I detect evil at it! When those are the words that kick off every social interaction with, the world becomes a very black and white place. There's no room for questionable alliances or deals with the devil when evil = smite on sight. As a GM, how can you build around this play style? Should you try and break players out of the habit, or incorporate it into your adventure design? How do you play it at your table?
Undetectable alignment, it's easy to get.
Also atonement is a thing, so if he kills someone who keeps a society running, have him fall, if he complains tell him to deal, he's a paladin not a moron.
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An evil person can tell the truth. An evil person may well be incredibly helpful is the situation is appropriate. Also who says neutral creatures can't be evil sometimes?
Also if your group is just randomly killing people because they are evil, there should be repercussions for this. The evil guild gets wind and sends assassins after them or something.
Also Undetectable Alignment. It is something even Paladin's get. Also RAW, a random NPC with 4 HD or less doesn't give off a strong enough presence to be a blip on the detect evil radar.
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Not everyone evil detects as evil - you usually need at least 5HD.
Even if they are, there are magical ways of concealing this.
Not everyone who detects as evil is evil - you might be a neutral cleric of an evil god, for example.
Some enemies are not evil. For example, a neutral being under the control of an evil caster. Or someone who believes you to be evil.
Some evil people are not enemies. What does the Paladin do if he finds that the army going out to defend the kingdom from the orcs is about 25% evil?
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See how he reacts to children that are part of a generally or inherently evil race. They may detect as evil, but killing them would also be evil.
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They may detect as evil, but killing them would also be evil.
Well. There goes this thread.
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I detect evil at it! When those are the words that kick off every social interaction with, the world becomes a very black and white place. There's no room for questionable alliances or deals with the devil when evil = smite on sight. As a GM, how can you build around this play style? Should you try and break players out of the habit, or incorporate it into your adventure design? How do you play it at your table?
Killing someone just for being evil is highly illegal, and last I checked paladins were Lawful as well as Good. Point this out.
The player blighted several campaigns before we finally kicked him out, but the paladin was the worst because the GM did nothing about it.
In retrospect, what do you think the GM should have done?
"If you do that, you will fall."
Show players that "Smite on Sight" wont go well for them.
Player detects evil on merchant, discovers this unusually high level merchant (characters below level 5 don't have an aura) is evil and proceeds to kill them. This is followed by the paladin's arrest for unlawful murder, and probably also a loss of powers. The paladin has no idea why the merchant is evil, or what they've done. This theoretical merchant in my example could be evil because he overcharges everyone, or maybe because he does things like sell food by weight but adds weights to the scale where the customer can't see.
Regardless, teach your players that detect evil isn't justification on it's own to do anything.
You also need to show your players that working with evil can be beneficial. Perhaps you work with an evil mercenary to save the town from a plight of zombies or something.
If you never do anything to force your players to experience things as other than black and white when it comes to good and evil of course they'll never react any other way.
The next time they detect evil and Smite on Sight get them arrested and thrown in jail to teach them a lesson.
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I detect evil at it! When those are the words that kick off every social interaction with, the world becomes a very black and white place. There's no room for questionable alliances or deals with the devil when evil = smite on sight. As a GM, how can you build around this play style? Should you try and break players out of the habit, or incorporate it into your adventure design? How do you play it at your table?
If the players chose that style of play, then don't design adventures where they need to ally with evil people. Some people want a morally simple game. Every friendly person they meet is not evil, so Detect Evil will be a rude waste of time.
If one player chose that style despite the wishes of the other players, then give that smiting character a reputation. Morally tarnished people will know to deal with the party indirectly, such as by messages delivered by innocent couriers.
Also, highlight the rudeness of the act. Perhaps have a needy person approach the party with important information. When the paladin casts Detect Evil and learns she is not evil, she runs. When the party catches her or encounters her again, she explains that paladins cast that spell before they kill people, so she was afraid. (She grew up in a very rough neighborhood.)
In addition, you could give examples where smiting evil people would be clearly unlawful. For example, what if the only person who can provide a map of the orcish caverns is an evil person in prison? Smiting the prisoner would be an evil act, and would prevent gaining the information from him.
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Your campaign might vary but I understand that most civilized societies in Golarion treat divination like a polygraph test. Might influence things but no death sentence will be assigned based solely on it.
Only the most war-torn/terrorized regions or the most authoritarian governments make regular use of divination for law enforcement. The worldwound paladins are on constant alert for disguised demons, but even then when they detect evil the offending character will receive a long interrogation and a great deal of suspicion (possible exile), not a death sentence. Some parts of Cheliax uses detect chaos to root out clerics of outlawed gods.
Your campaign may vary but spell-like abilities have obvious manifestations. Casting a spell-like ability as soon as you meet someone is the height of rudeness, especially of the witness has no idea what you are casting. As far as they know you could be throwing a fireball at them.
Have an enemy arrange to put evil auras on innocent civilians. There’s a bunch of ways to do this.
Do spell-like abilities have a visible manifestation? Even if not, staring at someone while concentrating deeply for three seconds ought to get you a funny look at best.
(My party keeps asking why I don't just detect magic every time we walk into, e.g., a crowded ballroom. I tell them that waving my hands about and chanting loudly while arcane symbols/flashes of light/whatnot spout forth from my hands is considered rude in polite company.)
Imagine the following:
The PCs are rewarded by the local monarch after some heroic doings that saved their hometown from something. There's a big ceremony with a procession and an honor guard and everything. The monarch is above 5HD, and if anybody scans him or her with Detect Evil they will see "yup, evil."
But no matter how much they dig into the monarch's background, they find no skeletons, demons, devils, or anything particularly dangerous or eldritch. The monarch in question is just selfish and primarily concerned at protecting their own position and power, and while they're not above a little light malfeasance here and there, they've decided the best tactic to protect their position of power is to simply do a good job and make sure people are content; the calculus being that "remaining in charge and living a life of comfort and luxury" is preferable from a naïve utilitarian perspective than "risking one's position in an attempt to acquire as much comfort and luxury as possible." After all, one can only eat so much caviar before the physical act of eating becomes unpleasant, so having extra does you no good.
If the "scan & smite" character decides that "surrounded by a significant portion of the honor guard of someone who commands an army" is a good time and place for an impromptu regicide, they get to make a new character and the rest of the party gets to answer a lot of questions about their now deceased cohort.
I'll give an NPC a chance to recognize that a spell has been cast and identify it if he is capable. Whether or not the NPC knows what has been cast, he may view that as a hostile act, or simply refuse to engage as a result. The same goes for other divinations.
I'd try to break them of the habit, because players actively being disruptive and stupid is insufferable.
Most evil people are just enormous d&&~#eads, not full-bore monsters. The PC knowing not to trust a subject is one thing; the PC immediately trying to kill the subject is another.
The PC knowing not to trust a subject is one thing; the PC immediately trying to kill the subject is another.
Let's take it down a notch then. If "I don't trust this guy" becomes "I will never believe anything this guy has to say," are we still dealing with a problem?
The PC knowing not to trust a subject is one thing; the PC immediately trying to kill the subject is another.Let's take it down a notch then. If "I don't trust this guy" becomes "I will never believe anything this guy has to say," are we still dealing with a problem?
If the paladin is party face, yes.
If the paladin is party leader, yes.
If the paladin refuses to abide by the party's decision-making mechanism, whether that be consensus or leader-says or whatever, then yes.
Otherwise no, it's just an annoyance.
Here's another thing to consider.
In a world where Pathfinder level magic is around, what person in a civilized society would be comfortable with some random person arbitrarily casting spells at them without permission? At the very least, it would be considered incredibly rude and a breach of basic etiquette.
Was this covered in Ultimate Intrigue? I hear this trope enough that I wouldn't mind seeing a proper write-up on it.
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Do spell-like abilities have a visible manifestation? Even if not, staring at someone while concentrating deeply for three seconds ought to get you a funny look at best.
(My party keeps asking why I don't just detect magic every time we walk into, e.g., a crowded ballroom. I tell them that waving my hands about and chanting loudly while arcane symbols/flashes of light/whatnot spout forth from my hands is considered rude in polite company.)
Since this wasn't directly answered, YES, SLA look just the same a spells with those clearly magical manifestations that show up indicating magic is going on from you.
I actually had a paladin player get so mad they walked out of the game in PFS. They were infiltrating an enemy prison, they had a guy set over them to watch the "temp workers". The paladin goes to cast detect evil and the watcher asks them politely to not cast spells since they are unneeded, he doesn't know spells, and he is a little wary of these new "temp workers" and I show the player the FAQ explaining that it looks magical. Then the paladin says he wants to wait for the guy to not be looking at him to cast, but I tell him that won't work because he would see you still if you're in the same room since perception is all directions. Paladin gets frustrated that I'm targeting him and limiting his contribution to role play and storms out cause he can't cast detect evil on everyone.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is having all magic be obviously 'magical,' regardless of how you conceal it stupid? Yes.
Does it contradict previously printed rules for casting on the sly? Yes.
Does it contradict earlier scenarios? Yes.
Does it make several stealth and intrigue-based monsters now unable to do their primary schtick? Yes.
Does it exist solely because of psychic casting? Yes.
Is it written anywhere someone who doesn't keep up with every FAQ would know about? No.
Does it add any enjoyment or fun to the game? ...No? Not really, at least.
Is it RAW? ....Yes, unfortunately.
Being evil is not illegal.
Attacking and killing other people without provocation is. Even if you are a paladin.
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Is having all magic be obviously 'magical,' regardless of how you conceal it stupid? Yes.
Does it contradict previously printed rules for casting on the sly? Yes.
Does it contradict earlier scenarios? Yes.
Does it make several stealth and intrigue-based monsters now unable to do their primary schtick? Yes.
Does it exist solely because of psychic casting? Yes.
Is it written anywhere someone who doesn't keep up with every FAQ would know about? No.
Does it add any enjoyment or fun to the game? ...No? Not really, at least.
Is it RAW? ....Yes, unfortunately.
There are previously (i.e., pre-Ultimate Intrigue) printed rules for casting on the sly?
Not really, no.
The Spellcraft skill simply provides
Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.
From that you can deduce the following --
1) If you're good enough at Spellcraft, you can accurately identify a spell that's being cast a football field away from you. (that's only a -30 or so on the check, I think?)
2) Spellcasting is so conspicuous that it can be recognized across a football field. Being invisible doesn't actually conceal your casting, it just adds +40 to the DC to figure out what you're doing.
You need the actual spellcraft skill to know what's being cast (if there's no obvious clue, like a lightning bolt going off), but by default spellcasting is about as subtle as a shotgun.
Now, what's kind of weird is that still spell and silent spell somehow don't actually conceal spellcasting in the slightest, and IIRC you need a whole new thing from Ultimate Intrigue to do it instead.
There are previously (i.e., pre-Ultimate Intrigue) printed rules for casting on the sly?Is having all magic be obviously 'magical,' regardless of how you conceal it stupid? Yes.
Does it contradict previously printed rules for casting on the sly? Yes.
Does it contradict earlier scenarios? Yes.
Does it make several stealth and intrigue-based monsters now unable to do their primary schtick? Yes.
Does it exist solely because of psychic casting? Yes.
Is it written anywhere someone who doesn't keep up with every FAQ would know about? No.
Does it add any enjoyment or fun to the game? ...No? Not really, at least.
Is it RAW? ....Yes, unfortunately.
It's been a while, but I think Skull and Shackles (or something printed in that vicinity/theme) said you could cast a spell with somatic components without anyone noticing if you managed a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. Could be wrong, though. It's been a while since I read any of that stuff.
The solution to this problem was to remove alignments from the game. We're all much happier for it.
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It's OT, but I think the noticeable casting issue is an important balancing decision. Full casters are already far more powerful that non-full casters. Giving them the ability to also cast without anyone being able to detect their casting pushes the scale even further in their direction.
I think it is something that should be possible, in game, but only with investment of feats with level and/or skill pre-requisite requirements.
Otherwise, first level arcane casters with Hypnotism would be running just about every town in Golarion. Unless a higher level Enchanter was present, then he/she would be in charge.
I think it's also a reasonable decision to make "you can cast your stuff in a way that nobody notices" to be a thing a character needs to invest in (via the feats Cunning Caster or Conceal Spell) rather than just a thing anybody can do by default.
Plus the surefire way it worked before still works, if you're hiding and they don't notice you they likely won't notice your sneaky spell either.
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My solution to "Detect & Smite" is to remind the player of the limitations of Detect Evil and the ways it can be subverted, then to remind that it's possible to redeem evil instead of just killing it.
If, for example, an informant offers to snitch on the secret dealings of the corrupt aristocracy, and the paladin thrusts their holy symbol in the informant's face with a shout of, "Iomedae, show me where the evil lies!" I'd just have the informant reply with, "Please don't kill me! I just want them dead because of what they did to me! To my family! To the whole **** city!" With the right moral guidance and assistance (whether I'm planning for a fight with an evil aristocrat, or a public defaming), the informant could shift to Neutral, in a non-violent way of vanquishing evil.
But that's if the player wants to be a paladin, I want to run an adventure with intrigue and moral ambiguity, and we're all okay with it.
If the paladin wants to detect & smite and we're in a dungeon crawl where moral philosophy isn't a part of the plot, I won't mind. If it spots a disguised devil's ruse, killing the devil won't make the paladin fall, no matter how much that devil insists it will so they should cease the smiting and just give up.
(Edit: I originally went into this thread expecting something like, "A player wants to portray their character as addicted to casting this spell, and wants mechanical withdrawl for not doing it daily! How do I figure this out?")
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Children don't detect as evil, they'd need at least 5HD. I don't think there's any creatures with an Aura of Evil that can also be children.Dragons, Most/Some of them have enough Hit Dice right out of the egg to show up on Detect spells.
They're still a functional hypercarnivore that can easily be a target of a double smite by their very nature. (If they're evil dragons)
Yeah, a red dragon comes right out of its egg with 7 hit dice, a 10 int and the knowledge that (a) everything in the world belongs to it and (b) unmated adolescent humanoids are delicious.
Dragons being mortal creatures with prescriptive alignments is one of their more interesting quirks, and drives home how unnatural they actually are.
I detect evil at it! When those are the words that kick off every social interaction with, the world becomes a very black and white place. There's no room for questionable alliances or deals with the devil when evil = smite on sight. As a GM, how can you build around this play style? Should you try and break players out of the habit, or incorporate it into your adventure design? How do you play it at your table?
Killing a being for how they think is murder and evil, even if what they THINK is evil or believe is evil.
You can oppose their evil ACTIONS but simply because you know they are evil you do not have free reign to slaughter them.
Yes break them of this habit with appropriate ramifications for their bloodthirsty actions.
Also good deities frown on paladins who use force as the first or only answer to every situation. They seldom stay paladins for long.
The next time your smiteadin does this ask him what legal and moral grounds the character is using for killing someone simply because they detect as evil, since simply detecting as evil is not enough to allow murder.
Yeah, a red dragon comes right out of its egg with 7 hit dice, a 10 int and the knowledge that (a) everything in the world belongs to it and (b) unmated adolescent humanoids are delicious.
Dragons being mortal creatures with prescriptive alignments is one of their more interesting quirks, and drives home how unnatural they actually are.
To be fair, dragon wyrmlings appear to be born sentient and smarter than many adult humans.
I think there's a lot of space to interpret how bad a normal humanoid needs to be before they qualify (and detect) as Evil. I mean, the typical devil from Hell is Evil, but is a merchant who cheats on weighing products (as suggested above) really Evil? I don't know. Maybe it is up to each group. Maybe it depends on whether his cheating is inflicting great suffering. Maybe it depends on whether he's doing it out of greed or there's some sadism mixed in.
Some might say that even being a murderer might not be enough to make you detect as Evil in many cases. If you worship a deity of murder and devote your life to a philosophy of murder and wickedness that's Evil, but if you just fly off the handle one time and kill somebody would you show up on the Evil radar? I don't know. The fact that you need to be 5 HD tall to register implies to me that maybe it is supposed to take special and powerful Evil.
In the case of special, powerful Evil I'd agree that some reflection upon whether or not you can defeat this particular Evil might be wise. If the party caster offers to Plane Shift your 11th level Paladin to the Abyss so he can go nuts slaying Chaotic Evil demons is that a good plan?
Once a DM (perhaps foolishly) showed our party of around 2nd or 3rd level PCs a Balor or Pit Fiend as part of a roleplaying encounter. The party's Paladin really wanted to fight it. I'm not sure if he was just roleplaying or maybe thought that surely the DM wouldn't let us meet anything we weren't supposed to kill.