Charisma based character for Kingmaker Adventure Path


Advice


Hello all,

First of all, please excuse my poor english.

We are going to start a new campaign : kingmaker! We have 3 PC. My dear wife will be a tiefling fighter (two handed weapon), and my friend wants to be a dwarf druid.

I first planned to be a swashtigator (empirist investigator with a inspired blade swashbuckler dip), but i heard that it may be worthy to have a charismatic character.

So what are my options? I think about oracle or bard... I think a "face" can fill a hole in my party, especially a bard. I'd love to have a whip controller bard. But the whip part seems to require many feats. Have you a piece of advice? Dipping my bard? But with which class? Maneuveur master monk? Lore Warden? Mysterious avenger?

Or maybe another class?

Correct me if i'm wrong but the best role i can fill for my party are :
- buffer
- debuffer
- controller
- face
- "skill monkey"

Which of these are the more relevant, and how can I be the most useful for my friends?


I had a swashtigator planned that might work. Go HALF ORC and take the STUDENT OF PHILOSOPHY background trait and the OVERLOOKED MASTERMIND alternate racial trait.

Overlooked Mastermind wrote:
Some half-orcs use half-orcs’ brutish stereotypes to their advantage, causing others to underestimate their intelligence and scheming. Such half-orcs gain a +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks. This bonus increases to +4 against other humanoids. They also receive a +2 racial bonus on Bluff checks to feign ignorance and Sense Motive checks to intercept secret messages, and this stacks with the above bonus. This racial trait replaces intimidating, orc ferocity, and weapon familiarity.

Now you're and INT-based party-face.

... Or you could just go bard, they are pretty good at this kind of thing.


MrCharisma wrote:

I had a swashtigator planned that might work. Go HALF ORC and take the STUDENT OF PHILOSOPHY background trait and the OVERLOOKED MASTERMIND alternate racial trait.

Overlooked Mastermind wrote:
Some half-orcs use half-orcs’ brutish stereotypes to their advantage, causing others to underestimate their intelligence and scheming. Such half-orcs gain a +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks. This bonus increases to +4 against other humanoids. They also receive a +2 racial bonus on Bluff checks to feign ignorance and Sense Motive checks to intercept secret messages, and this stacks with the above bonus. This racial trait replaces intimidating, orc ferocity, and weapon familiarity.

Now you're and INT-based party-face.

... Or you could just go bard, they are pretty good at this kind of thing.

Problem is Kingmaker needs a ruler with a good charisma score (leadership roles), that's why i gave up my swashstigator


With the team you have? I'd say a buffer bard (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qm1h?The-guide-to-the-buffer-bard) or a sorcerer would be your best bet.

I'm running age of worms with a similar team (buffer bard, mystic theurge/arcane hierophant sorcerer/druid with a beefed up spinosaurus companion and Nagaji paladin) and it is HIGHLY effective, EDV for the AC and paladin is over 250 at level 13.


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Just note that the guide to the buffer bard forgot the dervish sikhe item which adds another +1 to inspire courage.

So at level 8 with an aasimar build you give out +4 base inspire courage, +2 with feats and items, so +6, and +2 from flagbearer + banner of ancient kings, for a total of +8 to attack and damage.

Have your druid be summon focused just for the lolz and then laugh as his swarm of eagles at level 3 ravages those bandits.


Alright! Character is a noble driven out of her home because she is a changeling. Fits in with the tiefling. Is also a Nature Oracle, which fits in with Druid.

Oracle
* Nature Mystery
Lvl 1: Cha replaces Dex for AC, Ref saves

Lvl 1 Feat
* Noble Scion of War
- +2 Knowledge Nobility, Cha for Initiative

Charisma has now replaced all of dex. Have an 18 charisma? You now have 18 dex too.

Lvl 3 Mystery? Maw and Claw. You now have 3x natural attacks. And at lvl 8 it increases to 4x natural attacks. Use divine favor and fate’s favored to pump up your damage. Take mother’s gift for a further +1 Hit and Damage. Be an Annis Hag for another +1 damage.

Then use your next Mystery to get an animal companion as like a Druid.

——

Tiefling fighter’s needs someone to fight with? You’ve got 4 attacks without any penalties to go with him.

Druid needs a friend for his pet? Well you have one too. So your 3 man group now has 5 stat blocks.

Party needs healing or buffing? You got that.

Party needs high Cha? Oh boy you got that.

And finally your kingdom needs a ruler. And you are a legit noble.


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I played an Oracle build that was designed around being a super-leader type.

Instead of Changeline, I used Kitsune. I dipped one level of Cross-Blooded dorcerer with Fey and Serpentine Bloodlines.

This nets you a flat +1 to the DC of all Enchantment spells, plus an additional +2 to the DC to all Compulsion spells. Additionally, your language dependent, mind-affecting spells will also affect Animals, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous Humanoids as if they were Humanoids that understand your language, vastly increasing your potential targets.

Take Wrecking Mysticism as your Oracle Curse. This lets you take the Magical Tail Feat instead of taking a regular Mystery Spell. Eventually, in addition to the fun Cleric spells of the Compulsion sub-school, you'll also have some great Arcane spells on your list usable twice per day (Charm Person, Suggestion, Displacement, Confusion, Dominate Person).

As an example, assuming an 18 Cha, at second level, your Murderous Command spell would have a DC of 18.

Between class spells, Mystery SLA's, and SLA's from the Magical Tails, my character had around 60 spell uses per day at level 10. I never ran out of something worthwhile to do.


Thanks a lot for all your ideas. Kitsune Oracle seems really reaaaally interessing. And fun! I'll keep this idea for another AP. Nature Oracle appears also to be fluffy and powerfull, but it seems redundant with the mini druid.

I am pretty sure that a bard will be the most useful class for my party. Tripping and dazzling display with my whip for debuffing (and some bardic performance), spells and bardic performance for buffing, versatile performance and bardic knowledge for the face and skill monkey.

Does anyone have any idea for not sucking at any of these roles?

Again, thank you for these really interessing ideas


Refer to my earlier post. Honestly it might seem underwhelming but the buffer bard is pretty much the strongest build I ever saw in play when coupled with a summoner. Plus the massive bonuses will make you highly effective at any weapon you're proficient with.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A bard will help the druid out a lot. You can buff the druid, his animal companion, and all the allies he can summon--and the fighter, too. You can act as another healer. You can be the party face and the skill monkey. You can Use Magic Device to get access to magic the party will lack access to, specifically clerical and wizardly magic.


I'm thinking about something like a human Lore Warden/Bard:

Lore Warden 1 : Weapon Focus(Whip) / Dazzling display / Weapon Finesse
Lore Warden 1/Bard 1
Lore Warden 1/Bard 2 : Lingering Performance
Lore Warden 1/Bard 3
Lore Warden 2/Bard 3 : Improved Trip / Whip Mastery

After this all bard, except maybe for another level in lore warden (te get the extra maneuvers bonus).


That does mean you'll lose spell levels and inspire courage levels as well as not being able to use flagbearer though. All of that for the ability to maybe trip someone, an ability that will stop being useful around chapter 4 of kingmaker.

I'd go with a page of spell knowledge (grease) and high charisma instead, about as potent, more at lower levels.


I played a Bloodrager/Paladin in Kingmaker that went on to be a swell ruler. He had the Destined Bloodline, though the Verdant Bloodline introduced in Ultimate Wilderness looks really good/flavorful, especially for a Kingmaker game, to the point that I probably would have taken it over Destined. The Holy Guide Paladin Archetype from the Advanced Class Guide also looks like a really cool fit for Kingmaker.


Cuup wrote:
I played a Bloodrager/Paladin in Kingmaker that went on to be a swell ruler. He had the Destined Bloodline, though the Verdant Bloodline introduced in Ultimate Wilderness looks really good/flavorful, especially for a Kingmaker game, to the point that I probably would have taken it over Destined. The Holy Guide Paladin Archetype from the Advanced Class Guide also looks like a really cool fit for Kingmaker.

Wasn't the Verdant Bloodline in the Advanced Players Guide? Or is there a different new one?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The Verdant Bloodline in APG is for Sorcerers. The one in Ultimate Wilderness is for Bloodragers. They don't/can't use the exact same bloodlines.


More importantly, what roles in the kingdom are you all planning to fill? That's what will actually make or break your game. Pick a role and build the character around that. When I played that AP, we all sat down and decided who would fill what roll, then made characters that would fill that role best while still being effective in an adventuring group. I was going to be the king, so I made a cavalier. My councilor was a witch. The High Priest was obviously a cleric. The spymaster and royal assassin were the same person - the rogue. The monk ended up as the grand diplomat.


we had 6 pcs.
2 were sorcerors and one was a bard. So very charismatic rulership

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

When we played Kingmaker, we didn't really know how it was going to be initially. I GMed part 1, and then a different GM did part 2. We didn't get too far into part 3 before it quit.

The cavalier/fighter made himself king.
My dwarf barbarian/magus was the court mage or something.

We had a witch/rogue/wannabe arcane trickster, a ranger archer, an occasional alchemist, an NPC cleric, and maybe a sorcerer. I think we geased a quickling into being our assassin, which was surprisingly effective.

Grand Lodge

Skald ?
If you take Community minded trait, your moral bonuses (not the penalties) that you share lingers two aditional rounds. Which let your druid compagnion cast spells while keeping the bonuses.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
The Verdant Bloodline in APG is for Sorcerers. The one in Ultimate Wilderness is for Bloodragers. They don't/can't use the exact same bloodlines.

Yes, I know that they can't use the same bloodlines, but I skimmed and missed it was a Bloodrager.

The part I bolded caught my eye because one of my characters for Kingmaker was a Verdant Bloodline Sorcerer, thanks for pointing out the BR part though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

There are couple of archetypes in the Pathfinder: Worldscape comic series, that adds Cha to AC and such while unarmored and not too burdened- the Sword-Devil Ranger and Warlord Fighter.

Something to consider, since both of those classes tend to dump that stat.


Can I suggest you an alternative or is it too late?

I'm currently playing the Kingmaker campaign as my party face/leader.
My DM having advised that diplomacy could be an important part of the game, I looked to the campaign trait and found the "Noble: Medvyed" one that gives a bonus to diplomacy toward feys.

Point is that I seen during the game that bonus is quite useful: the PC are several times needed to interact with feys, making that the party face has several opportunities to use it.

However, on the rolistic side, the feys are also inclined to listen people who are close to nature, which is not the case of most of charisma-based classes.

- So here the choice I made: a Sorcerer with the Sylvan Bloodline.

As a mutation of the fey blood, the very nature of the character push my DM to use lower diplomacy DC when dealing with the feys than usual.
I'm almost always seen as a kind of cousin by them, and am rather convincing when I say that I have the nature/fey interest in mind while developing our kingdom.

You have currently a druid in your party... but the druid is not the one who are going to do the diplomacy checks, and this druid is already a divine spellcaster while the oracle is another divine spellcaster.

So I thought you could have a bit of interest for my alternative :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I played an Oracle of the Life Mystery in Kingmaker and he was awesome. He kept everyone alive and buffed while they took out the bad guys. He had a few offensive spells and abilities that he could use and he was a positive energy undead destroying machine.

I highly recommend at least one high charisma party member if you are using the world building rules, especially the ones presented in the adventure rather than Ultimate Campaign. I filled the ruler roll and married a fey NPC and we the most charismatic ruling couple ever and our kingdom was rewarded because of it.


Moonheart wrote:

Can I suggest you an alternative or is it too late?

I'm currently playing the Kingmaker campaign as my party face/leader.
My DM having advised that diplomacy could be an important part of the game, I looked to the campaign trait and found the "Noble: Medvyed" one that gives a bonus to diplomacy toward feys.

Point is that I seen during the game that bonus is quite useful: the PC are several times needed to interact with feys, making that the party face has several opportunities to use it.

However, on the rolistic side, the feys are also inclined to listen people who are close to nature, which is not the case of most of charisma-based classes.

- So here the choice I made: a Sorcerer with the Sylvan Bloodline.

As a mutation of the fey blood, the very nature of the character push my DM to use lower diplomacy DC when dealing with the feys than usual.
I'm almost always seen as a kind of cousin by them, and am rather convincing when I say that I have the nature/fey interest in mind while developing our kingdom.

You have currently a druid in your party... but the druid is not the one who are going to do the diplomacy checks, and this druid is already a divine spellcaster while the oracle is another divine spellcaster.

So I thought you could have a bit of interest for my alternative :)

The problem with kingmaker is that you could have 0 ranks in diplomacy and be the best ruler ever, since the ruler just adds his charisma mod to kingdom stats.

This makes hyper focused charisma builds such as oracle and sorcerer the best (so your build was good, but the diplomacy part is irrelevant to ruling) at being a regent, closely followed by charisma based semi casters like bard and summoner. Then finally we have the offstat classes like paladin, cavalier, bloodrager, swashbucklers and so on.

Since the rule has the most impact on the stats, you want someone who will start at 18 base, +2 racial, and will put every leveling point in there as well as enhancement items and inherent books. This isn't the case for off stats builds.

You sir are pretty much stuck, if you want to be the best ruler ever, with oracle/sorcerer/bard/summoner. And even summoner is iffy...

If not there's some magus builds based off charisma too, and perhaps a dragon monk, but monks tend to be mad, I don't think a heavy focus on cha, even if monk abiliies are keyed off it, would work.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the kingdom building it is necessary to have a King with a good charisma. Obviously, the higher the better, but that certainly doesn't mean you can't succeed without starting with a CHR of 20. After a certain point, no matter how good your scores are, the bonuses from the kingdom itself eclipses them.

I would say that any character with a 16 CHR is good enough.

With that in mind, you need to figure out what your combat role for the party will be. I subscribe to the school of thought that their are really on 3 combat roles in the game (with multiple methods of accomplishing them) Striker, Controller and Support. Ideally you want at least one PC that will focus on each of these, although having a secondary focus for when either your main job isn't needed or you can't accomplish it for some reason is a good plan.

The fighter is almost certainly a striker. A druid can be any of those roles, so only knowing the class doesn't tell us much. Their is a decent bet though that the druid is a controller/striker, summon natures ally actually makes a great control spell and the animal companion, and possibly wildshaped druid are descent strikers. If that is true, then what your team needs is support.

Support is basically buffing and fixing. Bards are great at the former, and only ok at the latter. I'd certainly have at least a one cure spell known so you can at least stabilize anyone who goes down. I'd recommend against a lore warden dip, it would indeed make you more versatile (adding striking and control abilities) but at the cost of your 'main job.' I'd probably either go with an archery build (if I wanted to be a secondary striker and add ranged capability to the party) or a dazzling display build (add a bit of control) but I'd keep it just bard for sure.

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