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Okay, so we all know the Brute archetype for the vigilante sucks, and pretty badly so - every time you get into a stressful situation (including but not limited to starting combat) you need to make a will save or go berserk.
What's the DC for the will save, you ask?
20 + 1/2 you level, duh.
I challenge you to be able to make this save. Bonus point if you can do it from all the way to level 20 and a cookie if you can do it from level 1.
PD
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I deny that it can be done.
Start with a Wisdom of 20, take Iron Will as first feat, take a trait to give you an extra +1: Results in a Will save of +8. This is an excessive investment for someone who isn't a wisdom based caster, but we still don't have even a 50% chance of success at level 1.
Get a Cloak of Resistance +5 at level 6 - which takes you well over WBL - and you have a +15 against a DC of 23. Still not acceptable if it means you might attack your allies one battle in every three.
By level 20 you could have a save of +23 or so (assuming you continue to treat Wisdom as your primary stat) against a DC of 30...
Are we allowed a two level Paladin dip?
Make an alchemist ragechemist instead?
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*pets hedgehog* this little guy is the only reason you all aren't dead right now! *eye twitch*
Mortal peril, not stressful situation, as was pointed out. Which is unfortunate because my first thought was along the lines of peril-sensitive sunglasses - no awareness, no stress, no roll.
Allies can aid another on this roll with skills like diplomacy. Unfortunately most ways of improving aid another don't apply as the will save isn't AC, an attack or a skill check, and you can't usually aid saves so they don't get mentioned by those ways. You can get it up to +5 (helpful halfling with a true love locket) but no further. Good but not enough without a lot of other bonuses.
Still, assuming you can choose to fail a save then calm emotions is autosuccess. You need an ally, cohort, etc. with this spell. With the right setup you can get a cohort with this spell the moment you qualify for the leadership feat, 7th level. Your allies might be able to get it from 3rd level.
Well, combining multiple dips before even starting brute can boost your Will save significantly. Antipaladin's unholy resilience (+Cha on saves) is also helpful, if you get a reasonable Cha score.
When it comes to traits, there is Indomitable Faith for a +1 bonus. A reroll might be more effective, Bound by Honor is a candidate, with a bit of GM support. Iron Will and Improved Iron Will are obvious feats. There are some feats which provide another +1 bonus each (Gray Maiden Initiate, Religious Pilgrim, maybe more). One problem is: The text doesn't specify whether it's a mind-affecting, compulsion, fear or whatever effect, so several character choices don't apply.
I think there is no race with a direct Will save boost, just a few with +2 Wis (and none with +4). General boosts to saves are a thing, so a svirfneblin ends up with a +3 bonus (+1 from increases Wis, +2 from fortunate).
It can be done, probably, but can it be done while still being an effective character?
Probably not.
Half elf 12,10,10,7,20,14
Level 1:
Dual Minded = +2 Will
Indomitable Faith = +1 Will
20 Wis = +5 Will
Iron Will = +2 Will
Level 3:
Improved Iron Will = Reroll Will save
Level 5:
Divine Grace = Once per day +2 Will
Level 7:
Skill focus Know Religion
Level 9:
Eldritch Heritage, Arcane Bloodline, Familiar Hedgehog +2 Will
At level 3 we can get a +1 cloak.
At level 5 we can get a +2 cloak.
At level 6 we can get a +3 cloak.
At level 7 we can get a +3 cloak, a cracked amber spindle, and a cracked pale green prism. +5 (9000 +3400 +4000 = 16400)
At level 8 we can get a +3 cloak, 3 cracked amber spindle, and a cracked pale green prism. +7 (23200)
At level 9 we can get a +3 cloak, 5 cracked amber spindle, and a cracked pale green prism. +9 (30000)
At level 10 we can get a +4 cloak, 5 cracked amber spindle, and a cracked pale green prism. +10 (37000)
At level 11 we can get a +5 cloak, 5 cracked amber spindle, and a cracked pale green prism. +11 (48000)
At level 12 we can get a +5 cloak, 5 cracked amber spindle, a cracked pale green prism, and a stone of good luck. +12 (68000)
At level 13 we can get a +5 cloak, 5 cracked amber spindle, a cracked pale green prism, a stone of good luck. We also add a +3 Guardian Weapon. +16 (100000)
Level 1
Total = +10 vs DC 20
55% chance to make the save
Level 2
Total = +10 vs DC 21
50% chance to make the save
Level 3 (improved Iron Will)
Total = +12 vs DC 21
55% chance to make the first save
55% chance on the second.
69.95% chance to pass one of the two saves
Level 4 (improved Iron Will)
Total = +12 vs DC 22
50% chance to make the first save
50% chance on the second.
75% chance to pass one of the two saves
Level 5 (improved Iron Will + Divine Grace)
Total = +15 vs DC 22
70% chance to make the first save
70% chance on the second.
91% chance to pass one of the two saves
Level 6 (improved Iron Will + Divine Grace)
Total = +17 vs DC 23
75% chance to make the first save
75% chance on the second.
93.75% chance to pass one of the two saves
Level 7 (improved Iron Will + Divine Grace)
Total = +19 vs DC 23
80% chance to make the first save
80% chance on the second.
96% chance to pass one of the two saves
Level 13
Total = +32 vs a dc 26
We have a 5% chance of failure.
At level 20
Total = +34 vs a dc 30
We have a 5% chance of failure.
Can this guy do anything but make saves? Not really.
But he can make all the saves.
EDIT
I could probably drop divine grace and get the hedgehog sooner
Not sure if a once-a-day reroll or +2 is good enough, since you'll need to pass the save about four times a day.
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I know it's the point of this thread but the will save isn't even their only big issue. Being a d8 HD class that suffers -3 to AC is also pretty brutal.
Anyways. As far as level 1 options go: Human with 20 wis, awareness, iron will and indomitable faith can succeed on an 11 and I'm not sure it gets much better than that.
edit: forgot about dual mind halfling. That gets you to 50%, neat.
I think there is no race with a direct Will save boost, just a few with +2 Wis (and none with +4).
Aasimar can technically get one if your GM lets you use the alternate ability list and you roll a 50.
Not sure if a once-a-day reroll or +2 is good enough, since you'll need to pass the save about four times a day.
My worst chance ever is the 50% at level 2 and 4.
It only gets better from there.
This build also ignores the potential +2 to will saves from boosting Wis at level 4,8,12,16. He could also buy a headband earlier to boost his Wis and increase the saves by a +3 at later levels
Anyways. As far as level 1 options go: Human with 20 wis, awareness, iron will and indomitable faith can succeed on a 12 and I'm not sure it gets much better than that.
I can succeed on a 10 at level 1
Anyways. As far as level 1 options go: Human with 20 wis, awareness, iron will and indomitable faith can succeed on a 12 and I'm not sure it gets much better than that.I can succeed on a 10 at level 1
Yeah, I forgot about dual mind (also my math was wrong the human succeeds on an 11).
My worst chance ever is the 50% at level 2 and 4.
So at level 4 he'll only attack his allies twice a day?
My worst chance ever is the 50% at level 2 and 4.So at level 4 he'll only attack his allies twice a day?
That is a base 50%.
He can also reroll one of them.So it is more like 1 and a quarter times.
Yes it isn't great. But if this guy is posing a valid threat to the party at level 4 the party has bigger problems than the Brute.
There might be other ways to boost his Wis by level 4 that I can't think of, but it is quite hard.
Hmm.
A character with immunity to fatigue or exhaustion cannot adopt a brute form at all; that immunity prevents the transformation as an effect that would cause fatigue or exhaustion.
Maybe you could just take the Mark of the Devoted feat, die, turn undead, and avoid the whole brute form, as you'd be incapable of turning into it? Sure, you'd just be a worse vigilante, but... I'd argue that's still an improvement over the Brute.
...stuffs...
Gratz, you get a point AND a cookie. Consider yourself lucky.
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...stuffs...Gratz, you get a point AND a cookie. Consider yourself lucky.
I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not :P.
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Have a mesmerist in the party who implants the Gift of Will trick.
Trigger phrase: "Sun's gettin real low..."
Or possibly 15, yeah. I mean, at first level with an average Wisdom, you're failing it 95% of the time and going berserk and killing all your friends. That does seem a bit harsh.
It should be noted that everyone can hold an aid another action to Diplomacize the brute vigilante down. So as you're nearing the last bad guy, there's a decent chance of adding at least +2 and as much as +6 (for a 4-person party) to the save.
But still, if you bring a Brute Vigilante to the table without group consensus, you're asking for my furniture-hating alter ego to show up. And he can't be talked down...
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Hey, look on the bright side: by investing all of your resources into trying to succeed at that will save, you compromise your battle prowess to the point it doesn't even matter if you attack your friends! Upsides, am I right?
Hey, look on the bright side: by investing all of your resources into trying to succeed at that will save, you compromise your battle prowess to the point it doesn't even matter if you attack your friends! Upsides, am I right?
I like your optimism, friend!
I take it on these you're meaning 5% change on the first roll, so almost 100% pass chance? 95+(5*0.95)= 99.75% chance to pass if IIW's re-roll is used.Level 13
Total = +32 vs a dc 26
We have a 5% chance of failure.At level 20
Total = +34 vs a dc 30
We have a 5% chance of failure.
That is correct.
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Guys, guys. I got this.
You dump your will save into the ocean. Wisdom penalty race if you can. Low wisdom. No Iron Will. Skip the cloak, get feats to fix Fort/Ref instead. Travel with anyone who can cast Sleep or Color Spray or such. Bam, when you inevitably turn on the party, you can easily get dropped by a first level spell.
Alternatively, have a fighter with a Sap in the party. He should have absoloutly no problem putting you on your butt.
To keep it all in your own character abilities - get a familiar any way you can. Eldritch heritage, the familiar bond line, VMC, whatever, so long as you can get an effective level of 7 for it. Be within one step of true neutral alignment. Take the improved familiar feat and select a paracletus aeon.
Any time you need to come down from your frenzied rage, have your familiar use calm emotions on you and choose to fail the save. It's more than smart enough to know when combat has ended etc.
This has the advantage of not leaving you flat on your back in the event that enemy reinforcements arrive just after the fight ended.
You could put all your skill points into Bluff and Diplomacy so you can apologise sincerely to your party for attacking them and convince them it probably won't happen again?
Assuming someone in the party is a spellcaster,
Rich Parents trait lets you start with a lot of scrolls off obscuring mist and silent image. After every fight, have the party mage cast obscuring mist (so there are no allies in sight) then if you fail the save, have them send in a silent image of a wraith/shadow/etc for you to fight. Then have it "die" and disappear into the fog and reappear until you make a save (and can say you are fine).
Later levels, invest in wands of these spells. Maybe even bags of tricks once your will save gets so high the DC 11 silent image doesn't hold up. Wands of summon monster would be great, but they take too long to use. Eventually get a familiar to do this stuff so the party doesn't have to.
Alternatively, carry around a loadstone as a slow race so that your party can easily outpace you, and get a familiar to lob tanglefoot bags so your enemies don't run circles around you (until higher levels)