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Ok...I started this character back when I first started playing PFS a little over a year ago, then kind of forgot about him after making a new character that fit in better with the group I was usually playing with. I have since greatly expanded the group of people I play with, so I'd like to go back and take another shot at this guy.
My goal with the character is to have a Dwarf (Or maybe a Dwarf-ish human) who wields a Dorn-Dergar. Martial focus, not really interested in magic. If I can figure out a way to do it without wearing armor, that would be a big plus.
Picture a shirtless Dwarf swinging a wrecking ball. Strong and tough. Maybe focusing on a single big hit per round with something like a Vital Strike build? Focusing on Sunder is a viable strategy as well, since this is PFS, and breaking loot does not remove it from the chronicle sheet.
I've looked at so many options that I am a bit lost...Barbarian, Brawler, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Slayer all have some solid possible options...maybe a multi-class combination of the above?
This is a PFS character, so the sooner it comes online the better, as play generally wraps up around level 11-12.
Fitting in the Darting Viper feat would be cool, switching between 5-10' as a swift action with a Dwarfs limited mobility could be helpful.
Dwarven boulder helmetm slash construction helmet is both thematic and helps with close in fighting
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Vital Strike can be built in various ways, what route you prefer ?
That is what I am trying to figure out...if there is a good way to build an un-armored Dorn-Dergar wielder.
Only the monk really seems built for fighting without armor, but I am not seeing anything there that would really work with the Dorn-Dergar.
I am open to any suggestions for builds. Vital Strike isn't essential, but it seemed like a solid option for a character with limited mobility.
Fighter would certainly grant enough feats to do just about anything, maybe even Vital Strike and Sunder...
Barbarian fits what I am picturing in my head style wise...dunno if it would have enough feats or not.
Ranger or Slayer get style feats and some other nifty things.
Maybe a multi-class combo of 2 or more of the above?
Can you describe how being unarmored fits into your concept? That might help us narrow down the possibilities.
Druid. With Fighter to start. Turn into a huge earth elemental. Your wild stone armor goes with it. Pick up the huge dorn-dergar.
That is what I am trying to figure out...if there is a good way to build an un-armored Dorn-Dergar wielder.
Only the monk really seems built for fighting without armor, but I am not seeing anything there that would really work with the Dorn-Dergar.
Take Signature Moves as one of your traits, use it to get a masterwork versatile-design(monk) dorn-dergar (850 gp). Take Modified Weapon Proficiency (dorn-dergar) as your 1st-level feat so you can still use it. Now it's a monk weapon in addition to being a flail.
I would probably go with the Master of Many Styles archetype so you can use Ascetic Style to be able to use feats with your dorn-dergar as if it were an UAS and then combine it with styles centered on UAS (which is most of them). Admittedly this gives up flurry of blows, but if you're into Vital Strike you wouldn't be using that anyway. Consider the Dwarven Hatred and/or Earth Child chains to take advantage of your race; consider Smashing Style to do some sundering and take advantage of the dorn-dergar being in the flails group.
Is the dorn-dergar even PFS-legal? Archives of Nethys seems to think not though they've been wrong before. Versatile design is marked the same way.
Also how badly do you want to avoid magic? No armor is associated with magic use and monks, but monks have a hard time using class abilities with a dorn-dergar. It night be easier to make a geokineticist who styles his earthen kinetic blade/whip as a dorn-dergar, for example.
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Dwarf Brawler, archetypes optional (consider Steel-Breaker) but I recommend keeping martial flexibility and brawler's flurry.
Take weapon proficiency for the dorn-dergar and pick up a boulder helmet and dorn-dergar at level 1.
For your maneuver training make your first choice sunder. Take power attack, improved sunder, vital strike, combat reflexes, lunge, and the like as you qualify for them.
Eventually pick up an adamantine dorn-dergar.
You will have a character who can flex in to feats as needed, vital strike sunder things with your dorn-dergar and use it to get AoOs, and if necessary you can close and brawler's flurry with your boulder helmet.
It will make you good at all the things you want it to be good at and able to adapt for when that strategy is not ideal. Having played a sunder build for PFS to 12, there are lots of scenarios where if you make that the only thing you can do, you will have a bad time. Being able to adapt will be key.
I could come up with a much more specific outline if you were interested.
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I'm picturing a dwarf in a boulder-helmet with a length of chain attached to his belt, with a two-handed hammer-throw grip at the end of the chain.
-- He is the wrecking-ball.
(Barbarian ally purchased separately.)
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The unarmored part is mostly just how I visualize the character looking. Maybe some Glamered armor to make him appear unarmored would work instead. I just didn't picture him clanking around in big heavy armor...but if armor is the only viable option, I can adjust accordingly.
Misc.: The armor modifications and weapon modifications in this book are legal for play except nimble and versatile design.
Sadly, the Versatile Design idea is out. The Dorn-Dergar is from the same book, but is not called out as being illegal. I had also briefly looked at the Meteor Hammer which is a similar weapon, but it is not a 'monk' weapon either (though I think it should be)
The Kineticst idea, while good, wont work for me. I already have an earth kineticist, and that would be a little too much character overlap.
Brawler is an interesting option, I kind of like the idea of being able to swap out combat feats as needed...but I would never be able to use Brawler's Flurry, which seems to be a central part of the class.
As for magic...I just don't really see this guy casting spells. I'm thinking more along the lines of a "Hulk Smash!" kind of character. He hits things really, really hard...and not much else.
Keep the ideas coming guys :)
Would the Avenger Vigilante work? Aren't there some uber-talents that grant the whole Vital Strike feat chain, and/or a Vital Strike Attack of Opportunity ability?
Would the Avenger Vigilante work? Aren't there some uber-talents that grant the whole Vital Strike feat chain, and/or a Vital Strike Attack of Opportunity ability?I'll have to take a look at the Avenger side of the Vigilante...I've only looked at the Stalker side and a couple of the archetypes.
I just read the Avenger Talents, and a lot of them look really fun. One lets you replace an AoO with a Dirty Trick AND you can re-direct the attack or spell! There is a Super Spring Attack that lets you bounce to an additional target at levels 10, 14, and 18! One combines Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. One gives you a +2 bonus to CMB when hidden or unnoticed. Lots of fun options.
I didn't even check out the archetypes or regular class features...
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The Vigilante class is super weird in how it works compared to other classes...a lot of the archetypes almost completely re-write the class, or should have almost been a separate specialization (Like Avenger or Stalker). The Warlock for example, completely removes the specialization and turns them into a quasi-wizard with an at-will energy blast.
The flavor of the class doesn't really fit what I am aiming for...dual identity hero and all that...but there is no mechanical reason not to just completely ignore the social identity. I have a Stalker Vigilante character who is pretty entertaining...but the difference between the Stalker and the Avenger is about as different as a Rogue to a Fighter.
Gonna go read up on the avenger side of the class now.
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So...reading a bit into it. You would get full BAB, but only d8 hit dice...not great for a martial focused character. Most of the avenger talents are basically just copies of existing feats...the only really good one would be Vital Punishment, which give you Vital Strike, and the ability to use Vital Strike on 1 AoO per round. Not really worth the loss in hit points or other feats IMO.
It might be a good dip for a martial, though. Good Reflex and Will, good skills, and lots of neat abilities. A Greater Vital Strike on a Fighter 10/Vigilante 6 would do 4d10+X on an AoO. And with a variable reach weapon, you could probably get that once per round. On average, that would be +30+ per round.
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Either the hedgehog or any familiar with initiative bonuses You'll go strength, so having a +4 on these checks is never bad. Some fights can be quickly decided so there's the need to be reactive.
No, it definitely needs to be a hedgehog. Named Regina.
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Don't forget to acquire a hedgehog Familiar.
Hedgehogs are awesome, my Geokineticist has one for a familiar :)
Ok...so after a bit of looking around at about a million different options...this is what I have come up with.
Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 3 / Brawler (Steel-Breaker, Strangler) 9
This will give me the level 3 2H Fighter ability to add double my strength when I only make 1 attack per round (instead of the normal 1.5).
The Brawler levels will give me Sunder Training, Exploit Weakness, and a handful of grappling related stuff. I'm wielding a big ball on a chain...guess I can use that chain to wrap folks up when I am not beating on them...Oh, and the ability to grab up to 2 combat feats through Martial Flexibility, so I can use other shenanigans as needed :)
Here is what I have planned out in the way of feats currently:
1. Fighter 1, Feat: Power Attack, Fighter Bonus Feat: Furious Focus
2. Fighter 2, Fighter Bonus Feat: Dirty Fighting
3. Fighter 3, Feat: Improved Grapple
4. Brawler 1
5. Brawler 2, Feat: Darting Viper, Brawler Bonus Feat: Improved Sunder
6. Brawler 3
7. Brawler 4, Feat: Vital Strike
8. Brawler 5, Brawler Bonus Feat: Greater Sunder
9. Brawler 6, Feat: Greater Grapple
10. Brawler 7
11. Brawler 8, Feat: Toughness, Brawler Bonus Feat: Improved Vital Strike
12. Brawler 9+ ???
I couldn't figure out a decent way to juggle the level progression around in a way that would let me grab Vital Strike at level 6...if you can, I would love to see it. Or, if you have other suggestions, I am open to ideas (up to and including starting over from scratch if this is just a terrible build)
That's one way. Here's what that avenger vigilante might look like BTW.
1. Dirty Fighting, social talent: renown
2: Vigilante talent: Shield of Blades - bonus feat Power Attack
3: Improved Grapple, social talent: celebrity discount
4: Vigilante talent: Favored Maneuver - bonus feat Improved Sunder
5: Darting Viper, social talent: social grace (+4 to two mental-stat skills)
6: Vigilante talent: Vital Punishment - bonus feat Vital Strike
7: Greater Sunder, social talent: great renown
8: Vigilante talent: Signature Weapon - bonus feats Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec.
9: Greater Grapple, social talent: quick change, social grace gives +4 to a 3rd skill.
10: Vigilante talent: Living Shield
11: Improved Vital Strike, social talent: incredible renown
This is about the same number of feats (one behind at levels 1-7, exactly the same from level 8), and about 1 hp/level behind - but you get vital strike on an AoO as noted before, shield of blades gives you bonus AC equal to your power attack penalty when using PA, favored maneuver gives you an additional +2 to combat maneuvers when the enemy is unaware of you, living shield makes a grappled opponent into armor for you, and you are worlds better at skills. Celebrity discount saves you 10% on many items.
With any version of this character I'd suggest using glamered armor if it's just about the look, rather than about the feel of air on his bare chest.
Stunning Irruption is from Champions of Corruption which I think isn't PFS-legal. Also certain bad GMs might read the feat as affecting the person using it.
The reason I say that is that looking at the PFS Additional Resources page Champions of Purity & Champions of Balance are mentioned but Champions of Corruption just isn't there at all. If there is some material from it used in PFS I'd expect it to appear on that page.
build snip
This build looks pretty good overall. A few things though: Why not wait for brawler / take levels in brawler earlier for IUS in order to qualify for improved grapple? Dirty Fighting seems like a wasted feat to me. You will also want greater grapple sooner rather than later if possible. It really helps with action economy.
Other ideas / suggestions: When I first read your post about being a wrecking ball I was picturing a cleave build with maybe some sunder or bullrush attached. Basically a build to run into a fight, hit the enemies and send them all flying. Dwarf opens up some good cleave options that can really increase how many targets you hit with a standard action - particularly with a reach weapon like the Dorn.
I will also second the "Kool-aid man" feat. Douglass pointed out.
The Goblin Cleaver feat and Great Cleave lets you keep hitting targets within reach that are smaller than you.
Would Glamered Armor so that you could appear to be a scantily clad dwarf be sufficient for the concept? With Muleback Cords to make your muscles look larger.
The damage isn't great (unless your a warpriest or something) but a Kyoketsu-Shoge puts a dagger in one hand to threaten near and lets you swing a metal ring around on a rope as a bludgeoning reach weapon for your wrecking ball. It's already a monk weapon for flurrying or ascetic strike. OR Kusarigama puts a kama in one hand and gives you a metal ball on a chain to swing around.
Too much armor, but here's your Mini
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This build looks pretty good overall. A few things though: Why not wait for brawler / take levels in brawler earlier for IUS in order to qualify for improved grapple? Dirty Fighting seems like a wasted feat to me. You will also want greater grapple sooner rather than later if possible. It really helps with action economy.
Other ideas / suggestions: When I first read your post about being a wrecking ball I was picturing a cleave build with maybe some sunder or bullrush attached. Basically a build to run into a fight, hit the enemies and send them all flying. Dwarf opens up some good cleave options that can really increase how many targets you hit with a standard action - particularly with a reach weapon like the Dorn.
I will also second the "Kool-aid man" feat. Douglass pointed out.
The archetypes I chose for the brawler give up IUS, and Dirty Fighting removes the need to buy it separately while also giving me a bonus on my CMB while flanking.
I considered going for a cleave build, but in my experience with PFS, it rarely comes up to where I would be able to fully utilize it. Most of the combats I have run into have been pretty small groups who don't clump up. We also have some tactically inclined GMs locally, who are used to dealing with smart players with a penchant for power gaming.
When I get home I am going to see if I can re-arrange the level order to be able to take a feat at level 6 so I don't have to delay Vital Strike.
I can always use martial flexibility to grab 1-2 cleave feats if the situation arises that I can take advantage of it.
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The biggest downside I saw with the cleaver builds is just how many feats it takes to fully realize it. Cleave, Great Cleave, Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, Giant Killer, Cleave Through, etc. For the same investment I can have a character who is really good at 2-3 different things, instead of solely relying on cleave.
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So...re-tooled the leveling order a bit so I could move Vital Strike up to level 6. Which also speeds up the Martial Flexibility by 2 levels.
1. Fighter 1, Feat: Power Attack, Fighter Bonus Feat: Furious Focus
2. Brawler 1
3. Brawler 2, Feat: Dirty Fighting, Brawler Bonus Feat: Improved Grapple
4. Brawler 3
5. Brawler 4, Feat: Improved Sunder
6. Brawler 5, Brawler Bonus Feat: Vital Strike
7. Brawler 6, Feat: Greater Grapple
8. Fighter 2, Fighter Bonus Feat: Greater Sunder
9. Fighter 3, Feat: Darting Viper
10. Brawler 7
11. Brawler 8, Feat: Toughness, Brawler Bonus Feat: Improved Vital Strike
12. Brawler 9+ ???
I am feeling a bit wishy washy about Toughness...11 HP doesn't really feel like it is worth a feat slot for some reason...especially at that high a level. Any thoughts on something to replace it?
Sundering Strike?
Another Grappling Feat?
Combat Reflexes?
Another feat requiring Power Attack, like Improved Bull Rush or Pushing Assault?
Another feat requiring Dirty Fighting (Combat Expertise), like Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Reposition, etc.?
Maybe wait and see? What level are you starting at and how long will it take you to get to 11th level? There might be a new feat from a new splatbook by then.
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I'll be 'starting' at level 2, this is technically an old character with enough XP to level up to 2. This is my last chance to rebuild him before he is fully locked in to his stats and such.
Getting to level 11 will probably take quite a while, I only get to play 2-3 times a month, and that is not always with the same character. Depends on what level range the local GMs are running during the sessions I am free to play.
I am not in a huge rush to finish this character, I do have 9 other PFS characters right now, ranging from level 1-9...I may have a slight addiction to creating characters :)
Sundering Strike is a strong possibility...of course, I am still looking at other build options.
I've heard Barbarians make pretty solid sunder focused characters with a combination of Strength Surge and some other things...so I'm currently reading up on them. Is it just me, or is the Unchained Barbarian nowhere near as good as the Core Barbarian?
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So...I was just reading up a bit on Sunder and breaking items, and if my math is right armor is tough to sunder.
So basic steel armor would get a hardness of 10, +2 per +1 of enchantment...not too bad, easily bypassed with an Adamantine weapon and/or a few other options. Lighter armors get down to almost negligible hardness.
HP on the other hand is 5x its AC bonus in HP...then an additional +10hp per +1 of enchantment...That would mean a suit of Full Plate would have 50hp (These numbers are doubled or halved per size category difference...so HP for large full plate would be 100? yikes)...a 2 inch thick iron door only has 60hp. If the armor is enchanted it gets an additional +10hp per +1 enchantment.
Weapons and shields are not nearly as tough...20HP + enchantment bonus for the toughest weapon or shield.
I calculated at level 11 (with the build outlined above) I would be doing 6d8+28 damage on a vital strike with a +1 Impact Adamantine Dorn-Dergar for an average of 55 per hit with a +26 CMB. If I have access to buffs, those numbers grow a lot (Enlarge person alone takes my damage up to 9d8+30, average 70)
At mid levels I'll be doing a lot less...like 2d10+14 or so (again, enlarge would help alot pushing those 2d10 up to 4d8)
...
Looking at how the scaling works with size differences and vital strike, now I am thinking to myself that maybe the Titan Fighter archetype might be worth looking at...run around with a Large sized Dorn-Dergar, throw around 12d8 + str/power attack/etc...if I went straight Titan Fighter, I could probably fit in all of the sunder, vital strike, and cleave feats and turn into a whirling wrecking ball of doom...off to the drawing board, see what I can whip up...
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Anyone know if there is any way within the rules to be able to Flurry (Monk/Brawler/etc) with a Dorn-Dergar?
It sounds like it should be possible with multi-classing Fighter and Sohei Monk, but HeroLab is not letting it work.
That, or any of the monk archetypes give up flurry yet stay decent? Master of Many Styles perhaps?
It was extremely uncommon to chose to go into battle without armor when the choice to instead wear armor instead existed. Armor is very good at keeping you alive.
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Anyone know if there is any way within the rules to be able to Flurry (Monk/Brawler/etc) with a Dorn-Dergar?
It sounds like it should be possible with multi-classing Fighter and Sohei Monk, but HeroLab is not letting it work.
That, or any of the monk archetypes give up flurry yet stay decent? Master of Many Styles perhaps?
Pulling off flurry with the Dorn-Dergar might not be possible. I don't think there are any deities with it as their favored weapon. That's actually one of the disappointing things for me with Pathfinder. There exist all of these race specific weapons, like the Dorn-Dergar and the Elven Curved Blade, but then none of the deities for those races have those weapons as favored weapons. I understand mechanically why that might be avoided, as those weapons tend to have more special abilities than others, but it just seems like if a weapon is favored by a race, then it should be favored by a deity of that race. At any rate, if it existed as a favored weapon somewhere, then you could dip a level of Cleric or something else that grants Channel Energy and go for Crusader's Flurry.
Versatile Design out of Adventurer's Armory 2 is the only way I can think of. It's unclear to me whether you would only need Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or if you would need Modified Weapon Proficiency. I think, since it's a martial weapon for a dwarf (It is, right? Or does it not meet the requirements of their proficiencies?), then it would just go to Exotic. Anyway, then you could add it to the close group and go Brawler.
EDIT: Although, note that Versatile Design is not PFS legal. So it's out in that setting.
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So...I ran into an interesting interaction with the Titan Fighter archetype and the Dorn-Dergar Master feat.
Titan Fighter allows you to wield 2 handed weapons that are normally to large for someone of your size category.
Dorn Dergar Master allows you to wield a normallty 2 handed weapon with 1 hand.
The way the rules are written, if you take that archetype and that feat together, you could wield a large Dorn-Dergar in one hand...or a huge Dorn-Dergar in 2 hands.
Pair that with 2 levels of either Ranger or Slayer to pick up Two Weapon Fighting (pre-req for Dorn Dergar Master) without having to invest in Dex, and I think we might have a winner.
Base Dorn-Dergar 1d10 -> Large 2d8 -> Huge 3d8 -> Impact 4d8 -> Vital Strike 8d8 -> Improved Vital Strike 12d8...(enlarged that jumps up to 12d8 Vital Strike and 18d8 Improved Vital Strike!)
My question next is if my math is correct on the pluses and minuses to hit. Because if I am right, I might have found another error in HeroLab.
Huge weapon is 2 steps up, so -4 to hit right?
Titan Fighter gives an additional -2, but at level 7 that would cancel out?
Beyond that it should be BAB+Str mod+Enchantment+any other bonuses/penalties right?
If the above is right, fully equipped and enlarged at level 12 I would be hitting at: +16 to hit?
BAB 12 + 7 Str + 1 Enchantment - 4 size penalty
Damage would be: 18d8+31? (On the rare occasion of a crit, add another 6d8+31?)
(8 Str x 1.5=12) + (8 Power Attack x 1.5=12) + 1 Enchantment + 6 Devastating Strike
Someone willing to check my work?
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Ok...I think I have the build narrowed down to 2 nearly identical builds. The feats are the same either way, the only difference would come down to the stats/traits/race stuff.
Here is what I have for feats laid out:
Fighter 10 (Martial Master/Two-Handed Fighter) / Slayer 2
1. Fighter 1, Feat: Power Attack, Fighter Feat: Furious Focus
2. Fighter 2, Fighter Feat: Weapon Focus – Dorn Dergar
3. Fighter 3, Feat: Improved Sunder
4. Slayer 1
5. Slayer 2, Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Two-Weapon Fighting, Feat: Dorn Dergar Master
6. Fighter 4, Fighter Feat: Vital Strike
7. Fighter 5, Feat: Darting Viper
8. Fighter 6, Fighter Feat: Greater Sunder
9. Fighter 7, Feat: Smashing Style: Dorn-Dergar
10. Fighter 8, Fighter Feat: Weapon Specialization: Dorn-Dergar
11. Fighter 9, Feat: Improved Vital Strike
12. Fighter 10, Fighter Feat: Devastating Strike
I will also have Martial Flexibility like the Brawler class, giving me the ability to add in 2 combat feats as a move action (or 1 as a swift) 8 times a day.
Now, my 2 choices come down to flavor mostly...I can do it as a standard Dwarf, which comes out a bit tougher...or I can play it as a Human, raised by Dwarves (who considers himself a Dwarf, not a Human)
Backstory would be his Ulfen mother fell in love with a Dwarf and made a deal with a Dragon to use its magic to let her bear the Dwarf a child, who was then raised as a Dwarf. (Works for either build)
The Dwarf version would have Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 5 with Glory of Old and Defender of the Society traits
The Human version would have 19 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 7 Cha with Indomitable Faith and Defender of the Society traits and the Human Alternate Racial Traits Adoptive Parentage: Dwarf (Dwarven Language and weapon proficiencies), and Draconic Heritage (Darkvision/Low Light Vision).
In play he will generally focus on single large hits per round with a +20(+23 Sunder) 9d8+30(+20(+25 Sunder) 12d8+32 if enlarged) vital strike...targeting weapons/armor first to weaken enemies and letting his damage carry through to injure them. Weapon would be a large sized +1 adamantine impact dorn-dergar. Full plate armor up to +3 by max level, cloak of resistance, ring of protection, etc. all the standard magic items. Martial Flexibility would allow him to adjust tactics on the fly (grab different improved/greater maneuvers, greater focus/specialization, lunge, step up, teamwork feats, etc.)
Thoughts on the build overall? Dwarf or Human? Suggestions? Anything? :)