Does anybody else think it’s weird you can’t retry knowledge checks?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Even if it were only like 1+mod number of times or something, I think it makes sense to being able to retry knowledge checks. Before you say “how can you learn something just by thinking about it some more” the answer is simple, you don’t learn it by doing this, you remember it. Because humans forget stuff all the time, and trying to remember something could actually take them up to several minutes, hours, or even days depending on things we don’t fully understand about the human brain (AFAIK, anyways). They didn’t just magically learn the information by stopping and thinking about it, they remembered the information by stopping and thinking about it.

So am I the only one who thinks it is weird that you can’t retry knowledge checks?


Because what you are saying is already in factor into the check.
The check assume that in 2 month, you won't be able to remember it.

It's made like that to simplify thing.

And I think you can re-attempt knowledge check if you get new information about the thing you trying to remember/know.


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You're also missing part of the "Retry" part of the skill description.

Quote:
Try Again: Any conditions that apply to successive attempts to use the skill successfully. If the skill doesn’t allow you to attempt the same task more than once, or if failure carries an inherent penalty (such as with the Climb skill), you can’t take 20. If this paragraph is omitted, the skill can be retried without any inherent penalty other than the additional time required.

The important part of that is "successive attempts." If you fail a Knowledge check, you don't get to try again immediately. Just like if I can't remember the name of the actor who played Wesley in The Princess Bride, I probably won't be able to remember it five seconds from now just because I tried again.

It might come to me later. At a time period I can't predict. And as a GM, I frequently will let a player retry Knowledge checks after some amount of time has passed, or if something new is learned about the thing.

*party sees emblem of a demon goddess* "Hey, Druid player, you can make a Knowledge: Religion check to see if you recognize the symbol."

*she rolls a total of 14, high enough to match "recognize a common religion's symbols" but not high enough to match the DC 20 for "recognize an obscure deity's symbols"*

"Nope, you don't recognize it, but you're pretty sure it isn't one of the common religions in this area."

*time passes, they find the same symbol again, but this time carved into someone's body - a not terribly uncommon practice for demonic cults* "Hey, Druid player, that jogs your memory a bit. Why don't you try another Knowledge check?"

*she rolls a total of 23* "Seeing the symbol in this rather more disturbing context, you remember that it's actually the sign of *demon goddess*."

So, not successive checks. But that doesn't mean you can't ever retry it. Just not immediately.


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The skill is about what you know so if I see car and I don't know what type of car it is, then I'm not going to know until I gain more information about cars.

I houserule that you can try again if you gain another rank in the skill. I also allow retries if you come across a library or other source that could have relevant information.


You can retry Knowledge checks.....just not in succession (ie: waiting for the dice to favor you).


wraithstrike wrote:
I houserule that you can try again if you gain another rank in the skill. I also allow retries if you come across a library or other source that could have relevant information.

That was actually the rule in 3.5e...


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I houserule that you can try again if you gain another rank in the skill. I also allow retries if you come across a library or other source that could have relevant information.
That was actually the rule in 3.5e...

That never appears in the 3.5 Knowledge skill at all.


Huh?
.
..
...
Oooohhh.
I mixed it up with Spellcraft, "Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll".
I was sure such a rule showed up for some knowledge checks too, though.


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It makes perfect sense. Failing a knowledge check means you don't know something. Thinking about it more isn't going to let you suddenly know something you never learned.


Zhayne wrote:
It makes perfect sense. Failing a knowledge check means you don't know something. Thinking about it more isn't going to let you suddenly know something you never learned.

Quite often it means that you cannot recall a specific detail while the Jeopardy music is playing, not that you flat out do not know.


If it's about remembering, then I would allow a reroll based on coming across things that would help aid that. Forget a guys name from Princess Bride? Sure. Watch Robin Hood: Men in Tights? Oh right Cary Elwes.

Additional. I will never forget this name.

Grand Lodge

Reksew_Trebla wrote:
So am I the only one who thinks it is weird that you can’t retry knowledge checks?

So just allow it in your game

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I do not find it weird, given it is determining if you know something, not if you can remember it.


No, you either learned the capital of Montana in the third grade well enough to remember it now or you didn't. Trying again isn't going to turn back time.


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Eh, I forget things from long ago and remember them later all the time. If Knowledge was written with retry rules I wouldn't call it unrealistic. But I don't think it's actually a problem that it doesn't allow it.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Eh, I forget things from long ago and remember them later all the time. If Knowledge was written with retry rules I wouldn't call it unrealistic. But I don't think it's actually a problem that it doesn't allow it.

you're on a different adventure by that point.

Liberty's Edge

Do you know who followed John Hanson as the President of the Continental Congress?

... (six second delay, and no searching Google, Wikipedia, etc.)

Do you know now?


Theconiel wrote:

Do you know who followed John Hanson as the President of the Continental Congress?

... (six second delay, and no searching Google, Wikipedia, etc.)

Do you know now?

That’s not a fair comparision.

Do you know who played Harry Potter in the movies?

(six second delay)

Oh you remembered after thinking about it? That’s what I thought.

Grand Lodge

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Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Theconiel wrote:

Do you know who followed John Hanson as the President of the Continental Congress?

... (six second delay, and no searching Google, Wikipedia, etc.)

Do you know now?

That’s not a fair comparision.

Do you know who played Harry Potter in the movies?

(six second delay)

Oh you remembered after thinking about it? That’s what I thought.

Except your example isn't how knowledge checks work. They represent the sum of your characters knowledge of the subject and if you've ever learned about it then you can recall it in those 6 second. No, it's not realistic, but that's how it works.


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Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Theconiel wrote:

Do you know who followed John Hanson as the President of the Continental Congress?

... (six second delay, and no searching Google, Wikipedia, etc.)

Do you know now?

That’s not a fair comparision.

Do you know who played Harry Potter in the movies?

(six second delay)

Oh you remembered after thinking about it? That’s what I thought.

Except your example isn't how knowledge checks work. They represent the sum of your characters knowledge of the subject and if you've ever learned about it then you can recall it in those 6 second. No, it's not realistic, but that's how it works.

Actually the example is much closer to how it works than your explanation. If you encounter a ghoul you get a Know (religion) check to recognize it and recall its abilities. If you encounter another ghoul the next day you get another roll. You are not forever locked into what you got on the first roll with regards to ghouls.

Grand Lodge

I don't think you ever can roll it again on the same creature actually.

CRB wrote:
Try Again? No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place

It says it represents what you know about the topic and that's it. Doesn't matter if you encounter another ghoul a day later. If you failed the knowledge check on the first one you can't identify it with a knowledge check.

What you can do is go "oh we fought something that looks like this before and it could paralyze people with it's attacks" or "we fought something like this yesterday and my fellow party member identified it as a ghoul".


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I don't think you ever can roll it again on the same creature actually.

CRB wrote:
Try Again? No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place

It says it represents what you know about the topic and that's it. Doesn't matter if you encounter another ghoul a day later. If you failed the knowledge check on the first one you can't identify it with a knowledge check.

What you can do is go "oh we fought something that looks like this before and it could paralyze people with it's attacks" or "we fought something like this yesterday and my fellow party member identified it as a ghoul".

RAW you're probably right, but that's a big limitation on Know checks. For instance, Level 1, you attempt a Knowledge check, say nobility, to see what you know about the Royal Family. You get a 11 (avg result). Now, fast forward a few in-game years, and you level up to Level 10, you become a rather well-respected member of the adventuring community, but....you don't know anymore about the Royal Family than your 11 at Level 1, even if you've put in, say 10 ranks in Knowledge Nobility?


I think it makes sense to at least be able to try again after gaining a rank in the skill in question, or having potentially learned it some other way, like via a library

What is strange is that an enhancement to one's Intelligence gives a bonus to knowledge checks, so making your chances of knowing any given thing higher, while presumably not bestowing that information on you in any way

Silver Crusade

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bhampton wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I don't think you ever can roll it again on the same creature actually.

CRB wrote:
Try Again? No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place

It says it represents what you know about the topic and that's it. Doesn't matter if you encounter another ghoul a day later. If you failed the knowledge check on the first one you can't identify it with a knowledge check.

What you can do is go "oh we fought something that looks like this before and it could paralyze people with it's attacks" or "we fought something like this yesterday and my fellow party member identified it as a ghoul".

RAW you're probably right, but that's a big limitation on Know checks. For instance, Level 1, you attempt a Knowledge check, say nobility, to see what you know about the Royal Family. You get a 11 (avg result). Now, fast forward a few in-game years, and you level up to Level 10, you become a rather well-respected member of the adventuring community, but....you don't know anymore about the Royal Family than your 11 at Level 1, even if you've put in, say 10 ranks in Knowledge Nobility?

No, it just means you didn't already know the information. Nothing is stopping you from consulting another source to learn it. You don't know much about the royal family, so you chat up a courtier who tells you that the crown princess has gotten herself in some trouble by spurning the advances of the Duke of Higgldeypiggldey, creating a diplomatic incident. There, now you know more. You can't identify a ghoul by your knowledge roll, so later you hit a library and research "stinky corpse thing that paralyzes people" and now you can identify a ghoul.

You don't even really have to go that far, if there is downtime or a timeskip, just tell your DM you're researching something and they'll probably give you a lot of pertinent information.


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The knowledge check is really not about remembering, it's a random chance you roll to check if if you actually studied about this subject and learned something. If you fail, it just means you never studied about that.
Of course, it would make sense that after putting points in a knowledge skill, you could check if you learned what you need. Or you can just go to a library or find a npc that know the answer.


.


let me check again to see if I know anything about this... 8^0


Doppleman wrote:
The knowledge check is really not about remembering, it's a random chance you roll to check if if you actually studied about this subject and learned something.

Exactly.

The skill isn't Remember(arcana) or Remember(history) or even Recall(religion). It's Knowledge. Does your character know something or not? Meet the DC, they do. Don't meet the DC, they don't.

Why?

As has been stated, because if you make it Remember(whatever) and allow rerolls, you've allowed take-20 because you've removed the consequence of failure (not knowing). Out of combat players might as well just add 20 to every Knowledge check they make. Which is not intended.

Dark Archive

wraithstrike wrote:

The skill is about what you know so if I see car and I don't know what type of car it is, then I'm not going to know until I gain more information about cars.

I houserule that you can try again if you gain another rank in the skill. I also allow retries if you come across a library or other source that could have relevant information.

Sounds right to me.

It's a knowledge skill. You know it or you don't.

Rolling to *remember* something (which may or may not have anything to do with any of the knowledges you have trained), would, IMO, just be a straight Int check, and not a Knowledge skill check.


Set wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

The skill is about what you know so if I see car and I don't know what type of car it is, then I'm not going to know until I gain more information about cars.

I houserule that you can try again if you gain another rank in the skill. I also allow retries if you come across a library or other source that could have relevant information.

Sounds right to me.

It's a knowledge skill. You know it or you don't.

Rolling to *remember* something (which may or may not have anything to do with any of the knowledges you have trained), would, IMO, just be a straight Int check, and not a Knowledge skill check.

By your way of adjudicating you should never actually roll a knowledge check, the players need to keep a list of facts that the characters know.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Theconiel wrote:

Do you know who followed John Hanson as the President of the Continental Congress?

... (six second delay, and no searching Google, Wikipedia, etc.)

Do you know now?

That’s not a fair comparision.

Do you know who played Harry Potter in the movies?

(six second delay)

Oh you remembered after thinking about it? That’s what I thought.

That means you succeeded on your Knowledge check.

I have no idea who played Harry Potter in the movies, and thinking about it for days isn't going to help me remember something I never knew in the first place.


And sometimes something you couldn't call to mind earlier comes at a later point. Information in human memory isn't something that is either always instantly available or non-existent.

Rerolls on Knowledges should only happen after a certain amount of time has lapsed or if you have some way of getting a reminder (being able to flip through a useful book, for instance)


Zhayne wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Theconiel wrote:

Do you know who followed John Hanson as the President of the Continental Congress?

... (six second delay, and no searching Google, Wikipedia, etc.)

Do you know now?

That’s not a fair comparision.

Do you know who played Harry Potter in the movies?

(six second delay)

Oh you remembered after thinking about it? That’s what I thought.

That means you succeeded on your Knowledge check.

I have no idea who played Harry Potter in the movies, and thinking about it for days isn't going to help me remember something I never knew in the first place.

I actually know who it is, and I've been trying to remember his name for a couple of minutes now. How is it that I have that knowledge readily available in my mind until someone asks for it?

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