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My revelations about Solarians


Starfinder General Discussion

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I started with the assumption, given by you, that you had 2 of the 4 guys affected in round 1, then 1 of those 2 affected in round 2, and then went to round 3. That one guy has a 50% chance to fail in round 3. And a 25% chance to fail twice in a row, making it 25% in round 4.

If we change the starting goal post, and instead of having 1 of the four guys affected in round 3, then yes, the chance of a single individual to miss 4 in a row is 6.25%. But we started with 4 guys, thus 6.25% chance each to miss 4 in a row.


HWalsh wrote:

You know what.

I don't care anymore. Do what you want with the Solarian. It doesn't matter.

Fair enough. Have a nice day :)


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

He is right, it is bad tactics to expect an intelligent opponent to stay under the effect of the Radiation for very long. That was one of the reasons I mentioned a friendly Mystic hitting one of the ones who failed with Mind Thrust, increase the chances of one going down.

Until we know if Armor (or for that matter Radiation Shield upgrade) protect against the revelation, it is difficult to say how useful it is. I don’t think it is as bad when used against groups as others portray. I wouldn’t waste the action against a single opponent.


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It seems to me that the point of Radiation is that its effects move with you as long as you stay in photon mode. The power is not designed for remaining stationary and waiting for it to affect people; if you're engaged with an opponent that you're trying to get an extra edge against, you would obviously want to keep after them as they tried to evade Radiation (and take advantage of the resulting attacks of opportunity this would need once you have the ability working at a ten foot radius).

Like, that's a pretty basic tactical point, it would seem to me. And yet we have how many thousands of words from one party to the thread on how Radiation is useless because people could just step away from it? Why is that a thing?

This is what baffles me about these threads, that some people come to them with an agenda that seems curiously front-loaded to deny the most basic intelligent uses and strengths of Solarian powers. And that's before we even get into mechanically false MAD claims, apples-to-oranges comparisons to class abilities and spells with different focuses and parameters and so on. The more I see of it, the more it moves me away from the "Solarians need fixing" view.


CeeJay wrote:

It seems to me that the point of Radiation is that its effects move with you as long as you stay in photon mode. The power is not designed for remaining stationary and waiting for it to affect people; if you're engaged with an opponent that you're trying to get an extra edge against, you would obviously want to keep after them as they tried to evade Radiation (and take advantage of the resulting attacks of opportunity this would need once you have the ability working at a ten foot radius).

Like, that's a pretty basic tactical point, it would seem to me. And yet we have how many thousands of words from one party to the thread on how Radiation is useless because people could just step away from it? Why is that a thing?

This is what baffles me about these threads, that some people come to them with an agenda that seems curiously front-loaded to deny the most basic intelligent uses and strengths of Solarian powers. And that's before we even get into mechanically false MAD claims, apples-to-oranges comparisons to class abilities and spells with different focuses and parameters and so on. The more I see of it, the more it moves me away from the "Solarians need fixing" view.

The reason why stepping away from it being an issue is, yes, it moves with you. They move away from you, the effects end instantly, you move up to them, they get another save.

It is only a (usually very short) matter of time before they're uneffected... Even if they care about the -2.


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So basically they have a choice of hanging in and hoping they make their saving throw, or moving away and hoping they make subsequent saving throws -- exposing themselves to attacks of opportunity if the power is attuned -- or just sucking it up and hoping that HP loss and Fort save penalties are no big deal, over and above the automatic HP hit that comes from initial exposure whether or not they make their save. (For that matter, since each subsequent exposure is being counted as a fresh instance, this should mean they are automatically taking HP damage every time you close with them again thereafter.)

But yes, it's a completely useless power.

(I mean, I'm sorry to resort to sarcasm but you have to realise there's a certain level of convolution and denial that makes it pretty hard to resist.)

Scarab Sages

Well, I’ve lost control of this thread.


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Sorry man. I guess it's pretty clear that I think the entire premise of this thread is questionable and that I'm getting firmer in that view. That said, I'll get out of your way.

I do need to thank @Kudaku for posting that general Solarian guide doc. Pretty cool.


CeeJay wrote:

So basically they have a choice of hanging in and hoping they make their saving throw, or moving away and hoping they make subsequent saving throws -- exposing themselves to attacks of opportunity if the power is attuned -- or just sucking it up and hoping that HP loss and Fort save penalties are no big deal, over and above the automatic HP hit that comes from initial exposure whether or not they make their save. (For that matter, since each subsequent exposure is being counted as a fresh instance, this should mean they are automatically taking HP damage every time you close with them again thereafter.)

But yes, it's a completely useless power.

(I mean, I'm sorry to resort to sarcasm but you have to realise there's a certain level of convolution and denial that makes it pretty hard to resist.)

Not really... Like I said... You can do what you want. Please. Be my guest. Make a Solarian, try to be a caster, use this power over any of the really really good ones.

I won't try to change your mind. :)

You can have fun with that. When you realize it isn't very good. Meh. I warned you.


HWalsh wrote:
Not really... Like I said... You can do what you want. Please. Be my guest. Make a Solarian, try to be a caster . . .

"...and don't come crying to me!"

Terribly magnanimous of you, I'm sure. :lol:

But actually the general guide guy's advice about the Radiation power (and many other things) looks useful and realistic. Since I indirectly have you to thank for that having been posted: thank you!


CeeJay wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Not really... Like I said... You can do what you want. Please. Be my guest. Make a Solarian, try to be a caster . . .

"...and don't come crying to me!"

Terribly magnanimous of you, I'm sure. :lol:

But actually the general guide guy's advice about the Radiation power (and many other things) looks useful and realistic. Since I indirectly have you to thank for that having been posted: thank you!

I think the general Solarian guide over-estimates its usefulness. I'm glad you think it is useful, I hope it is for you, but I have seen it not

Example:
Don't try to use it in the quest "Incident at Absolom Station"

Why?
Nearly every single enemy either has armor, so are immune, or they are just flat out immune. I think all but 2 enemies have immunity to radiation and/or poison. You can hit the plants. Just about everything else is completely immune.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:


Old Kung-fu Solarian

Korasha Lashunta (Priest)
Str: 16, Dex:14 Con:10, Int:10, Wis:9, Chr: 14

So if I start with armor, then I get a pair of Bone Cestuses, and use that for my 'unarmed strikes.' +4 to hit for 1d6+3 at first level.

My armor would be 14 or 15 at level 1

If I went weapon, then I'd have some sort of aura that surrounds me, that empowers my 'unarmed strikes.' Damage would be the same at first level though I wouldn't have to buy a weapon) and my armor would be one less.

Sent you a private. These numbers seem off and that's what I have been afraid of. If your numbers aren't right the class would look weak.


VampByDay wrote:
Well, I’ve lost control of this thread.

Then let's get it back on track together! :)

VampByDay wrote:

To answer questions, I say the iconic Solarian is supposed to be lightly armored because A) They don't start off with heavy armor, B) their armor version does not work with heavy armor, and C) Altronus (the iconic Solarian) doesn't wear heavy armor.

Secondly: for "I may have gotten a few of the details wrong" I meant "I may have not allocated stats correctly when I was saying how Melee solarians should be made."

Thirdly: Okay if I got my druthers to play a solarian character, I'd go one of two ways: I could go either armor or weapon.

Old Kung-fu Solarian

Korasha Lashunta (Priest)
Str: 16, Dex:14 Con:10, Int:10, Wis:9, Chr: 14

So if I start with armor, then I get a pair of Bone Cestuses, and use that for my 'unarmed strikes.' +4 to hit for 1d6+3 at first level.

My armor would be 14 or 15 at level 1

If I went weapon, then I'd have some sort of aura that surrounds me, that empowers my 'unarmed strikes.' Damage would be the same at first level though I wouldn't have to buy a weapon) and my armor would be one less.

Looking at my general build, my AC would be roughly on par with the Iconic Solarian Altronus (maybe one better, or 2 if i was the armor solarian) So by level 8 I'd have an EAC of 21/22/23, and a KAC of 22/23/24. Let's just compare that to the other frontliner, Obozaya, who has an EAC of 26, and a KAC of 29, that's a difference of between 3 and 5 AC. She would get hit a lot less than me.

In fact, looking at the combatant array from the back of alien archives, the primary attack of a combatant should be +21. That means enemies would have to roll a 1 to miss my EAC, and at best a 2 to miss my KAC. And while Obozaya's not leagues better, a two at least misses her EAC, and a 7 misses her KAC. You simply can't frontline if you are being hit with EVERY SINGLE ATTACK.

To be honest, as a melee solarian I agree with Hwalsh that you're better off picking up heavy armor proficiency - going into melee in light armor means you want high Strength, high dexterity and a decent charisma so you're spreading yourself a little thin - heavy armor helps a lot at low levels before the level up system smooths out your ability scores.

Using Obozaya as a baseline can be a little misleading since she's a Vesk (+1 to all ACs) and has picked up a gear boost to improve her kinetic AC. Basically Obozaya is actually paying attention to her AC, Altronus seems to be going out of his way to have the worst AC possible.

All that having been said, let's see what we can do!

Level 8 Korasha Lashunta solarian.
Our baseline dex is going to be 14-16, we'll lowball it and go with 14. We'll bump it up by +2 on level 5, and we'll put our secondary ability improvement in dex for another +2. That puts us at 18 dex.

We'll grab solarian armor for a +1/+1, which goes up to +2/+2 on level 10.

We'll wear Kasatha Microcord III (level 8 armor) since that's the one with the lowest max dex modifier and the highest AC boost at level 8. We get a -1 ACP penalty but we can manage that.

That puts us at: 10 +4 (dex) +1 (solarian) + 9/+11 (Microcord)
EAC: 24
KAC: 26

For comparison Obozaya is wearing Vesk Overplate II. She has a dex modifier of +4, the armor grants her +13/+15 and being Vesk brings an additional +1. Finally she has a +1 insight bonus to kinetic AC from the Armored Advantage gear boost.

The formula goes 10 +2 (max dex for overplate II) +13/+15 (Overplate) +1/+1 Vesk +0/+1 Armored Advantage
EAC: 26
KAC: 29

So at the moment we're 3-6 AC points ahead of Altronus, and 2-3 points behind Obozaya. That's not ideal, but not critical either.

Of course, this is an experiment performed in a vacuum. Outside of the lab, the best way to fix this problem is to throw credits at it! We can go Solarian Weapon and use the WBL saved by not upgrading our melee weapon to instead invest in better armor. We're level 8, meaning we have access to level 10 armor. White carbon skin would do wonders for our AC, bringing us up to (assuming Solar Weapon) 26 EAC/28 KAC.

Finally, it's important to also consider the downsides of wearing heavy armor. Obozaya is lugging around 3 bulk armor, has to deal with an armor check penalty of -3, and is penalized with a hefty -10 ft speed penalty.

Slightly off-topic rant about Altronus:

While running this comparison I really looked at Altronus for the first time. I knew some people joke that he's the new Harsk but wow, he really is an underwhelming solarian. He has Spring Attack but has no unwieldy weapon, he has a surprisingly high-end kinetic (>__<) pistol but no throwing weapons, he's a kasatha but shows no interest in using his extra arms, and he's wearing very bad armor for his level and build. His level 8 statblock also has math and typing mistakes - Corona calls out Proton Mode (What?) and his Plasma Sheath damage is listed at 2 on level 8. Maybe Altronus was built before the solarian class concept was finalized?


JetSetRadio wrote:
VampByDay wrote:


Old Kung-fu Solarian

Korasha Lashunta (Priest)
Str: 16, Dex:14 Con:10, Int:10, Wis:9, Chr: 14

So if I start with armor, then I get a pair of Bone Cestuses, and use that for my 'unarmed strikes.' +4 to hit for 1d6+3 at first level.

My armor would be 14 or 15 at level 1

If I went weapon, then I'd have some sort of aura that surrounds me, that empowers my 'unarmed strikes.' Damage would be the same at first level though I wouldn't have to buy a weapon) and my armor would be one less.

Sent you a private. These numbers seem off and that's what I have been afraid of. If your numbers aren't right the class would look weak.

I'd have to look up his Cestus but...

His Ability scores are right.

14 or 15 AC at level 1 looks right, Second Skin +1/+2

13/14 with dex, 14/15 with Solar Armor.


HWalsh wrote:

I think the general Solarian guide over-estimates its usefulness. I'm glad you think it is useful, I hope it is for you, but I have seen it not

Example:
Don't try to use it in the quest "Incident at Absolom Station"

Why?
Nearly every single enemy either has armor, so are immune, or they are just flat out immune. I think all but 2 enemies have immunity to radiation and/or poison. You can hit the plants. Just about everything else is completely immune.

I totally agree, if armor makes you immune, it is a generally bad power. My generic guide says as much under the rating for it.

However, I do highly suggest that anyone playing a Solarian sit down and talk with their GM about how the various revelations work in that campaign. There is honest confusion at game tables on how this power works, and until there's a FAQ, there will continue to be questions.

If its just a power that makes nearby enemies sickened even if they are wearing armor, great. If armor does make you immune, then it must be a radiation/poison effect. Does it still use Solarian save DCs? If so then dealing Charisma + level/2 damage to everyone who isn't immune (even on a successful save) and moving them down the Constitution poison track if they fail the save might have some niche uses. Another valid question to ask your GM is does everyone walk around with their environmental seals up 100% of the time?

Kudaku wrote:
Using Obozaya as a baseline can be a little misleading since she's a Vesk (+1 to all ACs) and has picked up a gear boost to improve her kinetic AC. Basically Obozaya is actually paying attention to her AC, Altronus seems to be going out of his way to have the worst AC possible.

You shouldn't be comparing most level 8 builds against Obozaya because Obozaya is cheating in her own favor at level 8. Note her equipment doesn't list augmentations, while Altronus does, and yet she somehow has Str 18/Dex 18/Con 15/Int 10/Wis 10/Cha 12. She added +2 to five stats instead of 4 at level 5. 10 points for 1st, 8 points for leveling up, 2 for race, 1 for theme = 21 points, she has 23.

If you include a +2 augmentation cost which isn't listed, Obozaya's wealth comes to about 34,200. Altronus' wealth comes to 32,500. She literally has spent about 1,700 more credits than Altronus, a difference which is enough to upgrade his armor from level 7 to level 8. She's also 1,200 credits over the 33,000 credit wealth by level guidelines.

In any case, as you note, you don't need Obozaya's AC to be able to front line. All the non-Obozaya pregens have KACs between 21 and 25. Base Dex 14 + 2 level up + 2 upgrade = 18, plus Solar armor, plus armor at your level is a reasonable 26 KAC at level 8, higher than all the pregens except Obozaya.

If people want to play a light armored, front-line melee specialist, just try it. Take Solar armor, grab a lightsaber Plasma sword, and just play it without worrying your AC is 2 below theoretical maximum. I'm playing such a character in SFS. I've chosen equipment and powers to emphasize mobility, and it works fine. You do plenty of damage, and survivability is not a problem with reasonable play.

The game isn't tuned so tightly that you need someone in the group with the theoretical maximum AC (which is a Vesk Guard Soldier 3/ Solar Armor Solarian 17 with 28 Dex, Armored Advantage, Gravity Shield and Specialist Hardlight series armor with KAC 46). I mean, even if such a character was played, the enemies would just shoot their easier to hit allies. :)


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HWalsh wrote:
Nearly every single enemy either has armor, so are immune, or they are just flat out immune.

Funnily enough, the general guide says "don't take Radiation in a situation where the GM says armour makes enemies immune to the power."

Maybe you're familiar with an earlier version of the document where that hadn't come up yet? I dunno.

It sounds suspiciously to me like you're a victim of bad GM calls, not a bad class. Or more maximally, as if the class is sometimes a victim of unclear rules-writing. From where I'm sitting, none of the Solarian powers are literally the stellar phenomena they're inspired by; they're supernatural abilities modelled on them.

So for example, Black Hole does not create actual black holes. Supernova is not the literal equivalent (however miniaturised) of its namesake or it would simply obliterate everything nearby. And Radiation is quite obviously not literal radiation because if it was, "a sickened creature [recovering] as soon as it moves out of your aura" would not be possible. (Or to put it another way, if one is making something impossible for the normal radiation rules a part of the power's weaknesses, demanding they apply in the most literal sense to its potential utility seems unreasonable.)

What the general guide actually says about it is "talk to your GM before you take this power." And that seems like good and genuinely informed advice that takes the various possibilities into account to me.


While I disagree specifically about how strong (or weak as it were) HWalsh finds the Solarian, I think there are some real points to be brought up about its design and how easy it is to ignore big chunks of the class' core features.

Even if you think the class is amazing it should send up some red flags when one of the most standard (and arguably one of the most well optimized) builds flat out ignores stellar manifestation, half of stellar mode and doesn't really care all that much about the class' key attribute. Or more than a small handful of revelations really. The game all but encourages you to build a Solarian that avoids being an actual Solarian and that feels wrong.

Oh and it really should have 6+int skill points per level, too.

Hiruma Kai wrote:
If armor does make you immune, then it must be a radiation/poison effect. Does it still use Solarian save DCs? If so then dealing Charisma + level/2 damage to everyone who isn't immune

Well, the damage is there regardless. It being a poison effect is really the only unambiguous thing about it. The question is just whether or not it counts as a radiation effect and if so what level of radiation it applies.


(I am totally that guy who says he's leaving the thread fifty times and then keeps replying. Sorry all. I'm going out soon, if it's any consolation. :))

Squiggit wrote:
While I disagree specifically about how strong (or weak as it were) HWalsh finds the Solarian, I think there are some real points to be brought up about its design and how easy it is to ignore big chunks of the class' core features.

Everything I've seen hints to me that the Solarian is a class that mostly frustrates people who are obsessed with "optimisation" (like the "one true build" business which I'm guessing you to be referring to as "one of the most standard" builds). There's a difference between a class functioning well as a design package and a class statistically outperforming every specialist class at their own specialities, which is what some people seem to want most from the Solarian; they're upset that it doesn't do more melee damage than soldiers, that it doesn't do bigger spellcasting numbers than spellcasters and so on, most of which complaints seem to miss the point or to be about context-free comparison of often-dissimilar things. This thread is testament to why I distrust all those habits.

Beyond that I have yet to see any point in "ignoring" big chunks of the class' core features. I can see there being some powers that are more useful than others, although again I'm finding myself disinclined to take "optimisers'" word about which is supposed to be which. About the most potentially-legit issue I've seen raised with the Solarian design in general is that it doesn't seem to make sense lore-wise for CHA to be their key stat (I get why it is what it is but I also understand the complaint).


CeeJay wrote:
There's a difference between a class functioning well as a design package and a class statistically outperforming every specialist class at their own specialities, which is what some people seem to want most from the Solarian

I don't really see the point in arguing in such bad faith like this. Literally no one in this thread has said anything of the sort. If you think the Solarian is fine as is, that's fine. But you can make that argument without having to put words in the mouth of people who disagree with you.


Squiggit wrote:
CeeJay wrote:
There's a difference between a class functioning well as a design package and a class statistically outperforming every specialist class at their own specialities, which is what some people seem to want most from the Solarian
I don't really see the point in arguing in such bad faith like this.

"Bad faith"? Almost all of the posts in this thread and others like it consist either of compaints about the Solarian's meleee damage -- as compared directly with soldiers (not so prevalent in this particular thread but I'm sure you've seen it) -- or spell-like abilities being compared directly with spells. I don't think I'm remotely engaged in some kind of stretch, there.


I've read the Solarian class maybe three times. I see no problem with it story wise. It's a bit of surprise really, I was expecting something like a jedi when I first heard of it. It's not a jedi, just someone who specializes in the abilities of a star.

Granted the class isn't based on the Electric Universe theory, which is a shame, but based on relativity physics. I was thinking on how to retool the class to reflect the EU, instead of Relativity.

As for the damaging capabilities of the Solarian, I'm surprised that everyone thinks that the class is wrong somehow. If you don't like the class as is, you can homebrew a different version and put it up on the forums. You can produce a different version of the Solarian that fixes all the perceived problems, and see if people like it. It's not like the forums don't have a place for homebrews. It does.


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*cough* Even if armor makes you immune, Radiation is still useful if you spend any time fighting non-armored opponents. Which should include. . . well, all kinds of monsters and animals. Which has the added benefit of them being much less likely to effectively avoid the radiation zone.


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A solarian is a good class in the hands of a crafty and intelligent player.


Metaphysician wrote:
*cough* Even if armor makes you immune, Radiation is still useful if you spend any time fighting non-armored opponents. Which should include. . . well, all kinds of monsters and animals. Which has the added benefit of them being much less likely to effectively avoid the radiation zone.

Like I said, go look at the APs.

There are exactly 2 enemies in Incident at Absolom Station that aren't in armor, or outright immune to radiation and/or poison effects.

That power would be much more stomachable if it didn't have, "If you save you're immune for 24 hrs."


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I like the Solarian class but I HATE how some of the Solarian Revelations are phrased. As is, I can argue for and against a number of different interpretations for the different Solarian Revelations. Of which, Radiation is the biggest offender.


Hiruma Kai wrote:
You shouldn't be comparing most level 8 builds against Obozaya because Obozaya is cheating in her own favor at level 8.

Damn, I missed that. Nice catch!

Liberty's Edge

In fairness to Obozaya she's not cheating in a way that usually matters. You can make her identically but with Cha 10 and she's a legal build. This gives her -1 Intimidate and no other changes.

Not to say they shouldn't fix her, but saying comparing Altronus to her isn't fair because she's cheating and thus more powerful is only correct in the most technical sense. Comparing their combat abilities is totally a fair thing to do.


HWalsh wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:
*cough* Even if armor makes you immune, Radiation is still useful if you spend any time fighting non-armored opponents. Which should include. . . well, all kinds of monsters and animals. Which has the added benefit of them being much less likely to effectively avoid the radiation zone.

Like I said, go look at the APs.

There are exactly 2 enemies in Incident at Absolom Station that aren't in armor, or outright immune to radiation and/or poison effects.

That power would be much more stomachable if it didn't have, "If you save you're immune for 24 hrs."

N=1, or I suppose technically 3, is not a useful sample. Especially when its all from one single AP, and thus tied together in terms of theme and focus.


Squiggit wrote:
While I disagree specifically about how strong (or weak as it were) HWalsh finds the Solarian,[etc.]

I'm rethinking how I responded to this post. Looking back at it: you were right. I was needlessly being a dick. It's possible to disagree with people about the Solarian without gratuitously impugning their motives. Apologies to the affected parties, HWalsh included, and please enjoy the f*** out of your Homebrew Solarians. I'll be playing mine RAW but I do get you.


CeeJay wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
While I disagree specifically about how strong (or weak as it were) HWalsh finds the Solarian,[etc.]
I'm rethinking how I responded to this post. Looking back at it: you were right. I was needlessly being a dick. It's possible to disagree with people about the Solarian without gratuitously impugning their motives. Apologies to the affected parties, HWalsh included, and please enjoy the f*** out of your Homebrew Solarians. I'll be playing mine RAW but I do get you.

For the record I *do* play mine RAW.

The homebrewed alterations are for my players, not for me. I *do* enjoy my RAW Solarian, but enjoying something doesn't mean that the mechanical issues with the class don't exist. Though you seem to overvalue some of the revelations, the ones that are problematic (see: Radiation) are problematic because of a combination of poor wording and expected makeup.

I play my RAW Solarian understanding how the powers work and chose a path that minimizes the weaknesses of the class so that I don't run into them.

I don't run into issues with Radiation or Black Hole because I don't take them.

I don't run into problems with a Starship Combat skill, because I planned around it.

I don't run into the discrepancy in Saves because I knew it was there going in and was able to plot my feats accordingly to stop it from becoming a problem.

I have taken this class apart, put it back together, built over two dozen optimized to semi-optimized builds, ran the numbers, ran the percentages, then recalculated everything once Alien Archive came out. There is virtually nothing, at the moment, about this class and its interactions I don't know. (Granted we only have two books, so this isn't exactly a feat of excessive skill.)

As far as Radiation/Poison issue goes, in Starfinder it is a big problem for the power.

In addition to the confusing issue of what it actually does (some people argue that it should do damage because it is a poison effect and poison does damage in Starfinder by default) and the fact that we aren't sure if Armor does stop it, but then there is the fact between immunities to Radiation and/or Poison in the book that becomes the most common immunity in the game.

Add all of that together and a power that (unless it does do damage) only gives a -2 to a target, a low percentage of the time, that can't be reapplied, that may or may not do damage, that may or may not work on armored targets, that doesn't work on the majority of non-armored enemies in the game make it simply a bad choice for players to take unless they are just trying to fill out a slot to balance their Photon/Graviton.

It is the same issue with Black Hole... Black Hole is universally mocked by even the General Solarian Guide and it tends to err on the side of optimism (in my opinion) because it was poorly designed and worded.

Which seems to be the biggest problem with the class...

There are so many instances of just poor wording, of not explaining how something is supposed to work, that you end up with many powers sitting in a nebulous void.

Take "Defy Gravity" for example. 9/10 players think that once you get the higher level version of it, you can fly as long as you keep moving round to round. That isn't how it works though. If you take any action other than movement, such as attack, then you fall. This makes it much less useful for melee, for example, who are much better off getting a jet pack.

Defy Gravity isn't a Jet Pack, it is an upgraded version of Jump Jets, and if you go in thinking that it is going to be a Jet Pack then you'll be disappointed.

What this does do, however, is push players toward the more clearly worded and defined abilities. Then there is a reliability issue.

If you, by level 4, only get 2 revelations (of your choosing) and you are going melee...

Why would you pass over Stellar Rush? Like, ever.

Stellar Rush lets you charge as a standard action. Not only does this allow you to move twice your move and attack, potentially allowing you to move up to three times your movement, but it also frees up your movement action.

That is a huge deal in terms of action economy.

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you have 2 players who are both melee:

Player 1 - Level 2 Chooses Stellar Rush.
Player 2 - Level 2 Chooses Radiation.

Radiation might work, depending on how the GM rules it, it might not, it may do damage, it may not, depending on how the GM rules it, and depending on the enemies the GM chooses to use it may, or may not, work on them, and it may or may not work through armor.

For me... That is too many things I don't know... However let us assume that the stars align and allows this power to hit multiple enemies all of the time, that it can be turned on as a Standard Action and he can move around and keep multiple people in range so it has an effect and that it works more than 50% of the time.

That is a a LOT of "ifs" mind you.

He may see a great value out of it, most commonly in the case of defense, as Radiation mostly adds a simulated +2 to the Solarian's AC when in melee if the target is effected. In a game where enemies have such high to-hits this could be noticeable.

Player 1, on the other hand gets his charge, which works 100% of the time. What you see is what you get. No frills no baggage, it does what it does.

-----

Level 4: Now, for the sake of argument, let us assume that (in this case) they don't unbalance their revelations. So this is a graviton power they are getting. It isn't super important to this.

The player who chose Stellar Rush has a number of options available that he can combo. He can choose Dark Matter, as he doesn't need his move action because he can standard action charge. He could choose gravity boost because it is usable without needing to worry about action economy. He has options. He can even combo it with gravity anchor and he's still able to attack, and effectively move, even when using his move action.

The player who didn't choose Stellar Rush has just as many options, but his ability to activate and employ them simultaneously is hampered. He can move and radiation targets. He can activate Dark Matter, then Radiation, but he can't move. He's got issues that he has to try to work out and he's juggling them.

-----

Level 6: This is where things get kind of hinky. The Radiation player is already behind on the action economy. At this level they have many options, but how best to use them is difficult.

Plasma Sheath is an option from the earlier levels, but it uses a move action, so it could be activated, then the person could turn on radiation, and that would be that for his turn, likely not accomplishing much. The stellar rush player can turn on plasma sheath as a move action, then charge as a standard action meaning he can get both of these going on the first round.

Corona is an option, but that also means that the Radiation user wouldn't be able to actually attack until the 3rd round of combat. The Stellar Rush user would be able to attack in round 2.

Blazing Orbit is an option, but it eats your move action, requires you to move, and does very small damage. Though the concealment it grants gives you an advantage for escaping melee range AoO's.

-----

And this just keeps going. With a class like the Solarian action economy is extremely important. Until level 16 dropping out of attunement (IE using some of your best stuff) kills all of your built up powers, meaning that it takes that much longer to get them back up and running. You want as much synergy as you can to get back in the game as fast as you can.

Using the basic Plasma Sheath/Stellar Rush combo right after a Supernova allows you to attack and start fighting immediately.

Using Radiation, or any number of other standard use powers, even something like Flare which only works for one target for one round, are usually a waste of action especially if you are going to drop it so soon after.

So it comes down to, what is your priority. If you are a melee character that priority is to attack in melee. If you are a ranged character that priority is to attack from range. If you are a support character, then your priority is to support, and that is sort of something Solarians can do... It takes a long time though to get enough powers to do it...

And yes... I do have a Solarian build that can do it. It uses Flare to blind, Gravity Hold to stop people from moving, Crush to Stun, Hypnotic Glow to Charm, etc etc...

The downside to the build is that you are a 1 trick pony until level 4, then you are a 2 trick pony. If you can suck it up for 8 levels you will get a pretty interesting toolbox, but do you really want to have a character who's only option for 2 whole levels is:

"I can blind a target once a round, but only once per target."

-----

So it isn't so much an issue of "Solarians Suck" which nobody has said. It is "Certain Options are Bad Ones." Which anyone who has played this class can see...

Especially with regards to Black Hole which is just terrible.

-----

Note:
An amusing use of Blazing Orbit, by the way, is to circle an enemy that isn't melee compatible (IE no ability to AoE) trapping them on the inside of a ring of fire with you to stop retreating without damage. The damage is really low, so this isn't viable for long, but it is funny.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
HWalsh wrote:


For me... That is too many things I don't know... However let us assume that the stars align and allows this power to hit multiple enemies all of the time, that it can be turned on as a Standard Action and he can move around and keep multiple people in range so it has an effect and that it works more than 50% of the time.

That is a a LOT of "ifs" mind you.

He may see a great value out of it, most commonly in the case of defense, as Radiation mostly adds a simulated +2 to the Solarian's AC when in melee if the target is effected. In a game where enemies have such high to-hits this could be noticeable.

You would be a lot more convincing if you were more objective in presentation.

Against the opponents that fail that save, it causes the sicken condition. That is a lot better than a simulated +2 AC. The penalties to saves mean your teammates have a good opening to use their abilities to further harm the sickened opponents while the penalties to damage means you will need that much less healing afterwards.

I agree there are problems with how the power is written. That doesn’t mean you should downplay the sections of the power that are clear.


BretI wrote:
HWalsh wrote:


For me... That is too many things I don't know... However let us assume that the stars align and allows this power to hit multiple enemies all of the time, that it can be turned on as a Standard Action and he can move around and keep multiple people in range so it has an effect and that it works more than 50% of the time.

That is a a LOT of "ifs" mind you.

He may see a great value out of it, most commonly in the case of defense, as Radiation mostly adds a simulated +2 to the Solarian's AC when in melee if the target is effected. In a game where enemies have such high to-hits this could be noticeable.

You would be a lot more convincing if you were more objective in presentation.

Against the opponents that fail that save, it causes the sicken condition. That is a lot better than a simulated +2 AC. The penalties to saves mean your teammates have a good opening to use their abilities to further harm the sickened opponents while the penalties to damage means you will need that much less healing afterwards.

I agree there are problems with how the power is written. That doesn’t mean you should downplay the sections of the power that are clear.

I think HWalsh has been very clear about the Radiation power. He's stated, in a number of posts, that it's a very nice power, when it works. It has two major problems, (1) it's easy to save against and once you make the save, you're immune to it (Plus the way it's worded you can trigger multiple saves). (2) It's so badly worded, the game mechanics of it can change from GM to GM.


Matt2VK wrote:
BretI wrote:
HWalsh wrote:


For me... That is too many things I don't know... However let us assume that the stars align and allows this power to hit multiple enemies all of the time, that it can be turned on as a Standard Action and he can move around and keep multiple people in range so it has an effect and that it works more than 50% of the time.

That is a a LOT of "ifs" mind you.

He may see a great value out of it, most commonly in the case of defense, as Radiation mostly adds a simulated +2 to the Solarian's AC when in melee if the target is effected. In a game where enemies have such high to-hits this could be noticeable.

You would be a lot more convincing if you were more objective in presentation.

Against the opponents that fail that save, it causes the sicken condition. That is a lot better than a simulated +2 AC. The penalties to saves mean your teammates have a good opening to use their abilities to further harm the sickened opponents while the penalties to damage means you will need that much less healing afterwards.

I agree there are problems with how the power is written. That doesn’t mean you should downplay the sections of the power that are clear.

I think HWalsh has been very clear about the Radiation power. He's stated, in a number of posts, that it's a very nice power, when it works. It has two major problems, (1) it's easy to save against and once you make the save, you're immune to it (Plus the way it's worded you can trigger multiple saves). (2) It's so badly worded, the game mechanics of it can change from GM to GM.

Pretty much.

Sicken is... Mediocre.

-2 to attacks
-2 to saves

A far cry from what it was in Pathfinder.

If it worked through armor and if it stuck when it hit someone and if it didn't trigger an immunity timer... Then it would be better.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
HWalsh wrote:
Matt2VK wrote:
I think HWalsh has been very clear about the Radiation power. He's stated, in a number of posts, that it's a very nice power, when it works. It has two major problems, (1) it's easy to save against and once you make the save, you're immune to it (Plus the way it's worded you can trigger multiple saves). (2) It's so badly worded, the game mechanics of it can change from GM to GM.

Pretty much.

Sicken is... Mediocre.

-2 to attacks
-2 to saves

A far cry from what it was in Pathfinder.

If it worked through armor and if it stuck when it hit someone and if it didn't trigger an immunity timer... Then it would be better.

-2 weapon damage

-2 ability checks
-2 skill checks

Comparing it against Pathfinder doesn't work well either. A lot of the bonuses and penalties have changed in the system, generally scaling them back significantly. Look at the change to Flat Footed for an excellent example of changed penalties.

You stated above "that we aren't sure if Armor does stop it", yet once again in this post you make it sound like a forgone conclusion that armor provides immunity.

I'm not saying Radiation is a great power. Just that it isn't as bad as you continually make it out to be.


HWalsh wrote:

Pretty much.

Sicken is... Mediocre.

-2 to attacks
-2 to saves

A far cry from what it was in Pathfinder.

If it worked through armor and if it stuck when it hit someone and if it didn't trigger an immunity timer... Then it would be better.

I'm confused by this statement. How can it be a far cry from what it was in Pathfinder when its identical in what it does? Given most people have a hard time getting saving throw DC bonuses relative to Pathfinder, a penalty to enemy saves is actually worth relatively more in Starfinder.

Starfinder Core Rulebook, page 277:
You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Pathfinder core rulebook, page 568:
The character takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks.

Edit: Ninja'd after getting distracted while writing.


Hiruma Kai wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

Pretty much.

Sicken is... Mediocre.

-2 to attacks
-2 to saves

A far cry from what it was in Pathfinder.

If it worked through armor and if it stuck when it hit someone and if it didn't trigger an immunity timer... Then it would be better.

I'm confused by this statement. How can it be a far cry from what it was in Pathfinder when its identical in what it does? Given most people have a hard time getting saving throw DC bonuses relative to Pathfinder, a penalty to enemy saves is actually worth relatively more in Starfinder.

Starfinder Core Rulebook, page 277:
You take a -2 penalty to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Pathfinder core rulebook, page 568:
The character takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks.

Edit: Ninja'd after getting distracted while writing.

Because in Pathfinder at no point do I recall it ever vanishing after stepping away for a couple squares, nor causing a 24 he immunity timer.


Eh. With the right interpretation of Radiation in operation I'd take it as a power. I could see someone wreaking real havoc with it in certain circumstances. But to each their own; and it would certainly depend on rules interpretations that could go either way, that's undeniable.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:

Wow, this thread blew up while I was away.

To answer questions, I say the iconic Solarian is supposed to be lightly armored because A) They don't start off with heavy armor, B) their armor version does not work with heavy armor, and C) Altronus (the iconic Solarian) doesn't wear heavy armor.

Secondly: for "I may have gotten a few of the details wrong" I meant "I may have not allocated stats correctly when I was saying how Melee solarians should be made."

Thirdly: Okay if I got my druthers to play a solarian character, I'd go one of two ways: I could go either armor or weapon.

Old Kung-fu Solarian

Korasha Lashunta (Priest)
Str: 16, Dex:14 Con:10, Int:10, Wis:9, Chr: 14

So if I start with armor, then I get a pair of Bone Cestuses, and use that for my 'unarmed strikes.' +4 to hit for 1d6+3 at first level.

My armor would be 14 or 15 at level 1

If I went weapon, then I'd have some sort of aura that surrounds me, that empowers my 'unarmed strikes.' Damage would be the same at first level though I wouldn't have to buy a weapon) and my armor would be one less.

Looking at my general build, my AC would be roughly on par with the Iconic Solarian Altronus (maybe one better, or 2 if i was the armor solarian) So by level 8 I'd have an EAC of 21/22/23, and a KAC of 22/23/24. Let's just compare that to the other frontliner, Obozaya, who has an EAC of 26, and a KAC of 29, that's a difference of between 3 and 5 AC. She would get hit a lot less than me.

In fact, looking at the combatant array from the back of alien archives, the primary attack of a combatant should be +21. That means enemies would have to roll a 1 to miss my EAC, and at best a 2 to miss my KAC. And while Obozaya's not leagues better, a two at least misses her EAC, and a 7 misses her KAC. You simply can't frontline if you are being hit with EVERY SINGLE ATTACK.

keep in mind that Altronus is very badly made you want to be a lot better then him.

in comparison my solarian at 1 had ac16/17 doing d6+3 +4 to hit or +0 if swinging twice ans it just keeps getting better :)
though i mostly run so my actual playig as a player time is mostly cons

The Exchange

Just wanted to point out that in another, non Paizo AP, that nearly every enemy is in armour that does not provide environmental protection at all. It's modified body plating or primitive armour with no enviro protection,

Additionally, in the Paizo AP, none of the armour wearing enemies state they have environmental protection turned on. That would be in the tactics section of their battle write up.

So immediately you have one round where Radiation is going to sicken them and probably force them to spend an action activating their environmental protections.

So that means you just enabled a great battlefield control by chewing up a group of enemies actions.

This makes the power a very good debuff.

If your DM is running encounters in published modules where the enemy always has the environment protection on, then they are modifying encounters beyond the balance of the published documents. In essence, they are making a power weaker and enemies more powerful than the publishers intended.

While that is perfectly valid in a home game, it's not allowed in PFS games.

And all of that is true, whether your DM allows the power to work through armours normal environmental protections or not.

The Exchange

As for Stellar rush being so awesome, it's so damn easy to block effective charge lanes that it becomes a case by case useful ability as well.

Particularly if your enemy is in cover that's equivalent to crates or wall sections that are five feet across (like most of the maps in the Paizo AP). You have to spend precious rounds positioning yourself in flanking angles to pull of that charge, otherwise you just run into a crate and can't reach the guy anyway.

A reach weapon will help, obviously, but then you're not using the much vaunted Solarian weapon so the trade off is pretty significant.

I think the Solarian is pretty well balanced in all honesty. And it's a class that allows for very flexible character design. Which makes it great for replayablility.


Wrath wrote:

As for Stellar rush being so awesome, it's so damn easy to block effective charge lanes that it becomes a case by case useful ability as well.

Particularly if your enemy is in cover that's equivalent to crates or wall sections that are five feet across (like most of the maps in the Paizo AP). You have to spend precious rounds positioning yourself in flanking angles to pull of that charge, otherwise you just run into a crate and can't reach the guy anyway.

A reach weapon will help, obviously, but then you're not using the much vaunted Solarian weapon so the trade off is pretty significant.

I think the Solarian is pretty well balanced in all honesty. And it's a class that allows for very flexible character design. Which makes it great for replayablility.

The Solarian can move before charging if they need to. In my experience in both modules and homebrew I have only once been in a position where I couldn't reach a target after level 2. Combined with certain other tools (Jump Jets are nice) and the like I have gotten to the point where Nimble Moves is almost not necessary on my build to where I regret actually taking it.

Its actually really hard to stop a determined Solarian.

At level 6, for example, I once stellar rushed someone across a wall. As in I charged down the wall to reach them by going over their cover.

In so far, about 9 levels of my personal character, I have found that it is the most useful and consistent power I have available. I have run into only one single instance where I couldn't reach someone in one round. Almost all of those times I could it was due to Stellar Rush.

This was again in both Published and home brew content.

In the 3-4 test games with Radiation I have gotten it to work, beyond 1 target, twice. Once I did get it to stick on someone for 3 turns. I haven't had it stick on anyone for 4 yet. I also once was in a situation where someone managed to trigger 2 saves against it in the same round. (I turned it on, they failed, then they moved in such a way that they clipped out of it, then clipped into it where they made the save, then back out of it trying to reach a specific position.)

In the 3 round application that stuck, sadly, it had 0 impact on the situation. The hits against me that it missed would have missed regardless. They were 2 lower in damage, but in the grand scheme of things at that level it was unimportant. Their saves were impacted vs our Envoy, but the target rolled high enough to resist anyway. So we noted almost no impact from it being applied.

It is a very sketchy power.

Part of this is due to how high enemy saves, attack, and damage bonuses are. -2 just doesn't matter as much as it did in Pathfinder.

The Exchange

Charge is quite restrictive actually, and it sounds like you may have bent rules to pull some of them off.

You start in your square, you must finish in the closest square that enables an attack.
If any line from your square to that target square is blocked by terrain etc, you cannot charge.

So running along a wall to ignore the cover between you and them fails. Unless you started and finished your move on the wall, which I'd love for you to explain.
Using a jump jet to leap over terrain or obstacles fails. Neither of those things allow you to ignore intervening stuff from your starting square to the closes target square.

I'm sure there's a feat that specifically calls out "you treat difficult terrain as normal terrain" which would allow you to charge through it via the rules

As for your anecdote about how bad the radiation was, small sample space and bad rolls bias any opinion.

I played through the first part of the Legendary Planet adventure path with a face to face group. The Solarion in that took radiation and it caused havoc to the enemies in that game. Saves dropped so the other characters abilities and spells went off much easier, they hit the Solarion far less than normal and did less damage. He forced enemies to shift position to be more effective, which in turn opened up far more tactical opportunities for the group.

So my anecdote completely contradicts yours.

But, your stuff is only advice. It's not like you're here telling everyone you have to play a Solarian just this way and choose just these abilities, so meh.


Wrath, I think you're forgetting that stellar rush is a standard action, unlike regular charging, and as such you can run along a wall / jump jet over something / reposition to avoid cover before triggering it, wich is what HWalsh seems to be alluding to in this case.


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Wrath wrote:

Charge is quite restrictive actually, and it sounds like you may have bent rules to pull some of them off.

You start in your square, you must finish in the closest square that enables an attack.
If any line from your square to that target square is blocked by terrain etc, you cannot charge.

Nimble Moves takes care of a lot of the difficult terrain when needed.

Quote:
So running along a wall to ignore the cover between you and them fails. Unless you started and finished your move on the wall, which I'd love for you to explain.

Move onto the wall as your move action, staying there with any number of methods. Spider-Climb or Suckers let you stand there. Now, providing your enemy is standing in a square on the wall:

You know what, lemme see if I can find a hosting place for an image...

Start position

Now, as you can see by the arrows, you move from that square, onto difficult terrain, then using your spider-climb, up onto the wall.

Movement arrows

This holds your position on the wall.

Wall position

Then, using Gravity Boost (post level 6):

"At 6th level, you can move along vertical surfaces and even upside down along ceilings for 1 round. This functions as spider climb, but it leaves your hands free and you can also run."

You use Stellar Rush.

Charge!

Your Gravity Boost allows you to run, so you can still use charge. You are moving in a straight line. You are not on difficult terrain. You are able to charge. You do fall after you strike, but with the right augments this is totally legal.

Final Position

Quote:
Using a jump jet to leap over terrain or obstacles fails. Neither of those things allow you to ignore intervening stuff from your starting square to the closes target square.

What you can do, however, is use your normal movement with the jump jets to clear the difficult terrain and position yourself where you can charge.

Quote:
I'm sure there's a feat that specifically calls out "you treat difficult terrain as normal terrain" which would allow you to charge through it via the rules

Nimble moves.

Quote:
As for your anecdote about how bad the radiation was, small sample space and bad rolls bias any opinion.

Its not small sample space. I have put these through tons of rolls, tests, and scenarios. On an average roll your enemy will save. So you need them to have multiple bad rolls in sequence for it to do much of anything.

Quote:
But, your stuff is only advice. It's not like you're here telling everyone you have to play a Solarian just this way and choose just these abilities, so meh.

Quite true, I am only giving advice. I don't claim that there is just one way to play.


I wonder if you value Stellar Rush so highly since you strongly prefer solarians in heavy armor, which reduces your movement speed. Being able to both move and charge on the same turn is much more useful if you have a poor baseline speed.
Personally I'm not that impressed with Stellar Rush. If the opponent is a melee creature then charging him simply gives him the convenience of choosing between attacking you and using his move action for something else or full attacking you on his next turn. Better to move to a position that blocks the path to your allies and ready an action to attack him.

It is useful for when you engage an opponent that wants to stay at range and is outside of both move and charge range (ie 25-100 feet depending on terrain and your speed), but at least for my group that's rarely been an issue in Dead Suns. We have a very mobile melee soldier though, so it's possible my experience is skewed.

HWalsh wrote:
Its not small sample space. I have put these through tons of rolls, tests, and scenarios. On an average roll your enemy will save. So you need them to have multiple bad rolls in sequence for it to do much of anything.

Well, that's easy to check. :)

We can compare the sample save DCs for Solarians I listed over here and compare them to the baseline saves found in the Alien Archives.

Combatant Array
CR 5: +7 Fort save v DC 15, he makes it on an 8 or about 60% of the time.
CR 10: +12 Fort save v DC 20, he makes it on an 8 or about 60% of the time.
CR 15: +17 Fort save v DC 23, he makes it on a 6 or about 70% of the time.

Expert Array
CR 5: +4 Fort save v DC 15, he makes it on an 11 or just under 50% of the time.
CR 10: +9 Fort save v DC 20, he makes it on an 11 or just under 50% of the time.
CR 15: +13 Fort save DC 23, he makes it on a 10 or just over 50% of the time.

Spellcaster Array
CR 5: +4 Fort save v DC 15, he makes it on an 11 or just under 50% of the time.
CR 10: +9 Fort save v DC 20, he makes it on an 11 or just under 50% of the time.
CR 15: +13 Fort save DC 23, he makes it on a 10 or just over 50% of the time.

So on average, combatants are likely to make the save against radiations and experts and spellcasters have a roughly 50-50 shot of making/failing it. Note that this has pretty good synergy if you have another party member who's also debuffing, so Radiation works best in a party with a mystic or an envoy.

One thing I quite like about radiation is that it works best in fights with multiple enemies, and the more enemies there are the lower their saves are going to be. It's probably not worth activating the power if you're going into a CR+2 single-big-boss-type fight, but if you're fighting swarms of lesser enemies it can punch well above its own weight class.


Stellar rushes value inceases the more move action consuming revelations you have. For instance with stellar rush you can activate plasma sheath and still move to engage.


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Kudaku wrote:
I wonder if you value Stellar Rush so highly since you strongly prefer solarians in heavy armor, which reduces your movement speed. Being able to both move and charge on the same turn is much more useful if you have a poor baseline speed.

Nope. Heavy Armor or Light Armor Stellar Rush is a "must have" feat for a melee Solarian.

Toss it if you're a ranged Solarian as it is crap for those characters.

If you're melee you want it. It generally lets you use a move action to turn on another power and still move and attack. It also effectively triples your movement speed.

Want to turn on Plasma Sheath and attack? You'd better be in melee range.

Here are 2 typical level 6+ melee scenarios:

One is a heavy armored melee Solarion, one is light. One has Stellar Rush, one doesn't.

An enemy is 15 ft away:

Round 1:
Non Stellar Rush (NSR) photon attunes, moves into melee, attacks for 2d6+1d4+14.

Round 2:
Enemy steps away, NSR makes an attack of opportunity for 2d6+1d4+14.

---

Round 1:
Stellar Rush (SR) photon attunes, uses a move action to turn on Plasma Sheath, stellar rushes for 2d6+1d4+17f damage.

Round 2:
Enemy steps away, SR makes an attack of opportunity for 2d6+1d4+17f.

***

Alternate Round 2's:

Round 2:
The Enemy melees NSR. NSR uses a move action to turn on Plasma Sheath and attacks for 2d6+1d4+17 damage.

---

Round 2:
The Enemy melees SR. SR uses a full attack with Plasma Sheath for a combined 4d6+2d4+34f damage.

***

In both cases the SR Solarian does better.

As to Heavily Armored being less mobile... It's usually only a 5 ft penalty for SF Heavy Armor. Not something I notice.


I'm not sure it's fair to simply compare a solarion with SR to one that doesn't have it - assuming they're the same* level, the NSR Solarian would have another revelation instead. Moreover, your example doesn't account for enemies that want to be in melee with you. How about this?

NSR: Attunes Solar, activates Plasma Sheath, readies action to attack with reach weapon.
SR: Attunes Solar, activates Plasma Sheath, charges, makes one attack.

NSR's Enemy Turn: Moves into melee, gets hit by AoO + readied action, makes one attack.
SR's Enemy Turn: Provokes no AoO, makes full attack against Solarion.

The reason why I bring up the speed is that the difference between a light and heavy armor solarion's speed is more likely 15-20 feet, not 5. The lightly armed solarian uses the feat he saves on armor proficiency to take Fleet instead. :)

*Corrected typo.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
Kudaku wrote:

Your example doesn't account for enemies that want to be in melee with you. How about this?

NSR: Attunes Solar, activates Plasma Sheath, readies action to attack with reach weapon.
SR: Attunes Solar, activates Plasma Sheath, charges, makes one attack.

NSR's Enemy Turn: Moves into melee, gets hit by AoO + readied action, makes one attack.
SR's Enemy Turn: Provokes no AoO, makes full attack against Solarion.

The reason why I bring up the speed is that the difference between a light and heavy armor solarion's speed is more likely 15-20 feet, not 5. The lightly armed solarian uses the feat he saves on armor proficiency to take Fleet instead. :)

not sure that fleet is particularly useful for a solairian, i mean its not nothing.

but im not sure it adds enough at least at early levels.

The Exchange

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Stellar rush is useful, no doubt. If I was going to be in close combat often, it's definitely an ability I would b choosing.

But I suspect it would not be a power I'd be getting off every combat.

I certainly wouldn't be doing the rush along walls then fall prone on the ground move suggested above by HWalsh. That opens you up to an AoO (leaving your square in a threatened area) and leaves you prone in melee. That's just....well stupid.

I've seen too many situations where the terrain just stops the charge for enemies in cover. That includes with th caveat of moving first to try an open up charge lane. This is particularly true in corridors and buildings. Cover is just so much more prevalent in Starfinder.

I also think the revelations and how you choose them would heavily depend on the way you play.

If you're playing society games, where you have no idea who you're allies are going to be from one game to the next, then I would be choosing powers that work for me as an individual more than ones than synergise in groups.

However, in games where I know the other players and characters, I'd be choosing more revelations based around team dynamics. I mean, you throw radiation at a group of combatants and combine it with the Feint ability of allies (or yourself if you've gone improved Feint) and your debuffs start looking much better.

So, like all the revelations, Stellar Rush has varying value dependant on the campaign your in. It's still a hard one to pass up if you're planning on getting up close and personal as often as possible.

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