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Can We Talk About Black Butterfly?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Meanwhile Lemartes wonders what a leopediotrist is?


If somebody put her in a Colossal Adamanitine Butterfly net, would it supersede her ability to always be able to move?


The Sideromancer wrote:
If somebody put her in a Colossal Adamanitine Butterfly net, would it supersede her ability to always be able to move?

Her Celestial Grace would prevent any entangling effects (or other effects, like difficult terrain, solid fog, etc.) from slowing her down. By itself, it won't stop her from being prevented from moving entirely (such as being glued to the floor by a tanglefoot bag, held in a mancatcher, or possibly a rigid-handled net or noose) but in Defenses it lists her as also having freedom of movement. So that works in tandem with the Celestial Grace, which pretty much stops most methods of preventing movement (holds, paralyze, grappling, etc.). Really, only enclosing her in a space or crowding her with foes to where she can't legally make a 5-foot step will work, since she can't be slowed (Celestial Grace) or held in place by most conventional or magical means (freedom of movement).

Obviously if you can cut off her wings, damage them in a way where she can't fly, or some other method, then she can't fly and can't 5-foot step with that movement. On that note, cutting off her legs so she can't move normally would also legally stop her from 5-foot stepping, since that's not an effect hindering her movement, it's a disability and limitation. Technically, if you can knock her prone, she can't 5-foot step without standing up (assuming she can't fly up from prone, ie. you've dealt with her wings), but damaging body parts (in combat) is not always available in all games.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Cuup wrote:
OK, I challenge you to make a 20th level character with at least a +53 in Perception...

1 spell... 20 ranks and +3 FCB, add in the Acute Senses spell makes 53 on its own. And if she is spamming Dispel Magic on your 2nd level spells, you are already ahead in the game! And you can give this to anyone >_>

OK. This may be difficult for any ONE, SINGLE person to deal with, but considering most parties are between 4 to 6 people, you have significantly more options available to you, readied actions and delayed actions being an obvious example. That and you simply have 4x to 6x the amount of bodies moving so she is fighting a MASSIVE action economy disadvantage. Use it.

To start with, her first "dangerous" ability is her ranged weapon.
There are a few options to deal with this here. Deflect/Snatch Arrows are an easy example of reducing this (however, if you catch the starknife, does that prevent it from returning?). Cut From the Air can significantly reduce the number of shots against you, and its easily possible to have more Dex then she has attacks.
Some spells can also reduce or even negate ranged attacks entirely, one of them is the Winds of Vengeance spell, which simply makes all ranged attacks auto-miss for 20 minutes. Or an Empowered Spell Turning can protect you from a Dispel attempt on its own, or Spellbane keyed to Dispel Magic and Deeper Darkness would go a LOOONG way to keeping you safe. Another one, Iron Body grants DR 15, which SIGNIFICANTLY reduces her damage (Lots of medium/weak attacks).
Side note, an Invulnerable Barbarian can get between 23-29 DR, which could completely negate her damage.

Additionally, multiple characters can take appropriate actions, such as Aid Another or readied defensive spells to significantly reduce her "threat". The Bodyguard feat lets you boost an Allies AC by up to a significant amount. With things like the Helpful trait, and wearing Benevolent armor, and a Ring of Tactical Precision can grant any adjacent ally +10 AC against every attack. OR He could simply wear an Arrow Catching shield can force all the attacks to strike him, instead of those adjacent to him. This can make it very hard for her to hurt at least a few of your allies.
Pair that with a wizard wearing a pair of +5 Defending gauntlets for and additional +10 AC.

Another option is to simply target her weapon itself, using readied actions.
A readied Disintegrate that triggers when she throws the starknife (or when the starknife returns to her, if that is not allowed) can shut it down hard.
Or, have a Sunder Specialist ready an attack against the starknife if it comes within reach. A steal effect only has to succeed once to really disadvantage her (Cyclops Helm?) if ever the oppertunity presents itself.

With her ranged options weakened or eliminated, fighting her becomes easier.

If ever a Two-Weapon Fighter manages to get within melee range of her and has a full-attack action available, he could quite easily blend her in a single round.
Similarly, if a fully stacked archer ever gets the chance to unload a full attack on her, she is probably toast.

So the trick is simply creating opportunities for that to happen.
A wizard who boosts his perception high enough and also prepares a method of negating/revealing her, along with a quickened Teleport can basically win it right there.

Heres a scenario:
Ranger, Cleric, Wizard, Fighter.
Ranger is an archer, Cleric is a tank, Wizard has a scroll/wand using Familiar, Fighter is a Two-Weapon specialist.
Ranger, Cleric and Wizard stand shoulder to shoulder with the Cleric in the middle, the Cleric has the Bodyguard tricks and/or Arrow Catching armor above.

Ranger and Fighter delay until after the Wizard goes, Cleric buffs. Familiar doles out scroll/wand buffs such as Acute Senses as needed.
Wizard readies an action for the moment she 5-ft steps or teleports.

So what does she do? If she attacks someone with her starknife, the Cleric will negate or absorb most of her damage, if she attempts to teleport or use Silence Between, then the Wizard will act after she appears wherever that might be. At that point, the Wizard will attempt to make a Perception check (possibly with Cyclops Helm) loacating her, then cast a light spell at her, revealing her. Then casts a quickened teleport, placing the Fighter directly into melee range with her.
Now, both the Ranger and the Fighter act, and thats a skewered Butterfly :/

Or, she can attempt to cast a SLA like Dispel, but then she reveals herself (and does not step away), leaving herself exposed once the Rangers delay is up. Besides, the Dispel has a good chance of being absorbed by the Wizards defensive buffs (Spell Turning, Spellbane). If she does teleport after this, it reverts to that above.

Or she can simply delay, hoping to out-stall them, but that only takes a slight change on the Rangers part to make that tactic unusable.

Basically, the only option she has left is to simply teleport way outside of the range of the Wizard, she cant actually fight. She can only flee.
Now, that assumes that everyone knows exactly what the other people are planning and doing. Most likely the Butterfly does not know what they are waiting for and will then blunder into the parties trap.

All this is only a 4-man party composed of a Cleric, Wizard, Archer Ranger and 2-Weapon Fighter. They are well prepared but hardly outside the expected realm of a 20th lvl party.

So, its possible :/


An interesting thing I noticed is that it only seems to require 4 people to hedge in a large-sized creature to prevent a 5-foot step*, whereas it requires 8 people to surround and prevent a medium or smaller size creature from taking a 5-foot step. Her Large size actually works to her disadvantage in such situations for being surrounded or being trapped within walls, forcecages, or other barriers that wouldn't allow her to freedom of movement past or through.

* Without accounting for Flight, which could probably be stopped with one (two at most) additional people or summoned creatures hovering or flying above.


Rain of Arrows will trump her DR20/Epic and Evil, as it will deal 20d6 at 20th level, and any self respecting spellcaster will have Intesified Spell, Empowered Spell, a way to lower the Metamagic Cost by two, and their Caster Level at at least 25 by 20th level, so actually it will deal (25d6)*1.5. At minimum (that is, you rolled a 1, 25 f***ing times in a row), it will deal 0 damage (17 if failed reflex), at average 45 (110 failed reflex), and at max, 92 (205 if failed reflex)

All you have to do is beat her initiative, and you can knock off about 1/6th of her hp in one shot. A team of 7 all casters beating her initiative would be overkill. I think there are ways to also apply the quickened metamagic feat freely, through magic items, but I don’t know them off of the top of my head, but anyways, assuming that is possible, then a team of 4 all casters would be enough if they all beat her initiative.


Also, once again a Geysermancer pretty much wins the fight all by themselves. Especially if they're mythic.


As I said, a level 20 party has way more power than most people think. It's when you play at that level that you discover exactly what lvl 20 means.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Also, once again a Geysermancer pretty much wins the fight all by themselves. Especially if they're mythic.

remind me again what they do?


Lady-J wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Also, once again a Geysermancer pretty much wins the fight all by themselves. Especially if they're mythic.
remind me again what they do?

Here's the original build.

Butterfly can't beat Geyser's initiative and can't make the saves. If Butterfly started the fight out of stealth, she's stun-locked in round 1. If she starts the fight stealthed she has a much better chance, but as soon as Geyser gets and action they're going to pull out Time Stop/Locate Object ("that star knife that just hit me in the back a bunch"), and maybe a couple other divination to nail down Butterfly's position. Geyser doesn't have to know exactly. Within about 50 feet is close enough.

Basically, if Butterfly can't take out Geyser in the surprise round, she's screwed.

The only potential way out for her is if Dazed counts as an "effect that would reduce her movement speed or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step" in which case, she's fine.


Doomed Hero wrote:
The only potential way out for her is if Dazed counts as an "effect that would reduce her movement speed or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step" in which case, she's fine.

I think it comes down to whether "action" is "a thing you decide you do and then it happens" (in which case non-actions like 5-foot steps are actions) or whether "action" is a thing that consumes a certain resource in the action economy (full-round, attack, standard, swift, immediate, free) as to which one dazed prohibits you from taking.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that "allowing 5-foot steps while dazed" is silly, so the Butterfly escapes again.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Also, once again a Geysermancer pretty much wins the fight all by themselves. Especially if they're mythic.
remind me again what they do?

Here's the original build.

Butterfly can't beat Geyser's initiative and can't make the saves. If Butterfly started the fight out of stealth, she's stun-locked in round 1. If she starts the fight stealthed she has a much better chance, but as soon as Geyser gets and action they're going to pull out Time Stop/Locate Object ("that star knife that just hit me in the back a bunch"), and maybe a couple other divination to nail down Butterfly's position. Geyser doesn't have to know exactly. Within about 50 feet is close enough.

Basically, if Butterfly can't take out Geyser in the surprise round, she's screwed.

The only potential way out for her is if Dazed counts as an "effect that would reduce her movement speed or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step" in which case, she's fine.

neat bookmarked the build for later probably wont use the ifrit race if i end up building it as outsiders generall also beside careful placement how would one avoid hitting ones self or allies with the geyser


Doomed Hero wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Also, once again a Geysermancer pretty much wins the fight all by themselves. Especially if they're mythic.
remind me again what they do?

Here's the original build.

Butterfly can't beat Geyser's initiative and can't make the saves. If Butterfly started the fight out of stealth, she's stun-locked in round 1. If she starts the fight stealthed she has a much better chance, but as soon as Geyser gets and action they're going to pull out Time Stop/Locate Object ("that star knife that just hit me in the back a bunch"), and maybe a couple other divination to nail down Butterfly's position. Geyser doesn't have to know exactly. Within about 50 feet is close enough.

Basically, if Butterfly can't take out Geyser in the surprise round, she's screwed.

The only potential way out for her is if Dazed counts as an "effect that would reduce her movement speed or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step" in which case, she's fine.

Nope. Won't work. He would need a clear mental image of the Starknife which we have been told by the devs is considered part of her body. As such not only is a clear mental image unlikely, but if it's part of her body it's not a valid target.

In fact, once time stop is cast any divinations that target black butterfly automatically fail.

"While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."

On dazed:
"The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.

A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round."

Dazed prevents her from taking a 5ft step, thus won't work.

Yet another power gamer build goes down against the Black Butterfly.


HWalsh wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Also, once again a Geysermancer pretty much wins the fight all by themselves. Especially if they're mythic.
remind me again what they do?

Here's the original build.

Butterfly can't beat Geyser's initiative and can't make the saves. If Butterfly started the fight out of stealth, she's stun-locked in round 1. If she starts the fight stealthed she has a much better chance, but as soon as Geyser gets and action they're going to pull out Time Stop/Locate Object ("that star knife that just hit me in the back a bunch"), and maybe a couple other divination to nail down Butterfly's position. Geyser doesn't have to know exactly. Within about 50 feet is close enough.

Basically, if Butterfly can't take out Geyser in the surprise round, she's screwed.

The only potential way out for her is if Dazed counts as an "effect that would reduce her movement speed or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step" in which case, she's fine.

Nope. Won't work. He would need a clear mental image of the Starknife which we have been told by the devs is considered part of her body. As such not only is a clear mental image unlikely, but if it's part of her body it's not a valid target.

In fact, once time stop is cast any divinations that target black butterfly automatically fail.

"While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell."

On dazed:
"The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.

A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round."

Dazed prevents her from taking a 5ft step, thus won't work.

Yet another power gamer build goes down against the Black Butterfly.

dazing spell on geyser will last 5 rounds and they need to make a new save every round they take damage from the spell reapplying the effect so at level 20 with appropriate feats and what not the geyser will last concentration +23 rounds so even if they ditch concentration it still lasts for 23 rounds then if they fail their 1st save they are dazed for 5 rounds, then each round they need to make a new save vs being dazed for 5 rounds so it has a potential for dazing them for 28 rounds if you give up on concentration, prevention from taking actions and specifically disallowing them taking a 5 foot step are two different things as things that are called out for preventing 5 foot steps are hazardous terrain or obstacles were the daze effect just prevents all actions all together


"or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step"
That is very very broad strokes, and because Daze prevents all actions, and taking a 5 ft step is a type of action, she ignores Dazed.

It is probably not intended, but it does work that way.


J4RH34D wrote:

"or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step"

That is very very broad strokes, and because Daze prevents all actions, and taking a 5 ft step is a type of action, she ignores Dazed.

It is probably not intended, but it does work that way.

death also prevents her from taking a 5 foot step does that also mean she is immune to death?


Lady-J wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:

"or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step"

That is very very broad strokes, and because Daze prevents all actions, and taking a 5 ft step is a type of action, she ignores Dazed.

It is probably not intended, but it does work that way.

death also prevents her from taking a 5 foot step does that also mean she is immune to death?

Actually, amusingly, the Death Condition doesn't actually stop characters from acting. That has been a joke for a very long time. As such, since Death doesn't stop her from taking actions, it simply moves her soul on... She's not immune to Death, because Death doesn't stop anyone from taking actions.

"The character’s hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."

Nowhere does it say they can't take actions.

However, "The character's soul leaves his body" would mean that the body no longer moves. So I guess her soul could still take a 5ft step.

But yes, as stated, you can't in any way stop Black Butterfly from being able to take a 5ft step and any power that you find that could manage it (daze, etc) is already hard coded as not being able to work.

The Devs were smart. They wrote the power so that even if you find a loophole you still can't do it.


J4RH34D wrote:

"or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step"

That is very very broad strokes, and because Daze prevents all actions, and taking a 5 ft step is a type of action, she ignores Dazed.

It is probably not intended, but it does work that way.

I think it is intended. Paizo has said in the past that they didn't want to stat out Gods/Demi-Gods because "If you stat it, they will kill it."

So, knowing that there is no way to stop every possible loophole, the devs made sure that there was no way to "cheap kill" the Black Butterfly.

Can you kill her? Certainly.

Heck, I could make a Level 20, ML 5 party that could, if not kill her, at least drive her off. Its not even that hard to do.

All you need to do is ready an attack to hit her when she pops up to attack someone else.

So she full attacks, your attack goes off, you hit her, she 5ft steps and vanishes.

If you are a Mythic level group, you can heal through her damage, and eventually you are going to whittle her down enough that she retreats.

She's not meant to be killed 1v1.

So use smart group tactics:

Assuming you have a group of 4...

Round 1:
Everyone delays but 2 different people who can cast Daylight (scroll, spell, etc), those two ready actions to cast "Daylight" after Black Butterfly attacks.

Black Butterfly attacks. Someone eats a Full Attack. You are a level 20 at least ML 5 party. You can live through it. You might get dropped, you might not.

Daylight is cast on her. She can't 5ft step and insta-hide now and can't cast Deeper Darkness until her next turn.

The delaying people act, and using their Mythic Abilities, front load whatever they can into Black Butterfly. In many cases this means that she'll eat 2 full attacks.

People claim that Mythic Level heroes can easily put out 400 damage in a round on a full attack. My build can't, but enough people claim this is true that I am willing to believe it. I assume it is easily do-able by people who power game.

2 full attacks at 400 damage each laid into her is enough to kill Black Butterfly.

Game, set, match.

It doesn't require a power gamed cheese build. It just requires some good old fashioned teamwork and planning.

---
Edit to Add:

Hitting her 46 AC isn't even that hard:

Level 20: BAB +20/+15/+10/+5
+6 from stat from starting at 18, and +1 at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20
+2 from stat from the +2's from Mythic Tier 2 and 4.
+3 to stat from +6 boosting item
(Total is: +11) = +31
+5 Weapon = +36
+1 Weapon Focus: +37

Without pulling any shenanigans with with wish spells or tomes or anything else you can hit Black Butterfly on a 10.

Grab a level of Precision from your Mythic Tier and you can improve your chances of hitting her. Use a Brilliant Energy weapon and you are aiming at like a 34. Meaning you auto-hit her.

The problem is people are focused, so much, on beating her with cute methods, or exploit methods, or trying to 1v1 her with broken power gamed mega-builds that they are overlooking the simple solution.


HWalsh wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:

"or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step"

That is very very broad strokes, and because Daze prevents all actions, and taking a 5 ft step is a type of action, she ignores Dazed.

It is probably not intended, but it does work that way.

I think it is intended. Paizo has said in the past that they didn't want to stat out Gods/Demi-Gods because "If you stat it, they will kill it."

So, knowing that there is no way to stop every possible loophole, the devs made sure that there was no way to "cheap kill" the Black Butterfly.

Can you kill her? Certainly.

Heck, I could make a Level 20, ML 5 party that could, if not kill her, at least drive her off. Its not even that hard to do.

All you need to do is ready an attack to hit her when she pops up to attack someone else.

So she full attacks, your attack goes off, you hit her, she 5ft steps and vanishes.

If you are a Mythic level group, you can heal through her damage, and eventually you are going to whittle her down enough that she retreats.

She's not meant to be killed 1v1.

So use smart group tactics:

Assuming you have a group of 4...

Round 1:
Everyone delays but 2 different people who can cast Daylight (scroll, spell, etc), those two ready actions to cast "Daylight" after Black Butterfly attacks.

Black Butterfly attacks. Someone eats a Full Attack. You are a level 20 at least ML 5 party. You can live through it. You might get dropped, you might not.

Daylight is cast on her. She can't 5ft step and insta-hide now and can't cast Deeper Darkness until her next turn.

The delaying people act, and using their Mythic Abilities, front load whatever they can into Black Butterfly. In many cases this means that she'll eat 2 full attacks.

People claim that Mythic Level heroes can easily put out 400 damage in a round on a full attack. My build can't, but enough people claim this is true that I am willing to believe it. I assume it is easily do-able by people who power game.

2 full attacks at 400...

mythic vital strike can net you over 2k damage if done right, or a single gestalt monk/sorc can just out right kill them with disintegrate monk of the four winds for 3 standards in a round then empower maximized persistent disintegrate 3 times and they will be dead of they are a mythic caster even better that way you get another die per caster level and 2 rays per cast for a total of 6 rays in a round each ray will deal 621 damage if just 2 hit she is dead


Lady-J wrote:
mythic vital strike can net you over 2k damage if done right

No it can't. Mythic is bad, but it ain't that bad.

All Mythic Vital Strike does is multiply damage more completely.

If you hit for 2d6+55 +2d6 Element, +2d6 other Element - Yes Mythic Vital Strike adds in an extra set of multipliers because of the extra d6.

That isn't how it was intended to work, but yes, you can exploit it.

So in theory, you would (With Greater Vital Strike) roll:

8d6+220 +2d6 +2d6

That is hardly over 2k damage. Mythic has enough problems there is no need to constantly exaggerate how much damage is possible.


J4RH34D wrote:

"or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step"

That is very very broad strokes, and because Daze prevents all actions, and taking a 5 ft step is a type of action, she ignores Dazed.

It is probably not intended, but it does work that way.

No, it doesn't work that way. Not even a little. Daze prevents actions. It does not hinder movement, it does not do anything to affect 5-foot steps. It prevents actions entirely.

Celestial Grace only affects the movement restriction part of an effect or an effect that would make a normal 5-foot step impossible situationally, such as difficult terrain. It does not otherwise make her immune to the entire effect of the spell or situation. If she were somehow exhausted, she could move at normal speed instead of half, but she still could not run or charge and she would still have a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. If her wings were cut off, her Fly speed would be 0. That's her new normal fly speed, she doesn't get to fly at 150 with no actual ability to fly (her ability would still apply to her base speed for walking). Similarly, if she's prone, she has to stand up to make a 5-foot step, Celestial Grace does not make her immune to being prone, knocked prone, or going prone. Nor does it let her slide around with impunity when she is prone.

That's as counter-intuitive as the GM or a rules-lawyering player saying she can't use her own ability, because when she tries to take a 5-foot step, 'instead of moving 5 feet', she doesn't actually take a 5-foot step when she uses it, because it's no longer a 'real 5-foot step', it's been altered and replaced. So now her power fails to affect her.

Celestial Grace does not prevent effects or actions that stop her from moving, only ones that actually reduce her movement speed or would cause her normal 5-foot steps to not count as 5-foot steps, ie solid fog, damage from caltrops, or difficult terrain. If she's grappled, she can't move. If she's glued to the floor with a tanglefoot bag (not that she'd fail the Reflex save) she can't move, if she's stunned she can't move (again, she does also have constant freedom of movement which could prevent any or most of the effects that would completely immobilize or stop her, but that's an entirely separate issue from the topic). Celestial Grace doesn't make her immune to a confusion spell because there's a 25% chance she'll stand there babbling and so doesn't get to take an action (she is immune to it, but that's because she's immune to compulsion effects in their entirety).

Similarly, if she's underwater without a swim speed and she has to make Swim checks, she only moves at half her normal speed (unless you let her use her Fly speed in place of a Swim speed, but I don't see a rule for that). That's her 'normal' full movement based on her check (and again, she has freedom of movement so she wouldn't be restricted, but it has nothing to do with Celestial Grace). Similarly, she doesn't get to climb at her full 150 Fly speed with a typical check (why she would be climbing isn't important), nor even at her full 40 base speed with a normal Climb check, she would move at half speed. She doesn't get to Bull Rush someone her entire full movement on even the simplest success because otherwise her movement's slowed. She only gets to move as far as she can actually move as determined by her success on the check. That's not an effect reducing her movement speed, that's just her limitation at the time (like not being able to act at all when dazed).

Celestial Grace is of no help against being dazed and thus not getting an action. Even if daze did make you move at a slower speed or specifically prevent you from taking a 5-foot step in addition to you not having any actions, only that part of the effect would be prevented. She'd still get no action.


HWalsh wrote:


The Devs were smart. They wrote the power so that even if you find a loophole you still can't do it.

That’s neither smart nor a loophole it’s a clumsy catch all blanket that probably has unanticipated consequences.

Dazing an opponents isn’t sneaky players finding a loophole in the game, it’s using a basic combat strategy to restrict actions of the enemy.

But what’s more, people are over complicating things.

By 20/10 with Mythic Improved initiative your basic initiative with 10 Dex is 24 and you can chose to roll a 20. Butterfly can’t win initiative.

Now just pick any one method of many mythic methods to do easily over 1000 hit point damage.
Gee that was hard.

Or let’s say it starts stealthed.
Time stop
Set up mythic contingency daylight to trigger when deeper darkness is cast. That 1 of like... 5? Contingencies you chose
Cast daylight, butterfly casts deeper darkness, daylight goes of from contingency.
Butterfly can still move, 150ft away
At which point it dies.

Archery easily over 1000 damage
Dimension door + full attack easily over 1000 damage
Blast her with spells easily over 1000 damage
Not even close to an exhaustive list.

Or just beat it’s stealth, moment of prescience + Display of Wisdom + Cyclops helm + 20 Ranks + Eye of the eagle + Mythic Surge
That’s 85+1D12 before Wisdom of skill focus or class skills.
If butterfly gets a nat 20 she’s at 93

Give us a headband of wis and make a class skill and we’re at 91+1D12, swap class skill for skill focus and you’re at 94, both and it’s 97+1D12
Or just get Maximize surge.
85+12
91+12
94+12
97+12

So yeah.

There are a few lazy ways to beat the butterfly.


Pizza Lord wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:

"or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step"

That is very very broad strokes, and because Daze prevents all actions, and taking a 5 ft step is a type of action, she ignores Dazed.

It is probably not intended, but it does work that way.

No, it doesn't work that way. Not even a little. Daze prevents actions. It does not hinder movement, it does not do anything to affect 5-foot steps. It prevents actions entirely.

Celestial Grace only affects the movement restriction part of an effect or an effect that would make a normal 5-foot step impossible situationally, such as difficult terrain. It does not otherwise make her immune to the entire effect of the spell or situation. If she were somehow exhausted, she could move at normal speed instead of half, but she still could not run or charge and she would still have a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. If her wings were cut off, her Fly speed would be 0. That's her new normal fly speed, she doesn't get to fly at 150 with no actual ability to fly (her ability would still apply to her base speed for walking). Similarly, if she's prone, she has to stand up to make a 5-foot step, Celestial Grace does not make her immune to being prone, knocked prone, or going prone. Nor does it let her slide around with impunity when she is prone.

That's as counter-intuitive as the GM or a rules-lawyering player saying she can't use her own ability, because when she tries to take a 5-foot step, 'instead of moving 5 feet', she doesn't actually take a 5-foot step when she uses it, because it's no longer a 'real 5-foot step', it's been altered and replaced. So now her power fails to affect her.

Celestial Grace does not prevent effects or actions that stop her from moving, only ones that actually reduce her movement speed or would cause her normal 5-foot steps to not count as 5-foot steps, ie solid fog, damage from caltrops, or difficult terrain. If she's grappled, she can't move. If she's glued to the floor with a tanglefoot bag...

"She ignores any effect that would reduce her movement speed or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step."

"The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC."

Dazed says she can take no actions.
This prevents her from taking a 5ft step.
Thus she ignores it.

Sorry but the Geysermancer won't work here. Try a new tactic.


HWalsh wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
mythic vital strike can net you over 2k damage if done right

No it can't. Mythic is bad, but it ain't that bad.

All Mythic Vital Strike does is multiply damage more completely.

If you hit for 2d6+55 +2d6 Element, +2d6 other Element - Yes Mythic Vital Strike adds in an extra set of multipliers because of the extra d6.

That isn't how it was intended to work, but yes, you can exploit it.

So in theory, you would (With Greater Vital Strike) roll:

8d6+220 +2d6 +2d6

That is hardly over 2k damage. Mythic has enough problems there is no need to constantly exaggerate how much damage is possible.

I think Lady J was also making the basic assumption that foe biter was being used

16D6+440+4D6+4D6
Amazing initiative gives two standards
So the above times two.

Easily over 1000 damage. Not sure how Lady J reaches two thousand. Maybe assume crits?
I’m fairly sure you’re low balling potential damage pretty hard but I don’t know what I’d suggest. And can’t be bothered to work out a proper damage run for a 20/10 right now.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
mythic vital strike can net you over 2k damage if done right

No it can't. Mythic is bad, but it ain't that bad.

All Mythic Vital Strike does is multiply damage more completely.

If you hit for 2d6+55 +2d6 Element, +2d6 other Element - Yes Mythic Vital Strike adds in an extra set of multipliers because of the extra d6.

That isn't how it was intended to work, but yes, you can exploit it.

So in theory, you would (With Greater Vital Strike) roll:

8d6+220 +2d6 +2d6

That is hardly over 2k damage. Mythic has enough problems there is no need to constantly exaggerate how much damage is possible.

I think Lady J was also making the basic assumption that foe biter was being used

16D6+440+2D6+2D6
Amazing initiative gives two standards
So the above times two.

Easily over 1000 damage. Not sure how Lady J reaches two thousand. Maybe assume crits?
I’m fairly sure you’re low balling potential damage pretty hard but I don’t know what I’d suggest. And can’t be bothered to work out a proper damage run for a 20/10 right now.

Yeah you can land 2 standards and deal damage that way. That still isn't over 2000 damage.

(Though what the heck is "Foe Biter" as it doesn't pop up on the PFSRD or Nethys)

Even if you are pulling out 16d6+440+2D6+2d6 and you were doing that twice in a round that is barely enough to hit 1,000 in a round on average.

(1010 average if 2 shots of it hit.)

That also assumes you are getting to a base of +55 damage, which in and of itself isn't exactly easy to do.

20 Stat at level 1,
+5 from levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20
+10 from Mythic levels at tier 10
+5 from 5 back-to-back wish spells
+5 from a book

Gives you a 45 Stat, that is only a +17 throw on a 2 hander for +25

+5 weapon (+22)/(+30)

+18 from Mythic Power Attack (+40)/(+48)

And without going maybe Fighter, Sentinel, or something else to give more bonuses to damage you're still falling 15 (or 7) short of +55 this is about as min-maxed as you can get.


HWalsh wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:

"or prevent her from taking a 5-foot step"

That is very very broad strokes, and because Daze prevents all actions, and taking a 5 ft step is a type of action, she ignores Dazed.

It is probably not intended, but it does work that way.

death also prevents her from taking a 5 foot step does that also mean she is immune to death?

Actually, amusingly, the Death Condition doesn't actually stop characters from acting. That has been a joke for a very long time. As such, since Death doesn't stop her from taking actions, it simply moves her soul on... She's not immune to Death, because Death doesn't stop anyone from taking actions.

"The character’s hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."

Nowhere does it say they can't take actions.

However, "The character's soul leaves his body" would mean that the body no longer moves. So I guess her soul could still take a 5ft step.

But yes, as stated, you can't in any way stop Black Butterfly from being able to take a 5ft step and any power that you find that could manage it (daze, etc) is already hard coded as not being able to work.

The Devs were smart. They wrote the power so that even if you find a loophole you still can't do it.

She's an Outsider. Meaning, her soul cannot leave her body, they're one and the same


Renata Maclean wrote:
She's an Outsider. Meaning, her soul cannot leave her body, they're one and the same

Not technically. In this case it would send her soul to be judged by Pharasma. In either case her ability, or lack thereof, to take a 5ft step doesn't matter anymore.


HWalsh wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
mythic vital strike can net you over 2k damage if done right

No it can't. Mythic is bad, but it ain't that bad.

All Mythic Vital Strike does is multiply damage more completely.

If you hit for 2d6+55 +2d6 Element, +2d6 other Element - Yes Mythic Vital Strike adds in an extra set of multipliers because of the extra d6.

That isn't how it was intended to work, but yes, you can exploit it.

So in theory, you would (With Greater Vital Strike) roll:

8d6+220 +2d6 +2d6

That is hardly over 2k damage. Mythic has enough problems there is no need to constantly exaggerate how much damage is possible.

large butchering axe for 4d6 mythic enlarge person for 12d6 base damage impact for 16d6, greater vital strike for 64d6 so 384 damage max, 20 base str+5 from levels +6 from belt +6 from inherent bonus +12? from mythic at 49 str for a +14 modifier for 28 modifier for damage so 112 so up to +24 for weapon enchantments +144 for mythic power attack +36 for weapon specialization/mythic version, +16 for weapon training 716 damage so far x5 weapon so your 3580 damage then double that for foe biting weapon 7160 damage there are more modifiers but i really don't want to go and sift threw them all


5 people marked this as a favorite.

This whole thread keeps reminding me of why I’m glad we’re never getting stats for the Gods. It started off as “wow Black Butterfly is so powerful” and now we’re at “oh please, a properly built NPC could kill her.”


Lady-J wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
mythic vital strike can net you over 2k damage if done right

No it can't. Mythic is bad, but it ain't that bad.

All Mythic Vital Strike does is multiply damage more completely.

If you hit for 2d6+55 +2d6 Element, +2d6 other Element - Yes Mythic Vital Strike adds in an extra set of multipliers because of the extra d6.

That isn't how it was intended to work, but yes, you can exploit it.

So in theory, you would (With Greater Vital Strike) roll:

8d6+220 +2d6 +2d6

That is hardly over 2k damage. Mythic has enough problems there is no need to constantly exaggerate how much damage is possible.

large butchering axe for 4d6 mythic enlarge person for 12d6 base damage impact for 16d6, greater vital strike for 64d6 so 384 damage max, 20 base str+5 from levels +6 from belt +6 from inherent bonus +12? from mythic at 49 str for a +14 modifier for 28 modifier for damage so 112 so up to +24 for weapon enchantments +144 for mythic power attack +36 for weapon specialization/mythic version, +16 for weapon training 716 damage so far x5 weapon so your 3580 damage then double that for foe biting weapon 7160 damage there are more modifiers but i really don't want to go and sift threw them all

Butchering Axe 3d6 - Yes you could large butching axe for 4d6 - Mythic Enlarge person gets you to 6d6 not 12d6 read the chart on weapon sizes.

Impact increases the effective size by 1, which brings it to 6d8

After Mythic Enlarge 6d6 base damage, impact for 6d8, Mythic greater vital strike for 24d8 I already outlined the maximum possible strength bonus (+25 with a 2 hander) weapon specialization adds +2, Mythic Weapon Specialization adds +5, +5 weapon, +18 from Power Attack.

Foe-Biting I am assuming doubles your damage since Foe-Biting, Foe-Biter, Foe Bite, Foe Bit, isn't turning up anything on Nethys.

So...

24d8+1320

At maximum if Foe Bite doubles 48d8+2620

Of course, that is also taking advantage of a loophole with Mythic Vital Strike because clearly it was intended to double whenever rolling the weapon's damage dice, not for each die rolled, so most sensible GMs would lower that to the much more reasonable:

24d8+220

Again... Its these little weird exploits that break the game, rarely the game itself.


HWalsh wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
mythic vital strike can net you over 2k damage if done right

No it can't. Mythic is bad, but it ain't that bad.

All Mythic Vital Strike does is multiply damage more completely.

If you hit for 2d6+55 +2d6 Element, +2d6 other Element - Yes Mythic Vital Strike adds in an extra set of multipliers because of the extra d6.

That isn't how it was intended to work, but yes, you can exploit it.

So in theory, you would (With Greater Vital Strike) roll:

8d6+220 +2d6 +2d6

That is hardly over 2k damage. Mythic has enough problems there is no need to constantly exaggerate how much damage is possible.

large butchering axe for 4d6 mythic enlarge person for 12d6 base damage impact for 16d6, greater vital strike for 64d6 so 384 damage max, 20 base str+5 from levels +6 from belt +6 from inherent bonus +12? from mythic at 49 str for a +14 modifier for 28 modifier for damage so 112 so up to +24 for weapon enchantments +144 for mythic power attack +36 for weapon specialization/mythic version, +16 for weapon training 716 damage so far x5 weapon so your 3580 damage then double that for foe biting weapon 7160 damage there are more modifiers but i really don't want to go and sift threw them all

Butchering Axe 3d6 - Yes you could large butching axe for 4d6 - Mythic Enlarge person gets you to 6d6 not 12d6 read the chart on weapon sizes.

Impact increases the effective size by 1, which brings it to 6d8

After Mythic Enlarge 6d6 base damage, impact for 6d8, Mythic greater vital strike for 24d8 I already outlined the maximum possible strength bonus (+25 with a 2 hander) weapon specialization adds +2, Mythic Weapon Specialization adds +5, +5 weapon, +18 from Power Attack.

Foe-Biting I am assuming doubles your damage since Foe-Biting, Foe-Biter, Foe Bite, Foe Bit, isn't turning up anything on Nethys.

So...

24d8+1320

At maximum if Foe Bite doubles 48d8+2620

Of course, that is also taking advantage of a loophole with Mythic Vital...

3d6->4d6->6d6->8d6->12d6->16d6 is the damage die progresion

each size increase goes down the list 2 steps
1
1d2
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
1d10
2d6
2d8
3d6
3d8
4d6
4d8
6d6
6d8
8d6
8d8
12d6
12d8
16d6

also mythic vital strike has no loop hole or exploit it lets you get the things you normally get on a normal attack multiplied by the number of weapon damage roll by the vital strike chain so greater vital strike nets you 4x the normal modifiers because your rolling your weapon damage 4 times so 4xstr 4xweapon enchantment 4xfeat/weapon training damage, ect. then there is the ability that when you crit you "roll" max weapon damage combine it with ways to get garenteed crits and the fact that the weapon is now a x5 weapon due to fighter capstone and mythic improved critical you do massive damage


HWalsh wrote:


Yeah you can land 2 standards and deal damage that way. That still isn't over 2000 damage.

(Though what the heck is "Foe Biter" as it doesn't pop up on the PFSRD or Nethys)

Even if you are pulling out 16d6+440+2D6+2d6 and you were doing that twice in a round that is barely enough to hit 1,000 in a round on average.

(1010 average if 2 shots of it hit.)

You replied before I noticed my mistake it’s

16D6+440+4D6+4D6

And you’re not factoring in crits.

Quote:

That also assumes you are getting to a base of +55 damage, which in and of itself isn't exactly easy to do.

20 Stat at level 1,
+5 from levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20
+10 from Mythic levels at tier 10
+5 from 5 back-to-back wish spells
+5 from a book

Gives you a 45 Stat, that is only a +17 throw on a 2 hander for +25

+5 weapon (+22)/(+30)

+18 from Mythic Power Attack (+40)/(+48)

And without going maybe Fighter, Sentinel, or something else to give more bonuses to damage you're still falling 15 (or 7) short of...

Pretty sure books and wishes don’t stack, but you can get a further 2 from Mythic. From a universal path I forgot ten name of.

Mythic PA can do 18
Take a Barb cause it’s the only really full BAB I’m familiar with for making damage

20+5+5+6+12+8 (Level, wish, enhancement, Mythic, rage)
+5 furious greatsword

Str bonus to damage = 30+18 from power attack + 7 from the sword

2D6+55
Probably other things you could do and better classes to do it with. That’s just off the top of my head.
Fairly sure multiclassing puts this way higher as well.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

So it's come to this.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well this is a consequence of some people insisting that beating the butterfly can’t be done. Which is just naive.

I actually think the butterfly is great and has some nice abilities much more exciting than the empyreal lords from book 4 who were underwhelming.

Same goes for the Cr29 one whose name escapes me.

Really like some of the archfiends and horsemen from book 6 as well.

Book 6 did CR25-30 much better than book 4 did.


I was under the impression that the traditional way to get over 2000 damage with Mythic Vital Strike was to be a cave druid who wild shapes into a carnivorous crystal ooze for the 7d8 18-20 crit natural attack.

Alternatively, be a monk of the four winds and vital strike 3 times in a round should work.


I'm surprised I'm the first to mention Furious Finish as a way of cranking out more Vital Strike damage. After all, If you're a 20th level barb, you don't need anything special to rage cycle.


Maximised Augmented mythic disintegrate + Quickened augmented mythic disintegrate
With orc bloodline + blood havoc
+ Channel power
+ Rod of empower on both

960 (the maxed one) + 120D6 + 240 (quickened one) + 120D6+240 (combined empowered damage)

1440 + 840 ( average 240D6) = 2280

X1.5 for channel power.
=
3440 damage

I might be working out empower damage wrong... but it’s like... so high anyway I don’t care.


And with only lvl 20, no mythic?


I can’t believe I am the only person that noticed this.

Black Butterfly wrote:
She gains an additional +20 bonus on Stealth checks (+40 when immobile), which doesn’t stack with the bonuses from invisibility, and she can’t be outlined by spells like faerie fire or glitterdust.

The part about spells like faerie fire or glitterdust dose not say the spells don’t work on her. It says that she can’t be outlined to get the additional bonus on stealth checks.


Guys! Why have we not talked about Polymorph yet? D:

Polymorph wrote:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

Celestial Grace, Silence Between, and Voidsedge Bond are all extraordinary abilities and would get shut off if you just used Baleful Polymorph.

After that, simply ready a counterspell against her Dispel Magic each round.

Shes not too difficult to beat up after being turned into an pitiful, oversized chiwawa :/


Gobo Horde wrote:

...

After that, simply ready a counterspell against her Dispel Magic each round.
...

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but spell-like abilities can't be counterspelled (or used to counterspell).

Also, this thread isn't about killing Black Butterfly or dealing ungodly damage, it's about ways to mitigate, rule, and adjudicate how her Silence Between ability works and ways to deal with it (and the Celestial Grace and constant freedom of movement effects that would protect against those measures), which polymorph seems like it could do if it worked.


Well surely the way is Mythic contingencies setting up several daylights to be cast whenever deeper darkness is cast.
Or just to have a wacking great perception modifier?


Gobo Horde wrote:
Guys! Why have we not talked about Polymorph yet? D:

Did you miss the part where I showed how a character could take Black Butterfly out in turn one by hitting her with a DC 43 persistent piercing tenebrous baleful polymorph? All with no mythic ranks and twenty levels in the adept NPC class.

And her dispel magic won't be an issue. Take a look at the baleful polymorph text.

Baleful Polymorph wrote:
the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own


Baleful Polymorph would need to beat her DC 39 SR.

While I assume you have some way to get a +38 CL or something to Pierce SR given the general behavior and posts of people in this thread.

20 from caster level
Probably +12-18 from other sources.


The only problem with Baleful Polymorph is you're only getting one shot. If it doesn't work, you lose.

I can tell you. I know how I'd run her, and your first Baleful Polymorph would fail nearly 100% of the time.

She'd have a near 0% chance to fail on anything other than a 1.


HWalsh wrote:

The only problem with Baleful Polymorph is you're only getting one shot. If it doesn't work, you lose.

I can tell you. I know how I'd run her, and your first Baleful Polymorph would fail nearly 100% of the time.

She'd have a near 0% chance to fail on anything other than a 1.

Remember she's got a +25 per day to any save or will she wants. A 24+ hr duration 1/day moment of prescience.


  • -5 SR from piercing
  • +1 CL from tenebrous
  • +5 vs. SR from dweomer's essence
  • +1 altar of nethys
  • +1 oragne prism

There's probably more.


Haywire build generator wrote:
There's probably more.

Don't forget that Tenebrous and Piercing get doubled by Spell Perfection!

HWalsh wrote:

The only problem with Baleful Polymorph is you're only getting one shot. If it doesn't work, you lose.

I can tell you. I know how I'd run her, and your first Baleful Polymorph would fail nearly 100% of the time.

She'd have a near 0% chance to fail on anything other than a 1.

She needs a 17 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Fort save, and a 15 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Will save. If she succeeds on either, Persistent Spell makes her roll again. If she succeeds on that too, she just gets hit with the exact same thing all over again via a quicken metamagic rod.


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Also all of the "Uber builds" assume she's fighting 1 on 1, while they know all of her stats in-character to plan the perfect attack, that they have all of their spells, that they didn't fight through her realm to reach her, that she let them fully rest before attacking, and it's the problem with all the shroddinger wizard situations.

In order to get to her you've fought through her whole army and breached her realm. She's not stupid. She's not going to fight you if she thinks you can just paste her.

If I were running her she'd be popping in and out of numerous battles en route. Disrupting PCs at the worst possible moments.

I've played and run AD&D you'd be facing Black Dragon tactics the whole way.

You'd be in a CR 26 encounter, about to cast a spell, when all of a sudden, "Your spell is interrupted as something sharp slams into your back."

Black Butterfly is there, like 150 feet away, across difficult terrain. You have one round before she does something to aid the Angels you're fighting then is gone again.

She harries you the whole way, you never know when she's around. If she hasn't managed to weaken you before you reach her, when you do reach her, she bails.

She's an Empyreal Lord, not an idiot.

Hell you'd be dealing with her deeper darkness CONSTANTLY in fights not against her.

She'd be there, hidden, cast a deeper darkness while you're fighting someone else, drop an AM field, or a Mage's Disjunction then 5ft step and vanish.

She's not a video game end boss coded to sit and wait. You're about to kill a minion? Nope! She appears from nowhere, drops a quickened heal, slaps one of you with a spell of her choice, then vanishes before any of you can act.


Avoron wrote:
Haywire build generator wrote:
There's probably more.

Don't forget that Tenebrous and Piercing get doubled by Spell Perfection!

HWalsh wrote:

The only problem with Baleful Polymorph is you're only getting one shot. If it doesn't work, you lose.

I can tell you. I know how I'd run her, and your first Baleful Polymorph would fail nearly 100% of the time.

She'd have a near 0% chance to fail on anything other than a 1.

She needs a 17 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Fort save, and a 15 or higher to succeed on a DC 43 Will save. If she succeeds on either, Persistent Spell makes her roll again. If she succeeds on that too, she just gets hit with the exact same thing all over again via a quicken metamagic rod.

Yeah, not in a realistic scenario. You're not going to walk in and just nuke her down. She's going to get the first shot and so you'll be working against the clock.

Hell, if people want to make Level 20 ML 5 characters and run through a realistic full dungeon for such a party trying to reach and kill her I'll run it. Be ready to grind through 4-5 CAR 26-27 encounters before you reach her, against her forces, with her harrying you the whole way. No chance of a full rest before you take her on and her minions taking out your magical items along the way though.

You might win, but it won't be easy.

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