it to count for item crafting purposes.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I personally want to throw in the Thundercaller bard archetype. Even after the fix (which was really just addressing a sketchy workaround), it's such a cool archetype that really makes the bard feel like a casting-oriented Sonomancer. You do sonic damage (Great) that scales (GREAT) and, more importantly, has a powerful control element (BEST!!!). The cost in bardic performance rounds is pretty negligible, especially in later levels, and the archetype as a whole is the only one that makes me want to play a Charisma-focused Bard with casting/support feats.

It's great not because it's overpowered, or gains more than it loses, but because it does what it does so darn well. You still get to be a great bard, but you have a damage/control option readily available through the class, which frees up your spell choices for more interesting ones, while keeping you out of melee so you can act as a skill monkey/utility guy. It basically carries the entirety of your combat prowess baked in, and stays effective with little feat investment (though Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus Evocation may be worthwhile, because you REALLY want that stun).


Xenocrat wrote:
I don’t understand how Spell Sage is dangerous. A CL boost is nice on the weakest form of offensive magic (until you’re capped), but slow spell flexibility (on top the offensively best list) doesn’t add much. You want the PW’s saves to survive, initiative to go first, and LOL SR penetration, and the Exploiters DC boosts.

As I said, I don't think the Spell Sage is the best -- I just think it's good (very good at high levels) and often underrated. Playing a Spell Sage from first level is an interesting challenge, and great fun for people who like that sort of thing.

I agree with your point about losing a fight with the Pact Wizard. The reroll power is nonsense and OP, and you really have to wonder what the designers were thinking.

Slow spell flexibility: note that in a hypothetical case where both wizards have advance time to prepare, a Spell Sage / Pact Wizard fight gets weird and interesting. The PW has fast spell preparation, rerolls and cheap metamagic on his domains. The SS has time to access every cleric, bard or druid spell, including buffs and utility spells that aren't normally available to wizards. I don't think the outcome in this case is a foregone conclusion.

Doug M.


DM_DM wrote:
I agree with your point about losing a fight with the Pact Wizard. The reroll power is nonsense and OP, and you really have to wonder what whether the designers were thinking.

Fixed that for you. :-p


Dasrak wrote:
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:


Is there a build/guide to this somewhere?
The Pact Wizard kinda speaks for itself. It's one of those archetypes that is so obviously broken that one has to wonder how the author/editors missed it.

And just in case the question was about a build/guide to a Spell Sage Wizard, I haven't seen one, but if you look at the description, you can see that Spell Study lets you (inefficiently) access divine spells to get your party out of a jam, as long as you have time to do the casting. (Note that the example has a mistake in it -- this ability takes 1 round per spell level to use, added to any full rounds already required normally by the spell, but the Cure Light Wounds example says it takes 2 rounds, even though Cure Light Wounds appears first as a 1st level spell and is Standard Action cast.) Normally, you would want to save this for removing some really nasty bad condition that a Wizard normally can't remove (Cure Light Wounds would normally be a bad example, unless you got caught without usable consumables for this and had to do it to stabilize somebody). The Focused Spells ability (which you actually get first) provides good synergy with this in case you need to make a Caster Level Check as part of removing a bad condition -- this gives you a significantly greater chance to succeed than a Cleric of the same level. I would recommend normally saving Focused Spells to use in synergistic conjunction with Spell Study, but at low levels it could be useful on its own for boosting damaging offensive spells (in some cases in conjunction with Intensified Spell) to do things like quickly dispatch a Swarm. Being able to cast a 5d4 Burning Hands at levels 1 - 2 or a 7d4 - 10d4 Intensified Burning Hands at levels levels 3 - 6 is nothing to sneeze at (yes, this ability makes Intensified Spell useful before level 6). The latter use strongly suggests to me that Spell Sage Wizard is not so weak at low levels after all . . . .


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:


And just in case the question was about a build/guide to a Spell Sage Wizard, I haven't seen one

I've written about half of one, posting it in chunks for comment. Here it is. No idea when / if I'll finish it, because the next part -- spells -- is super time intensive. (In the post I write "in a day or two". That turned out to be wildly optimistic.)

Quote:
but if you look at the description, you can see that Spell Study lets you (inefficiently) access divine spells to get your party out of a jam, as long as you have time to do the casting. [...] Normally, you would want to save this for removing some really nasty bad condition that a Wizard normally can't remove (Cure Light Wounds would normally be a bad example, unless you got caught without usable consumables for this and had to do it to stabilize somebody).

Oh, Spell Study can do so much more than that. It gives you early access to a bunch of wizard spells, like Scry. It gives you access to an insane range of buffs and utility spells. It lets you be a better diviner than the specialist Diviner. It makes you into the ultimate McGyver, as long as you have a couple of spell slots left.

And, yes, it means in a pinch you can cure, remove curses, raise the dead, and do all those other traditional clerical back-office services. But that's honestly the least amazing thing about this archetype.

Doug M.


As for the "archetype that you see more than the main class" I'm not sure I've seen an oracle that wasn't double-cursed. Once you realize that some oracle curses are really no big deal at all, it's basically trading class skills for revelations.


45ur4 wrote:

Alchemist Beastmorph (replaces some minor alchemist abilities at exchange of empowering mutagens, which is a major class feature of the standard class. And stacks with any other ability or spell, even polymorph effects)

Barbarian Invulnerable Rager (Almost every barbarian I saw was like this. Uncanny dodge is overvalued, having more damage reduction makes for the loss of it anyway)

Bloodrager Primalist (very modular archetype since you get to choose which bloodline powers to replace, and many of the bloodline powers don't compare to two of Rage Powers)

Cleric Divine Strategist (most players I saw dont bother having only one domain, actually they prefer it more than choosing two domains, which are boooooring)

Hunter Packmaster (can do the same as Hunter except gets to have multiple companions. Even if taking one single companion it's stille the same class)

Investigator Empiricist (did saw only two investigators and both players agreed that "it's just an improvement of standard investigator, because Poison are suboptimal/subpar thing in Pathfinder")

Magus Fiend Flayer (it doesnt replace anything and adds more)

Medium Spirit Dancer (it's just the class how it was supposed to be from the beginning)

Monk Qinggong (autoexplanatory, see Unchained Monk, it's an automatic feature for the UnMonk to have access to qinggong powers)

Occultist Silksworn (I post it cause majority of players keeps saying that, but I personally disagree for Panoplies, both Trappings of the Warrior and Mage's Paraphernalia are very good, also psychic casting plus medium armor is wonderful for a gish build, which is a lot of occultists around)

Rogue -any archetype that replaces trapfinding and/or trap sense only (the trapper forced theme for the rogue class is too much niche. And bonuses are low in number and circumstancial)

Shaman Unsworn Shaman (Too strong for the possibilites, it's hard to write and explain it, you have to try...

Unsworn Shaman >> why? it's not even stronger then the vanilla one.

Barbarian , titan mauler also is a strong one.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Divine paragon cleric is just a better-themed cleric. With some of the deific obediences it's more powerful, some not, but it looks cooler either way.

Sovereign Court

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
avr wrote:
Divine paragon cleric is just a better-themed cleric. With some of the deific obediences it's more powerful, some not, but it looks cooler either way.

I adore this archetype so much. It's not about power so much as that it fixes my problem with the cleric, which is that they all feel virtually identical regardless of deity.


avr wrote:
Divine paragon cleric is just a better-themed cleric. With some of the deific obediences it's more powerful, some not, but it looks cooler either way.

And which deific obediences are considered strong?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
666bender wrote:
Unsworn Shaman >> why? it's not even stronger then the vanilla one.

Minor Spirit vs Spirit class feature::
Minor Spirit lets you choose from Shaman or Witch hexes, while the standard Spirit class feature limits only to shaman hexes (which are inferior in number to teh witch).

By 20th an unsworn gets 6 hexes per day which can be from Shaman list or Witch or choosing from one of her two wandering spirits (which also changes everyday), while a standard shaman will have 8 hexes chosen from the list of her chosen Spirit at 1st level (a standard shaman can have exactly one witch hex, choosing the right hex), while also getting 2 variable hexes chosen each day from wandering spirit chosen or her standard spirit.

There are various witch hexes which are quite useful at low to mid- level (sleep, prehensile hair, peacebond, flight) , meaning that an unsworn gets to use them and later when advancing in level, but the winning point in favor of Unsworn is that it can change her hexes from low levels, adapting to adventure, while a normal Shaman is stick with whatever hexes he has chosen (and to remark, having chosen a single Spirit it can choose from that spirit hexes list only, while an Unsworn of 2nd level can choose an hex from his current wandering spirit, that can change on daily basis).

Wandering Spirits:

Standard shaman have one fixed spirit and one wandering spirit chosen each day, both of which have access to greater and true abilities faster in respect to the Unsworn two wandering spirits. Not too much difference in levels, it's two levels earlier at most. The key of power here is to have more Wandering Spirits, since those can be chosen each day of adventure, meaning the character can adapt more to difficulties. Also, Spirit Magic becomes more useful&stronger the more wandering spirits you have. Guess what? Unsworn shaman has two wandering spirit instead of one of the standard shaman. As a minor bonus, the unsworn shaman's familiar gets a different bonus each day chosen from the selected wandering spirits of the day. A standard shaman's familiar gets the spirit animal bonus of her chosen spirit at 1st level.

Comparation on Spirit Magic:

Spirit Magic for an unsworn is superior having two wandering spirits while a standard shaman having only one. Unsworn gets it at 2nd level though, a shaman at 1st. An unsworn has a wandering spirit right from 2nd level and an extra one at 6th, while a shaman from the 4th. Playing at low levels with soo much variation is fun and reward adaptive playstyle.

Final considerations:

Standard Shaman has wandering spirit and wandering hex to be versatile or to add more power, has more hexes (2 to 4 more), but most of those are restricted to the chosen spirit.
Unsworn shaman have some lag for some class features like Spirit magic (only for the 1st level) and Greater&True Spirit (unsworn stays two levels late), but also gains earlier Wandering Spirit. Also the unsworn gets an expanded list to choose for hexes (witch list and chosen wandering spirits of the day).
In terms of power Shaman and Unsworn are almost the same. In terms of versatility, Unsworn has the edge.


Color me clueless. I'm not entirely sold on Razmiran Priest. A big bonus to UMD is nothing to sneeze at, but the only way you actually behave "priestly" in any fashion is if you have a wand or staff of what you need on hand. I imagine there is at least one 9th level bloodline power that's better than that ability. Getting Aid and Remove Disease is appreciated, but not world shatteringly good.

What am I missing?

Scarab Sages

Zenogu wrote:

Color me clueless. I'm not entirely sold on Razmiran Priest. A big bonus to UMD is nothing to sneeze at, but the only way you actually behave "priestly" in any fashion is if you have a wand or staff of what you need on hand. I imagine there is at least one 9th level bloodline power that's better than that ability. Getting Aid and Remove Disease is appreciated, but not world shatteringly good.

What am I missing?

Like all spellasters, Razmiran Priests benefit from having a diverse selection of spells. You could, for example, use the class as a Resurrector, a scroll of Raise Dead being all you need to rez your allies, with the cost baked into the scroll. It basically lets you get around the material component costs of a TON of spells like that, in addition to having access to both your Sorcerer spells AND any divine scrolls that come into your possession.


Davor wrote:
Zenogu wrote:

Color me clueless. I'm not entirely sold on Razmiran Priest. A big bonus to UMD is nothing to sneeze at, but the only way you actually behave "priestly" in any fashion is if you have a wand or staff of what you need on hand. I imagine there is at least one 9th level bloodline power that's better than that ability. Getting Aid and Remove Disease is appreciated, but not world shatteringly good.

What am I missing?

Like all spellasters, Razmiran Priests benefit from having a diverse selection of spells. You could, for example, use the class as a Resurrector, a scroll of Raise Dead being all you need to rez your allies, with the cost baked into the scroll. It basically lets you get around the material component costs of a TON of spells like that, in addition to having access to both your Sorcerer spells AND any divine scrolls that come into your possession.

Ah, spell-completion items is what I missed. I had it painted in my head with charged items only.

1 to 50 of 53 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / Best Archtype All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.