Shifter guide?


Advice

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Scarab Sages

Thanks for the guide, Rosc, it's a good read. :)


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dysartes wrote:
Rosc wrote:
Feats are obnoxious. The fun Wild Shape feats either require druid levels or unreasonable points into of Wisdom. I'm struggling not to fall back on filler feats like Improved Initiative, Dodge, and Weapon Focus.

Rosc, why are Druid level pre-requisites an issue? The Shifter's Wild Shape ability calls out that Shifter levels count as Druid levels for feat pre-req purposes (though the verbiage is in the middle of a paragraph, so is easy to miss).

Doesn't help with WIS requirements, mind you ;)

Well you see, there's a perfectly reasonable reason for this and it's because I am bad at reading. Thank you for pointing that out, I'll update the guide later tonight.

graystone wrote:
Rosc wrote:
For what it's worth, I think it's possible to build a competent shifter under these circumstances.
Can you make a competent oozemorph under those circumstances?

When I'm sure it's allowed in public play, I'll give it my all. But for what its worth, I think they're pretty decent once you can shapeshift for 8 hours a day, and beast shape 1 and 2 mean you can out shapeshift the base class.


graystone wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Can the elementalist wear metal armor?

Nope, though that's not a big concern as non-metal armors are in every category. 2 non-metal heavy, 3 medium and and 16 light options. Special materials add 3 more heavy and 1 medium. So that's 5 heavy, 4 medium and 16 light options of non-specific armors to use. That and every shield except the dwarven war shield...

IMO that's not really a limitation.

Is it a major mechanical limitation? Not majorly. Is it a hole in suspension of disbelief since it implies a CN god of brute warfare is the only being even trying to allow nature magic to work with most chemical elements? Yes.


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Rosc wrote:

Oh look, a Shifter guide. Note that it isn't fully optimized, nor is it meant to be a full extensive look at the class. Mostly a broad guide for people who are on the fence as to what class to play.

Catharsis wrote:
Rosc, you might also want to consider multiclassing options, since scaling seems to be the Shifter's main problem. For instance, would a shape with several primary natural attacks make a good platform for a Rogue?
I'd consider it, but the rules of the megaguide that I'm writing for prohibit multiclassing. The guides also require Humans for the example builds to show off the classes without needing oddball racial abilites. For what it's worth, I think it's possible to build a competent shifter under these circumstances.

I appreciate the effort and time you put into this.

Still cant imagine many reasons I would play this class....but that has nothing to do with you.

Nice try.


The Sideromancer wrote:
Is it a hole in suspension of disbelief since it implies a CN god of brute warfare is the only being even trying to allow nature magic to work with most chemical elements? Yes.

You're going to have to explain what you're alluding to as I'm lost with the reference. From my perspective, I don't see an issue. For me it makes more sense that they have to use elementally pure armor as opposed to chemically altered metals [smelting] than a normal druid. [better for channeling elemental powers]

For me it makes better sense than arcane spell failure from something like a breastplate that doesn't hinder your arms at all.

EDIT: are you talking about Gorum? "They cannot cast spells while wearing metal armor, nor does it meld with them when they use wild shape" so it's still actively does NOT "allow nature magic to work with most chemical elements". In fact, you have to remove your metal armor to wildshape as it doesn't meld. In essence, about the ONLY thing they get that other druids don't is the ability to ignore the inability to cast druid spells, supernatural or spell-like class abilities for 24 hours after wearing armor. That and you can use A Thousand Faces ability in metal armor. It's not a lot.

Shadow Lodge

But it's more any other deity is even willing to try. I think his point is just how WEIRD it is that Gorum is the one doing it.


I named myself 'master of iron' for a reason:
For starters, metals are more elementally pure than, say, wood. Chemically speaking, wood is a hot mess of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, phosphorus, sulphur, and a few other things, as distinct from the possibility of 99.9% copper. Magically speaking, metal is if nothing else a close offshoot of Earth (no such easy comparison exists for wood), making it as "elementally pure" as Ice. In the Wu Xing style, Wood is its own element, but metal is as well, putting them on equal footing.

Secondly, metal is important for nature. I've often joked about "what colour does a fairy bleed" since that pigmentation comes from metal ions. Why are they there? Because life needs something done that only metals can do well. It's iron and nickel that give the planet a shield from solar wind, and it's iron that allows anything heavier than lithium to be distributed to the universe at large. Heck, even hydrogen, the most common element around, acts like a metal most of the time: you see positive ions a lot more than negative ions.

Thirdly, relying on smelting is a weak point. Druids can't wear any metal armour, including metals like gold that don't require smelting (it's inert enough to be found as-is). In terms of environmental impact, leather tanning is pretty terrible, so the comparison doesn't really hold up there either.

I mention Gorum as the only guy that's even trying, it doesn't mean he's succeeding at magical research. The fact that this hasn't been solved by a coalition of Brigh, Nethys, and some less-biased nature deities is part of the issue. As a consolation, there's some pretty stinky cheese here, though it still requires cutting out casting. Technically, it doesn't merge but it doesn't unequip either. As such, you have a free Wild enchant on all metal armour. Alternatively, play a Goliath Druid archetype, then the armour not merging isn't a problem because it never needed to merge in the first place.

Shadow Lodge

Armor on a human won't fit when that human turns into a horse. That's why you need to take it off and put barding on. You do not get a free +3(that is only worth +2 now) armor ability.


The Sideromancer: You're looking at metal/wood in a modern light and not a fantasy way. So wood is pure as nothing was added to it by man.

On second point, ions aren't really part of the 'fantasy' side that druid powers come from.

3rd: gold IS smelted. It doesn't exist in 100% pure forms as it has minerals and other impurities. Also pure gold [24-kt] is too soft to even make jewelry with, let alone armor. 22-kt, the highest gold content used for jewelry, is 22K gold [91.67 % gold and 8.33 % silver, zinc, nickel and other alloys]. It's the same reason silver is usually sterling silver [92.5% silver and 7.5 % copper]. It's SUPER rare for a pure metal to be used as/is as they don't have the right properties for use that way.

4th: it's not so much that 'he's trying' as it is iron is his thing. He gives a SUPER MINOR boon: you can use A Thousand Faces in metal armor and don't have to wait 24 hours before you use your other powers after armor use...

Scarab Sages

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So Gorum started a fight? I think his motive is clear.


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Rosc wrote:
dysartes wrote:
Rosc wrote:
Feats are obnoxious. The fun Wild Shape feats either require druid levels or unreasonable points into of Wisdom. I'm struggling not to fall back on filler feats like Improved Initiative, Dodge, and Weapon Focus.

Rosc, why are Druid level pre-requisites an issue? The Shifter's Wild Shape ability calls out that Shifter levels count as Druid levels for feat pre-req purposes (though the verbiage is in the middle of a paragraph, so is easy to miss).

Doesn't help with WIS requirements, mind you ;)

Well you see, there's a perfectly reasonable reason for this and it's because I am bad at reading. Thank you for pointing that out, I'll update the guide later tonight.

One thing to note about these feats is while you'll qualify for some, not all of them will do anything for you. Anything that increases your druid level wont help the shifter since they aren't a druid nor count as one for feat effects.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Rosc wrote:
Oh look, a Shifter guide. Note that it isn't fully optimized, nor is it meant to be a full extensive look at the class. Mostly a broad guide for people who are on the fence as to what class to play..

Rosc... This is NICE! Thank you!

Hmm


Chess Pwn wrote:
One thing to note about these feats is while you'll qualify for some, not all of them will do anything for you. Anything that increases your druid level wont help the shifter since they aren't a druid nor count as one for feat effects.

Fair, Chess Pwn - I haven't looked at the Wild Shape feats specifically, I just see people saying that they can't be taken due to the dr00d level pre-req, and have a strange compulsion to point out this error ;)


graystone wrote:
[...]

And leather armour and stoneplate? How are those untouched by man?

Do you have a substitute theory of matter in PF? Is it sufficiently associated to both low-element magic systems (such as the one Druids get the domains for) and reality to exclude metal? I would like the details of it so I can explore the consequences.

Most furs also aren't found with the right properties and require industrial processes to offer effective protection, but even that's moot since Druids can't even wear hugely impractical native gold armour. (related, are any exotic metals found natively?)

Iron is Gorum's thing, Bronze is Brigh's, Unfettered flow of magic is Nethy's, real nature (not this vertebrate and plant-only ******** the Eldest are pushing) should be a lot of deities' thing, but nobody steps up.


The Sideromancer wrote:
And leather armour and stoneplate? How are those untouched by man?

I don't recall saying untouched. The leather/stone on in a recognizable from it's natural state unlike comparing metal to its ore. We're into apples and oranges territory here. And JUST to be clear, there are 100% natural ways to tan leather and can happen without any human activity involved...

The Sideromancer wrote:
Do you have a substitute theory of matter in PF?

You missed the point. Magic and deities don't CARE about theories on matter... It just makes the rules ON MAGIC. Another apples and orange argument. You don't have to explain ions anymore than you have to explain the equation for matter to energy when you teleport or conservation of mass when you polymorph other.

If YOU can explain why square–cube law doesn't apply to pathfinder, you'll have your answer why ions are meaningless.

The Sideromancer wrote:
Most furs also aren't found with the right properties and require industrial processes to offer effective protection

They need processing but not industrial. For instance, a simple bog has all you need to produce leather. You can also use 100% natural materials such as eggs, brains and smoking. It's NOTHING like metal manufacturing...

The Sideromancer wrote:
but even that's moot since Druids can't even wear hugely impractical native gold armour. (related, are any exotic metals found natively?)

You skipped over the fact that pure metal just isn't ever found. So there is NO "native gold" as even Noble Metals require smelting to remove impurities/minerals then you have to process the gold into an unnatural combination to have to be strong/hard enough JUST to work it into armor. Simple rings aren't even made out of pure gold as it's too soft to keep its shape.

The Sideromancer wrote:
Iron is Gorum's thing, Bronze is Brigh's, Unfettered flow of magic is Nethy's, real nature (not this vertebrate and plant-only ******** the Eldest are pushing) should be a lot of deities' thing, but nobody steps up.

I assume they saw what Gorum did and said to themselves "WOW, that was unimpressive. Let's not try that..." The ability of Gorum doesn't allow wildshaping, doesn't allow spells and ONLY and I repeat ONLY allows A Thousand Faces to work in metal armor... That's not an impressive result.

SO in conclusion it makes perfect sense, IMO, that no deity is trying to reproduce Gorum's schtick as it's so mediocre that there is no reason to disturb the status quo. That and trying to explain magic with science is pure folly.


graystone wrote:
If YOU can explain why square–cube law doesn't apply to pathfinder, you'll have your answer why ions are meaningless.

Cause giants are cool. :)

And genre appropriate.


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thejeff wrote:
graystone wrote:
If YOU can explain why square–cube law doesn't apply to pathfinder, you'll have your answer why ions are meaningless.

Cause giants are cool. :)

And genre appropriate.

I agree! And that a perfect reason to throw away ANY attempt to examine the setting scientifically: Talking about ions isn't "cool". ;)

PS: Myself, I think kaiju! Nothing says epic fight like a Colossal three-tailed scorpion that can fire heat beams!


graystone wrote:
I don't recall saying untouched.
graystone wrote:
So wood is pure as nothing was added to it by man.

I bring up native elements and alloys not because they are practical (though brass, bronze, and pewter stretch this), but because they exist and are subject to the restrictions.

You can make PF armour out of gold:
AoN, gold wrote:
Gold can be fashioned into light or medium metal armor. The softness and the weight of the metal decrease the armor/ shield bonus by 2, and increase the armor check penalty by 2. Gold armor has hardness 5 and the fragile quality. Magically strengthened gold is the equivalent of steel and can be made into any armor or weapon that can be made of steel.

, and the metal is common enough in its native state for methods that only search for native gold (e.g. panning) are practical. Worked gold looks and acts like unworked gold because its the same material, where even stoneplate is expressly modified:

AoN, stoneplate wrote:
This armor is crafted by dwarven stonesmiths from alchemically strengthened plates of basalt.
graystone wrote:
And JUST to be clear, there are 100% natural ways to tan leather and can happen without any human activity involved...

Can I get a citation on this? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I find "it's magic, it needs no explanation" to be insufficient. I am okay with fantasy having different rules than reality, but all magical systems of matter I know of (including that of PF) place metal equal to or greater than wood in purity. Thus, it's not only an error in real science, it's also an error in magical science.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rosc wrote:

Oh look, a Shifter guide. Note that it isn't fully optimized, nor is it meant to be a full extensive look at the class. Mostly a broad guide for people who are on the fence as to what class to play.

Catharsis wrote:
Rosc, you might also want to consider multiclassing options, since scaling seems to be the Shifter's main problem. For instance, would a shape with several primary natural attacks make a good platform for a Rogue?
I'd consider it, but the rules of the megaguide that I'm writing for prohibit multiclassing. The guides also require Humans for the example builds to show off the classes without needing oddball racial abilites. For what it's worth, I think it's possible to build a competent shifter under these circumstances.

Nice introduction to the class! Should help anyone who is coming in looking to play one and needing some examples.

Could you please move Druid’s Vestment before the Beastial Rags in the magic items section? It generally makes more sense listing the items in the order you would look to gain them.

For the Beastly Bully build I’m not sure why your wolf buddy took light armor proficiency. You can get the ACP to zero without too much problems on the light armor. I thought it only made sense to get it when using it as a prerequisite to medium armor proficiency.

Although all your example builds need to be human, you might consider listing one or two other races that have good synergy with a particular build. Since so many other races have natural attacks available, a general paragraph about how well that works when going shifter would also be nice.


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Derail now over here.


Rosc wrote:
Oh look, a Shifter guide. Note that it isn't fully optimized, nor is it meant to be a full extensive look at the class. Mostly a broad guide for people who are on the fence as to what class to play.

Thank you, it was a good read.

When it comes to the Wis 19 requirement of several UW wildshape feats: To some extent they might be intended for druids. But given a shifter can get a 'free' enhancement bonus to one or multiple physical stats, it might be worth it to replace the usual ability score belt by a Wis headband on the long run. Not only for skills and save boost, but also for AC. Given a +6 headband is quite expensive, I see two options:

1) Start with Wis 15 and pick up a +4 headband at level 11, that's ~20% WBL then. This allows you to instantly pick some wildshape feat.
2) Start with Wis 14, increment at level 12 and pick up the +4 headband also at level 12 (~15% WBL). The wildshape feat has to wait till level 13, but this way costs you less on the road.

It becomes easier with a race that offers a +2 to Wis. Dwarves come to my mind, their -2 Cha should be fine with a shifter. Even if the flavor of a dwarf in the wilderness is odd...

There are some other feats which require such a high Wis score. Mindfulness Mastery gives you another save after a failed roll vs. mind-affecting, Perfect Awareness allows you to take 20 on Perception 1/day and Wolf Savage is not bad (despite the change).


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@Bretl: Thanks! I hope this will help uninformed players when the class rolls out for PFS.

When it comes to the Vestment placement, I was mostly trying to stick to the original version of Secret Wizard's template and list them in alphabetical order. Hopefully the callout in the second item's entry will work? If more people express a dislike, I may make an exception.

For the wolf taking Light Armor Proficiency, I didn't want to assume every new player wanted to game the ACP system or pay the (now inflated) prices for mithril armor. I will acknowledge that this does run in contrast to some of my previous class guides, where some builds straight up recommended using Armor Expert to wear a mithril breastplate for free, but in my defense using a trick like that for an animal companion that was added as an afterthought feels a bit more like needless minutia. I might change it later.

As for alternate race callouts, maybe? I've only done that once for the Swashbuckler, where its Mouser archetype is almost useless on a medium human for most of the early and mid game.

Bluh, phone posting on break is awkward. More tonight.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The call-out certainly helped, and I'm sure lots of people like it alphabetical. When looking for something it is nicer. I was just finding myself mentally reorganizing the item list as I read through it.

Mithral is expensive, but Masterwork Studded Leather is affordable, has 0 ACP and only one less AC. That is core rule book. Ultimate Combat or Ultimate Equipment allows for MW leather lamellar armor, which has the same AC as chain shirt.

I do think you need to call out getting the companion armor, but no need to give them advice that causes them to use one of the precious critter feats.

I don't know what sort of synergies might exist between the races and the builds. How about if I ask some questions that would probably tell what to (or not to) look for in alternate races:

  • Does Darkvision help?
  • What if a race already has (or can get) Natural Attacks? Toothy half-orcs and clawed Tengu as an example.
  • Would Tigermorph as Elf work, allowing Elven Branched Spear?
  • What happens with SLAs and the shifter?


  • I'd also like to know whether or not Skinwalkers gain much use out of going Shifter, since multiple polymorph effects don't really stack.


    BretI wrote:
  • Does Darkvision help?
  • What if a race already has (or can get) Natural Attacks? Toothy half-orcs and clawed Tengu as an example.
  • Would Tigermorph as Elf work, allowing Elven Branched Spear?
  • What happens with SLAs and the shifter?
  • Darkvision is great for everyone, but far less useful for a shape shifting class. Then again, full BAB works better for weapon users so I'm giving this one a hard maybe.

    Stacking natural attacks with race choices is the basis of a Shifter build that I came up with before any of the ones in this guide, but attacks added with races or items don't scale with your claw stuff.
    When it comes to the Elf Spear Tigermorph, the answer is a yes with an asterisk. It works so long as you trade out the grapple chain for weapon proficiency and combat reflexes. Also, as long as you change the single wild shaping build I could come up with into another weapon user.
    Off the top of my head, some of the elemental races have SLAs that help. Shame Oread is the only one with a stat spread you'd want and its spell is pretty useless for being an animal man.

    Altered the wolf's feats to include Iron Will instead because I am a boring person and will saves are that important. Added advice on using 0 ACP armors. Expect the inevitable "Why would untrained animals ever willingly wear armor" thread to pop up and reach 100+ posts within the week.

    Kaouse wrote:
    I'd also like to know whether or not Skinwalkers gain much use out of going Shifter, since multiple polymorph effects don't really stack.

    I was going to say "Imagine doing it as an Alchemist, but trade out X for full BAB" until I realized X was pretty much everything I liked about the Alchemist and it made me kinda sad.

    It would kind of work, especially if you pike just the right kind of Skinwalker and pick up magic items as well, treating your entire class as free claws and a couple Hunter aspects.

    SheepishEidolon wrote:

    1) Start with Wis 15 and pick up a +4 headband at level 11...

    2) Start with Wis 14, increment at level 12 and pick up the +4 headband also at level 12 (~15% WBL)...

    It becomes easier with a race that offers a +2 to Wis. Dwarves come to my mind, their -2 Cha should be fine with a shifter. Even if the flavor of a dwarf in the wilderness is odd...

    Guides are also written with an emphasis on PFS play, so plans that go beyond 12 are unlikely to see fruition without a dedicated group. Also, when it comes to races, my hands are tied when it comes to recommendations. Personally, I think Humans are your best bet anyway because all of their racial benefits translate into wild shape forms and not having bonus feats on a full BAB class hurts and not in the good way.

    Also, it's an open secret that Dwarves are better druids than Elves. Mountain homes? Closer to the earth. Forges? Bending the basic elements to create masterpieces. Beer? Well that's just made from nature now isn't it? Checkmate, Elves.

    There's been a lot of talk about alternate races and multiclassing. I do believe such topics and strategies should be put to scroll, but that would be better served in a full on guide dedicated to the class. And my big-scale efforts are going to go towards class that's been overdue for a guide since its big retcon.


    Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    Thanks for all the answers!

    Rosc wrote:
    Altered the wolf's feats to include Iron Will instead because I am a boring person and will saves are that important. Added advice on using 0 ACP armors. Expect the inevitable "Why would untrained animals ever willingly wear armor" thread to pop up and reach 100+ posts within the week.

    I thought you did a fair job of covering that.

    Shifter Guide wrote:
    there are a fair number of armors (Leather, Masterwork Studded Leather, Masterwork Leather Lamellar) that have no armor check penalty, so there's no downside to wearing it without training!

    Of the PFS races, sounds like Elf or Half-Elf (for Elven branched spear) and Tengu (for all exotic sword proficiencies and Wis bump) work pretty well. Lots of races give bonuses to the correct attributes.

    It could be amusing to do a Vanara Shifter.

    Overall, I think a lot of people will find what you wrote helpful.


    I'm surprised no onee has yet proprosed a two weapon elemental shifter build. It has a lot of bonus damage that applies to all attacks made in a single turn. maximizing the number of attacks seems like the most logical choice. Sure,it is feat-intensive, but it is like a reduced sneak attack progression on a full BAB class, except the damage is elemental and applied at the cost of a simple swift action every turn, regardless of the situation. I could see a Tengu Elementalist shifter work pretty well with this build, others have to work with two sickles.


    TWF on an elemental shifter is a neat idea, but I have personal hangups with the two weapon style after a bad experience on my avenger vigilante. Granted, a lot of it was my own dang fault but I can't say I'm all that excited about spending twice as much money and deal with DR and resistances twice as often.

    However, I will say that this archetype has potential for one of the better ways to do TWF outside of Fighter, Ranger/Slayer, and Unchained Barbarian.

    Grand Lodge

    I've built out an Oozemorph build for PFS play when it finally gets around to being added to the AR. Kitsune, constantly using shape change so theres no question about my actual ability to walk, go Dex based with an Agile AoMF. Go Fox Shape at 3rd for Beast Shape II. +4 Dex and +1 nat ac on an already high AC build so I can tank an AoO moving into an enemy square. Bite, two morphic weapons, full BAB and not extremely feat intensive. Will pick up Piranha Strike at 5th. I can also use the Oozemorph's ability to Alter Self into a Xulgath for two extra claw attacks, meaning at first level I get 5 natural attacks (Bite at 1d6, 2 claws at 1d4, and two morphic weapons at 1d6) at first level for hours per level.

    Life will suck when I enter into an antimagic field and instantly turn into an ooze-y blob and all my magic equipment falls off me, but fortunately I haven't encountered that in regular PFS play so I don't think it'll be an issue too often.


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    Syries wrote:

    I've built out an Oozemorph build for PFS play when it finally gets around to being added to the AR. Kitsune, constantly using shape change so theres no question about my actual ability to walk, go Dex based with an Agile AoMF. Go Fox Shape at 3rd for Beast Shape II. +4 Dex and +1 nat ac on an already high AC build so I can tank an AoO moving into an enemy square. Bite, two morphic weapons, full BAB and not extremely feat intensive. Will pick up Piranha Strike at 5th. I can also use the Oozemorph's ability to Alter Self into a Xulgath for two extra claw attacks, meaning at first level I get 5 natural attacks (Bite at 1d6, 2 claws at 1d4, and two morphic weapons at 1d6) at first level for hours per level.

    Life will suck when I enter into an antimagic field and instantly turn into an ooze-y blob and all my magic equipment falls off me, but fortunately I haven't encountered that in regular PFS play so I don't think it'll be an issue too often.

    Wow, you have a lot of faith it'll be legalized. I feel that odds are vastly in favor of it not being allowed because an ooze most of the time is not fitting for a society member, and this is after assuming it gets fixed so to be actually playable


    Syries wrote:

    I've built out an Oozemorph build for PFS play when it finally gets around to being added to the AR. Kitsune, constantly using shape change so theres no question about my actual ability to walk, go Dex based with an Agile AoMF. Go Fox Shape at 3rd for Beast Shape II. +4 Dex and +1 nat ac on an already high AC build so I can tank an AoO moving into an enemy square. Bite, two morphic weapons, full BAB and not extremely feat intensive. Will pick up Piranha Strike at 5th. I can also use the Oozemorph's ability to Alter Self into a Xulgath for two extra claw attacks, meaning at first level I get 5 natural attacks (Bite at 1d6, 2 claws at 1d4, and two morphic weapons at 1d6) at first level for hours per level.

    Life will suck when I enter into an antimagic field and instantly turn into an ooze-y blob and all my magic equipment falls off me, but fortunately I haven't encountered that in regular PFS play so I don't think it'll be an issue too often.

    It's my understanding it doesn't work that way. If you use your alter self to take a form with natural attacks, you can't stack morphic weapons on top.

    Or am I totally reading it wrong ?

    The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

    My understanding also. Morphic weapons are more like “add 0 or more weapons limited by x at y levels.”


    Morphic Weapons seems pretty clear to me:

    Quote:
    The total number of natural attacks an oozemorph has at any given time includes those gained via her current form. For example, an 8th-level oozemorph who has taken the form of a wolf with beast shape I has a bite attack as part of that form; she can create only two additional natural attacks via morphic weaponry, for a total of three attacks available to her at that level. If the oozemorph later reverts to a humanoid form with no natural weapons, she can instead create three morphic weapons.

    So a natural weapon granted to you by the form you shift into prevents you from using one of your morphic weapons, so the Oozemorph who wants to use morphic weapons (who takes, say, "Weapon Focus (Morphic Weapons)") ideally wants to shift into something with no natural attacks.

    I still think the best way to make a million attacks as an Oozemorph is to transform into a humanoid and TWF with unarmed strikes, taking multiattack so your penalties for your morphic weapons are -2 not -5.

    Scarab Sages

    So, do those new updates to the Shifter help the class be worthwhile?

    http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1hj

    I suppose all of the changes are improvements, but I can't shake the impression that the class is still an extreme one-trick-pony. I've rolled up a Monk/Reliquarian for our upcoming Ironfang game, and though I'd really like to give the Shifter a try instead, I can't come up with a build that could even remotely compete with the Monk in terms of versatility, variety of combat options, and long-term viability. I'm currently only allowing myself a single Occultist level because I can't bear to delay all those nice Monk abilities for longer than absolutely necessary, whereas for the Shifter, I don't see a reason not to leave after 4th (or 6th, to get the new Fury ability) and never look back.

    Do you have any suggestions on how to keep a Shifter character interesting on the long run? Maybe go into Rogue, Warpriest, Nature Fang, or Empyreal Sorcerer...?

    Also, I'm really on the edge whether Str or Dex would be preferable for a Shifter. I guess it depends a lot on the availability of Mage Armor.

    Scarab Sages

    BTW, any reason you left out the Lizard aspect? It allows a Weretouched 4 attacks in their hybrid form at 4th level, with a free grab and a free trip attempt. The increased speed is also always nice to have. Sounds pretty useful to me overall.


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    Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    If anyone is looking for a shifter guide, I made this one here: Archmage Variel's Guide to the Shifter


    I think Throat Slicer might just make for a semi-competitive Shifter build. Seemingly VERY good against a single strong target.

    Just a preliminary build out, it's 6:00AM so this is not at all a complete thought...

    Human (+2 Dex) Bonus feat: Agile maneuvers

    Abilities: Max out dex

    Take Tiger form for the dex bonus on minor form, and the grab ability granted by major form.

    Trait: serpentine squeeze for +1 grapple CMB

    Feats:
    Throat Slicer
    Imp. Grapple
    Greater Grapple
    Shifters Edge
    **That's all I can think of right now for feats**

    Equipment:
    Amulet of mighty fists with a "X" burst enhancement.

    Idea being get as much damage stacked on to a coup de grace as you can. Go for a grapple and pin, then coup de grace.
    With the coup de grace delivering an automatic critical hit, and an added save or die of DC 10+damage dealt if they survive.

    So some drawbacks that come to mind right away is that it takes 3 rounds to set up, being vulnerable while grappling moreso than Tetori, and vulnerable to freedom of movement... However, with this you will have a higher CMB to grapple than a Tetori monk being SAD and full BAB, potentially deliver an absolutely absurdly high DC save or die against fortitude. So against very strong single targets you can actually get a hold of this seems pretty good!

    Or, alternatively, grab them and rake them into ribbons? Not sure how the damage compares.


    Dot

    Scarab Sages

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Thanks for the guide, Variel! :)

    Why do you insist on a TWF build for the Weretouched, though? Wouldn't it be better for e.g. a Dex-based deino to stick to its five primary attacks and an Agile amulet? There seems to be no downside to the hybrid form over the major form for the deino, since it doesn't miss out on size bonuses.

    Might it be worthwhile for a Weretouched with 4–5 attacks to carry a shield in one hand? Missing on one attack per round for an easy boost to AC might be worth it sometimes.

    BTW, as I understand it, the Bear and Ape major forms grant reach, since they're tall creatures. That might play a role in increasing their value.


    Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Catharsis wrote:

    Thanks for the guide, Variel! :)

    Why do you insist on a TWF build for the Weretouched, though? Wouldn't it be better for e.g. a Dex-based deino to stick to its five primary attacks and an Agile amulet? There seems to be no downside to the hybrid form over the major form for the deino, since it doesn't miss out on size bonuses.

    Might it be worthwhile for a Weretouched with 4–5 attacks to carry a shield in one hand? Missing on one attack per round for an easy boost to AC might be worth it sometimes.

    BTW, as I understand it, the Bear and Ape major forms grant reach, since they're tall creatures. That might play a role in increasing their value.

    Glad you like it.

    That section was written before the implementation of Shifter's Fury and deserves a good update (probably after I finish explaining the rise of the Han dynasty for this damn essay). At the time it made a lot of sense to utilize the itterative attacks available through TWF.

    On the topic of the Ape and Bear forms, the current FAQ'd iteration of Major Form works as follows:

    "You still only get the listed abilities plus size-dependent effects (size bonuses and penalties and any natural armor). If the creature has no listed base land speed, use 30 feet as the base land speed."

    Scarab Sages

    Archmage Variel wrote:


    On the topic of the Ape and Bear forms, the current FAQ'd iteration of Major Form works as follows:

    "You still only get the listed abilities plus size-dependent effects (size bonuses and penalties and any natural armor). If the creature has no listed base land speed, use 30 feet as the base land speed."

    Isn't reach a size-dependent effect, though? Being a natural side effect of Large size and tall stature.


    PossibleCabbage wrote:
    nighttree wrote:

    I multiclassed into Metamorph/Alchemist for my character concept.

    Only did 3 levels of Oozmorph.

    To me I think 6 levels is the sweet spot, since it gets you your third morphic weapon (so you're now eligible for Multiattack, probably) so you can now use weapons- morphic and otherwise - with some effectiveness.

    This also puts you in "hey, take a prestige class" territory if any of them are really constructively compatible with the base chassis. There isn't a deity whose favored weapon is "Natural" is there? For purposes of the Sentinel PrC, that is.

    Iirc (don't have my books in front of me right now), Apsu's favoured weapon is natural. He's also got quarterstaff, but that's for his non-draconic worshippers.


    Catharsis wrote:
    Archmage Variel wrote:


    On the topic of the Ape and Bear forms, the current FAQ'd iteration of Major Form works as follows:

    "You still only get the listed abilities plus size-dependent effects (size bonuses and penalties and any natural armor). If the creature has no listed base land speed, use 30 feet as the base land speed."

    Isn't reach a size-dependent effect, though? Being a natural side effect of Large size and tall stature.

    Everything on D20PFSRD about it gives every indication that you are correct. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates/


    --Kharn-- wrote:
    Catharsis wrote:
    Archmage Variel wrote:


    On the topic of the Ape and Bear forms, the current FAQ'd iteration of Major Form works as follows:

    "You still only get the listed abilities plus size-dependent effects (size bonuses and penalties and any natural armor). If the creature has no listed base land speed, use 30 feet as the base land speed."

    Isn't reach a size-dependent effect, though? Being a natural side effect of Large size and tall stature.
    Everything on D20PFSRD about it gives every indication that you are correct. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates/

    The text from the ability is "gains beast shape II abilities that are size dependent." Reach isn't listed under beast shape II or listed in the FAQ ["(size bonuses and penalties and any natural armor)"]. Size dependent abilities from the spell are:

    "Tiny animal: If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a -2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.

    Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.

    Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.

    Large animal: If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus."


    Well that's confusing. I can see it being interpreted both ways...


    --Kharn-- wrote:
    Well that's confusing. I can see it being interpreted both ways...

    I don't understand WHY they didn't JUST print off a block of abilities that had EVERYTHING you gain: that makes it user friendly for beginners. If they couldn't do it in the book, they could at least do it for the FAQ.

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