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Water Dancer Monk, double Charisma bonus to AC?


Rules Questions


So, kind of an odd question. Water Dancer Monks from Ultimate Wilderness get this ability:

Nereid's Grace:
Nereid’s Grace (Su): When unarmored and unencumbered, a water dancer adds 1 point of Charisma bonus per monk level to his Armor Class as a dodge bonus. If he is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus. He uses his Charisma score instead of his Wisdom score to determine the size of his ki pool and the DC and effects of monk class features. This replaces the bonus feat the monk normally gains at 1st level.

The odd thing is that neither this ability nor any other the Water Dancer gets replaces AC Bonus. Nereid's Grace makes it so you use your Charisma instead of your Wisdom to determine the effects of Monk class features, like AC Bonus. Nereid's Grace's bonus to AC is a dodge bonus while AC Bonus is a direct addition to AC. Here's the relevant FAQ about ability score stacking:

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?:

No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.


already a forum on this lower down on the page but that faq is only talking about untyped bonuses


HibikiSatsuo: What you might have missed from the answer to the FAQ you posted. "However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier”".

Nereid's Grace: "as a dodge bonus"

Liberty's Edge

Yup, as written, Water Dancers of high enough level add double their Cha to AC.


I am pretty sure it defies the intent of the rules, but in this case it seems to work


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't think the intent is to prevent bonuses of different types from stacking if they key off the same attribute. You're still protected by "bonuses of the same type don't stack*" and "there aren't more ways to add charisma to AC than you bother to print" and "you lose dodge bonuses when you're flat footed."

Specifically "You add your charisma modifier", "you add a dodge bonus equal to your charisma modifier", "you add a morale bonus equal to your charisma modifier", "you add a sacred bonus equal to your charisma modifier", and "you add a dodge bonus equal to your charisma modifier" should all stack.

*except for dodge bonuses.


It has been long confirmed that you can stack different types of bonuses off of the same stat.

Example:

Unchained Monk (Scaled Fist)

"Draconic Might : Any of the scaled fist’s class abilities that make calculations based on her Wisdom (including bonus feats with DCs or uses per day, such as Stunning Fist, but not Wisdom-based skills or Will saving throws) are instead based on her Charisma."

"When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level."

So in this case he adds his Wisdom Bonus to his AC and CMD.

-----

This Monk could NOT take a level of Oracle (Lore or Nature) to add:

"Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity."

Why? Because the monk bonus is an untyped bonus to AC, as is the Sidestep Secret, meaning that you can't Add Charisma + Charisma to AC.

-----

This is the same story with nature:

"Nature's Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class."

Again, cannot do this, because it is an utyped bonus.

-----

They COULD, however add Smite Evil from Paladin:

"In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect."

They can add this because it is a Deflection Bonus.

-----

They could then further use Arshae's second boon:

"Flawless Form (Su) Gain an armor bonus equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum +1) whenever you wear revealing clothing and no armor."

As this is an "Armor Bonus" and not just an AC bonus.

-----

If he had some way to gain a "Sacred Bonus" to AC he could also stack that.

And there is also a "Dodge Bonus"

So there are 8 types of bonuses:

Untyped AC Bonus
Armor Bonus
Deflection Bonus
Dodge Bonus
Sacred Bonus
Morale Bonus?
Luck Bonus?
Enhancement Bonus?

In theory, if you could get an Untyped, Armor, Deflection, Dodge, Moral, Luck, and Enhancement Bonus all using Charisma you could, in theory, stack Charisma up to 8 times.

I don't think there is a way to do that, but there ya go.


for flawless form what constitutes revealing clothing and would they have to actually wear cloths to gain the benefit?


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Lady-J wrote:
for flawless form what constitutes revealing clothing and would they have to actually wear cloths to gain the benefit?

I suspect just about anything except cold weather clothing could be made revealing if you have a pair of scissors, some thread and a needle handy. RAW being absolutely nude won't get you Arshae's boon.


Lady-J wrote:
for flawless form what constitutes revealing clothing and would they have to actually wear cloths to gain the benefit?

Any clothing modified to be revealing.

Since it says revealing clothing, it needs to be revealing and clothing. So you can't go nude, as that means no clothing to be revealing.

I've been messing with the Arshea build for a while, trying to get a combination that I really like that maximizes defenses. Not like in a min-max way, just something very defensive.

So far I have come up with:
Un. Monk (Scaled Fist) 1
Paladin (any that has grace) 2

Celestial Obedience and 16 HD - or - Anything that can class into Mystery Cultist successfully.

Alternatively you could go:
Paladin 2
Un. Monk (Water Dancer) X

But if you are going the Mystery Cultist route you really want a Spellcaster Class.


what if your only cloths were the big 6 items would that count as revealing?


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Lady-J wrote:
what if your only cloths were the big 6 items would that count as revealing?

Nope. None of those count as clothing I'd assume.

Maybe the cloak of resistance.

Just get a dancer's outfit.


HWalsh wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
what if your only cloths were the big 6 items would that count as revealing?

Nope. None of those count as clothing I'd assume.

Maybe the cloak of resistance.

Just get a dancer's outfit.

that would look a little funny imo what about purple hulk shorts

edit just saw the obedience and rip robot and skeleton npc idea

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Several interesting points (some in the duplicate thread):

1) Herolab gives water dancer Wis to AC and cha as dodge to AC, either an oversight in coding or they got communication from Paizo on how to code.

2) Scaled Fist might stack with Water Dancer to force Cha in AC bonus, but maybe Water Dancer might modify some of the same things?

3) There is a FAQ suggesting that two dodge bonuses from the same source may not stack. The FAQ on double ability to something considers the ability a source. Which suggests the intent is to not allow stacking two Chaisma “as a dodge bonus” if you take levels in Devoted Muse to get that ability twice.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You definitely cannot stack Water Dancer with Scaled Fist, as Water Dancer replaces the Monk bonus feats and Scaled Fist alters them (by adding more options).

Anything about two dodge bonuses from the same source would not apply here, as what we have are separate dodge and untyped bonuses equal to Charisma modifier.

Apparently the dispute for the Herolab implementation is whether the untyped Wisdom to AC bonus that a standard monk receives should be changed to Charisma per the archetype rule "He uses his Charisma score instead of his Wisdom score to determine the size of his ki pool and the DC and effects of monk class features." If AC is not included, then we probably need a FAQ enumerating just what that substitution does and does not cover.


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Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ciaran Barnes wrote:
I am pretty sure it defies the intent of the rules, but in this case it seems to work

I thought so at first, but I think it’s intentional. The second copy of Cha to AC is careful to be a specific type, Scales with level to prevent broken dips, and replaces the bonus feat. The archetype trades out a lot of offensive power, and gets to be very defensive in return.

I’m not seeing how “effects of Monk class features” doesn’t include the AC bonus, though.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

David knott 242 wrote:
Anything about two dodge bonuses from the same source would not apply here

Notice I said Devoted Muse?

Quote:
a devoted muse adds 1 point of her Charisma bonus (if any) per class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class.


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Yeah, we could get some clarification about whether a Water Dancer who is a Devoted Muse using Osyluth's Guile gets three dodge bonuses equal to their charisma, two somehow, or just one.

Personally, I'm fine with players stacking as many dodge bonuses as they can get as high as they can get them, since you still lose dodge bonuses when you're flat footed or otherwise denied dex to AC. Fundamentally "you have a really high dodge bonus, so intelligent enemies attempt to feint" is not really different from "you have a really high armor bonus, so intelligent enemies use touch attacks. The player has a really effective defense that is situationally inapplicable seems like an okay thing to tolerate.

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