Should I take a level in Rogue?


Advice

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In my current Pathfinder game, I'm playing a halfling hunter with a boar companion that functions as a mount. The entire build revolves flanking and attacks of opportunity. We are at level 6 and I'm wondering if I should take a level or two in Unchained Rogue next. The GM has already said that if I do, I can retrain the Weapon Finesse I took at level one as Unchained Rogues get it as a class feature. So I'd basically be getting not just the regular level 7 feat, but an extra feat as well. The extra damage from the Sneak Attack would be nice too. I'm pretty much always flanking thanks to the Pack Flanking feat. Plus he's started putting in hidden traps so Trapfinder and Evasion would be really nice. As for the Talent, I'm leaning towards Assault Leader, Combat Trick or Ninja Trick. If I take Ninja Trick, I'm looking at Pressure Points or Slow Reactions.

My stats are 12 Str, 20 Dex, 15 Con, 11 Int, 18 Wis, and 13 Cha. Rolled, not point buy. I have the traits Dirty Fighter and Flame of the Dawnflower. My feats are Weapon Finesse, Outflank, Pack Flanking, Precise Strike, Dervish Dance, and Broken Wing Gambit. I plan to take Paired Opportunists at level 7 and if I take the Rogue level, I will be changing Weapon Finesse into Combat Reflexes.

The only downside is delaying spell progression and animal companion advancement by two levels. But is that enough of a downside to not take the class?


if your going unchained rogue may as well go 3 levels for the dex to damage or 4 for debilitating injury, boon companion will shore up the loss of levels for your companion


I already have Dex to Damage with the Dervish Dance feat.

Liberty's Edge

I'd say yes, if you're only gonna take two, and are gonna lose animal companion levels, that is too much of a downside.

That said, if you, instead of Combat Reflexes, took Boon Companion you could take up to four levels without halting Animal Companion progression at all.

Three levels would also allow up to 3d6 Sneak Attack with the Accomplished Sneak Attacker Feat and would replace Str with Dex on damage. That's not all that bad given that you're losing a relatively small number of things.

EDIT: If you already have Dex to damage, this is slightly less good. Still might be worth it for the extra die of Sneak Attack though, and Boon Companion and Accomplished Sneak Attacker are always good.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You can use your new feat for Accomplished Sneak Attacker, for an additional +1d6 to sneak attack. If you're not too concerned about losing spellcasting, taking 4 levels of Unchained Rogue and the Boon Companion Feat is probably the way to go. 3d6 sneak attack is about +10 damage. Nice.

EDIT:

DOH! Deadmanwalking totally ninja'd me!

The Unchained Rogue also gets some good debuffs with Debilitating Injury at 4th level, and Uncanny Dodge, and another Rogue Talent.


One level is doable, more will hurt more than they're worth IMO. By the way I suggested on another thread that the Improved Spell Sharing teamwork feat would be useful to you.


So what I'm getting is either just take one level of Unchained Rogue, or take 4. Since Dervish Dance only works on my Scimitar, I guess I could use the Finesse training to do Dex to Damage with my kunai. I got it to cover B and P type damage. And making my opponent Disoriented looks pretty decent.

With 4 levels of Unchained Rogue, I'd have a BAB of +7. And when I'm flanking and getting Sneak Attack, my Scimitar will have to-hit of +19 and the damage would be 1d4+7+4d6. That's 12 minimum and 35 maximum, assuming I don't enhance it further.

I actually don't use spells all that much, other than Stone Call and Magic Fang. I only just added Cat's Grace when we leveled up, which wouldn't help my boar all that much aside from adding +2 to his AC. The healing is taken care of by my CLW wand.


you could also switch up the weapon you are using, start twf with kukris or go 2h fighting with an elven curve blade which nets you 1.5x dex to damage


If you want to do different damage types the weapon versatility feat is better than trying to keep a second weapon enchanted. The weapon focus prereq can be obtained by an opalescent white pyramid ioun stone in a wayfinder if you don't want to spend a second feat.

There are many useful spells out there which you could share, starting with sense vitals (+2d6 sneak attack at your current caster level) which should be great if you're flanking all the time.


What is your original class? If it's a druid then I would stay with the druid. The sneak attack from one level or rogue is not going to be enough of an improvement to make it worth taking. If you take 3 or 4 levels of unchained rogue its even worse for s druid. If you were going ranger I would say go for it because you dont lose too much in my opinion.

If you're a hunter I dont know what to tell you because I haven't really looked at the class since the final version came out.


I'm assuming Tusk Blades would count as a manufactured weapon?

I haven't enchanted my Kunai other than getting Alchemical Silver. My scimitar is Cold Iron. And I definitely don't want to change out my scimitar. It's +1 with Frost and I don't want to retrain Dervish Dance on top of Weapon Finesse.

I am a hunter. Going from level 6 to 7 in hunter without an archetype gets you +1 BAB, 2 third-level spells, and a bonus trick for the animal companion. It's nothing that I can't go without for a few levels.

Sovereign Court

Huh. Rogue 4/Hunter3+++ looks pretty sweet yeah. Certain flanking partner and no-getting-away debilitating injuries. Boon Companion to seal the deal.

Liberty's Edge

Ascalaphus wrote:
Huh. Rogue 4/Hunter3+++ looks pretty sweet yeah. Certain flanking partner and no-getting-away debilitating injuries. Boon Companion to seal the deal.

It's very solid, yeah. I'd personally be reluctant to give up spells, but on a mechanics basis it's totally worth it on some builds. Various Archetypes can also make this even better depending on what you're aiming for. A non-mounted Hunter could make good use of Scout and anyone who wants to be a real skill monkey can do some neat stuff with Snoop, and so on and so forth.


Keep going Hunter. Maybe take extra traits to get the trap finding trait.

Losing out both animal progression and Spellcasting is not worth it.


No. If you must multiclass, take fighter [drill sergeant] for two levels, picking up three feats.

-- Hunter (from a martial perspective) is all about stuffing as many Teamwork and Greater maneuver feats as possible into your build, and sharing all the former with your companion (who should be going for Greater Bull Rush).

Alternatively, two levels of barbarian [drunken brute/savage technologist], get the rage power Ferocious Beast, and the feat Amplified Rage. (Buy a strength belt and pick up Power Attack.)

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'd say yes, if you're only gonna take two, and are gonna lose animal companion levels, that is too much of a downside.

That said, if you, instead of Combat Reflexes, took Boon Companion you could take up to four levels without halting Animal Companion progression at all.

Do NOT under any circumstances lose Combat Reflexes. With Paired Opportunists you will be an AoO-spamming machine.


Slim Jim wrote:

Do NOT under any circumstances lose Combat Reflexes. With Paired Opportunists you will be an AoO-spamming machine.

I can always wait until character level 9 to take Boon Companion. A level 7 boar companion is exactly the same as a level 6 one.

I can also wait a level to multiclass and get those third level spells first.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Greater Magic Fang is pretty sweet!


It's even sweeter with the homebrewed version of Dire Collar. It lets me turn Mick the Boar into Mick the Dire Boar for 3 rounds a day.


Since tusk-blades and AoMF stack, I would go the AoMF (Fortuitous/Gore) over the Dire Collar.


I have no idea what that acronym means.


Amulet of Mighty Fists, I believe


Ah, ok. Well, I like my Dire Boar. If I take the spell Strong Jaw at level 7 Hunter and use it and the collar, then he's doing 5d6+16 damage while flanking. That's really good for boss fights.


What Hunter archetype (if any) are you?


None. Just plain hunter.


If you decide to go (at least) 3 levels of Rogue and get Dex to damage, see if your GM will allow you to retrain Dervish Dancer.


I'm sure he would, but I'd have to wait for downtime. There might not be enough to redo both feats.


Heather 540 wrote:
I'm sure he would, but I'd have to wait for downtime. There might not be enough to redo both feats.

that entirely depends on the gm, some gms let you if you get something thats the same as something you have already retrain it out instantly at no cost, example bloodrager takes power attack at level 1 and then picks it up at level 6 as a bloodline feat my gm let me retrain out power attack i took at level one instantly and for free


I'll ask him.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If it's mostly for Sneak Attack, then snakebite striker brawler might be a better option: full BAB, Brawler's Cunning, Martial Training, unarmed strike, Brawler's Flurry (there are several martial weapons that qualify) at 2nd, and Snake Feint ("a snakebite striker who uses a standard action to feint can move as part of that action. If she is able to feint as a move action (such as from having the Improved Feint feat), she can feint and move in the same action") at 3rd. The Sneak Attack progression is slower, but that's mostly a wash with the higher BAB, anyway.

Trapfinding, despite the name, is only necessary to disarm magic traps, not to detect them. The Perception bonus is pretty meh for a dip and a hunter has decent wisdom.


I'll take a look at the brawler. Is that a hybrid class? Well, I'll find it.


Heather 540 wrote:
I'll take a look at the brawler. Is that a hybrid class? Well, I'll find it.

yep monk/fighter hybrid


Well, having my Int counted as 13 to get feats would be nice. The flurry looks nice. If I wait a level and take the spell Lead Blades, both my scimitar and unarmed strike or kunai will do more damage.


so UncRogue4/HunterX is good, especially if you want extra precision damage.

You might want to check out Brawler as Martial Flexibility is awesome for a 1 level dip. Others suggested this as well.

If you were more tricky I'd suggest Wiz(Diviner) or Arcanist(dim slide) with Magical Knack. It just takes more preparation in class design.


Heather 540 wrote:
Well, having my Int counted as 13 to get feats would be nice. The flurry looks nice. If I wait a level and take the spell Lead Blades, both my scimitar and unarmed strike or kunai will do more damage.

don't you have access to the leaded blades spell already? its a level 1 spell


I didn't take it. Since I couldn't use Mick as a mount until level 4 and there are a lot of dragons in the campaign, I took Longstrider and Resist Energy after Cure Light Wounds and Magic Fang. I get 2 level three spells and another level one spell at 7th level hunter.


I'm thinking I'll break up taking the levels of Rogue so I don't delay my spell progression too much. It'll go like this:

Level One Unchained Rogue, level 7 Hunter, level 2 and 3 Rogue, level 8 Hunter, level 4 Rogue, level 9 and up Hunter.

Eek, I just realized that I don't qualify for my Pack Flanking feat! I need Combat Expertise and I don't have the Int for it! I'll have to buy an magic item to boost it, but we're in the middle of a dungeon crawl. Ooh boy.

Edit: I talked to my GM and he said to just ignore the flanking bonuses for now and buy the Int boosting item when we get out of the dungeon. Then when we level up, retrain the extra Weapon Finesse to Combat Expertise and I'll qualify for Pack Flanking once again.


Heather 540 wrote:
I didn't take it. Since I couldn't use Mick as a mount until level 4 and there are a lot of dragons in the campaign, I took Longstrider and Resist Energy after Cure Light Wounds and Magic Fang. I get 2 level three spells and another level one spell at 7th level hunter.

weird i thought wisdom based casters were prepared casters and had access to all spell on their list just like the cleric


Heather 540 wrote:

I'm thinking I'll break up taking the levels of Rogue so I don't delay my spell progression too much. It'll go like this:

Level One Unchained Rogue, level 7 Hunter, level 2 and 3 Rogue, level 8 Hunter, level 4 Rogue, level 9 and up Hunter.

Eek, I just realized that I don't qualify for my Pack Flanking feat! I need Combat Expertise and I don't have the Int for it! I'll have to buy an magic item to boost it, but we're in the middle of a dungeon crawl. Ooh boy.

Edit: I talked to my GM and he said to just ignore the flanking bonuses for now and buy the Int boosting item when we get out of the dungeon. Then when we level up, retrain the extra Weapon Finesse to Combat Expertise and I'll qualify for Pack Flanking once again.

there's a feat that counts as combat expertise for the purposes of prerequisites of other feats i think its called dirty trick it doesn't have an int prerequisite

Scarab Sages

Dirty Fighting, but it only counts as Combat Expertise for the prereqs of Improved Maneuver feats, not something like Pack Flanking.

Heather 540 - Did you take Pack Flanking at 3rd or 6th? (Assuming you used a bonus Teamwork Feat for it). If it was at 6th, then you can swap to something else, because it's not a permanent feat yet.

If it was at 3rd, see if your GM will let you move whatever you selected at 6th to the 3rd level feat (assuming you want it to be a permanent feat), since it wasn't technically legal to take Pack Flanking. Then swap to something else with your 6th level feat until you level to 7th and hopefully have boosted your INT so you can take Combat Expertise. At that point, you can standard action swap your 6th level bonus teamwork feat back to Pack Flanking.

If you take the Brawler dip, then you wouldn't need to boost your Int. But it sounds like you were leaning toward 4 levels of Unchained Rogue.


No. Hunters are spontaneous casters like bards. Which is odd since it's a hybrid of druid and ranger and they are both prepared casters.

I took it at third. We've already been playing a few sessions at level 6 so I don't think he'll let me do that.


Heather 540 wrote:

No. Hunters are spontaneous casters like bards. Which is odd since it's a hybrid of druid and ranger and they are both prepared casters.

I took it at third. We've already been playing a few sessions at level 6 so I don't think he'll let me do that.

if it was your level 6 feat As a standard action, the hunter can choose to learn a new bonus teamwork feat in place of the most recent bonus teamwork feat she has already learned. In effect, the hunter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. She can change only the most recent teamwork feat gained, and must meet the prerequisites for the newly selected feat. A hunter can change her most recent teamwork feat a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Whenever she gains a new teamwork feat, her previous teamwork feats become permanent. so by raw you can swap it out

Scarab Sages

You can swap your most recent bonus teamwork feat as a standard action up to your Wisdom bonus times a day. That part is built into the class. So switching the 6th level feat to something else shouldn't be an issue, and switching it to Pack Flanking when you hit 7th shouldn't be an issue either. It doesn't become a permanent feat until you hit 9th level Hunter and get another bonus feat.

It's just a question of whether or not he'll let you swap out the earlier feat you didn't realize was illegal to take. Most GMs would probably be reasonable about that part.

EDIT: Ninja'd


I can ask him the next time we play.


tried looking for a rogue archetype that would grant combat expertise for free sadly no luck but there is the swashbuckler archetype which will let you take combat trick 2 times instead of just one so it will shore up lost combat feats eventually


I think I figured out the build I'll use.

I'll retrain Weapon Finesse for Combat Expertise and take Paired Opportunists at character level 7.

I'll get a regular feat and rogue talent at level 2 of rogue AKA character level 9. I'll take Boon Companion and Ninja Trick, taking Pressure Points.

At level 3 of rogue, I'll retrain Dervish Dance into Shield Focus.

At level 8 Hunter AKA character level 11, I'm considering Expanded Arcana to get an extra spell. Or I could take Extra Rogue Talent to get Bleeding Attack or something.

At level 4 Rogue, I'll go with the Combat Trick to get Mounted Combat, which'll help keep Mick alive and leave room open for feats like Trample later.

Level 9 of Hunter will be character level 13 so I'll get one regular feat and a bonus teamwork feat. For the regular feat, I'll take whichever one I don't take at level 8 hunter or Mounted Shield. Shake It Off as the teamwork feat.


Hunter Teamwork tweaks:

* Two levels of Fighter (Drill Sergeant) will give you three feats and the Tactician ability.
* Buy a Commander's Helm and get yet another Teamwork feat to share with Mr. Snuggles.


I will think about taking some fighter levels. The Commander's Helm is a dwarf item. And Mr. Snuggles is my wizard's fox familiar.


Heather 540 wrote:
I will think about taking some fighter levels. The Commander's Helm is a dwarf item. And Mr. Snuggles is my wizard's fox familiar.

Have you read this incredibly useful guide to teamwork feats? It may alter your build plans.

Scarab Sages

Heather 540 wrote:

I think I figured out the build I'll use.

I'll retrain Weapon Finesse for Combat Expertise and take Paired Opportunists at character level 7.

I'll get a regular feat and rogue talent at level 2 of rogue AKA character level 9. I'll take Boon Companion and Ninja Trick, taking Pressure Points.

At level 3 of rogue, I'll retrain Dervish Dance into Shield Focus.

At level 8 Hunter AKA character level 11, I'm considering Expanded Arcana to get an extra spell. Or I could take Extra Rogue Talent to get Bleeding Attack or something.

At level 4 Rogue, I'll go with the Combat Trick to get Mounted Combat, which'll help keep Mick alive and leave room open for feats like Trample later.

Level 9 of Hunter will be character level 13 so I'll get one regular feat and a bonus teamwork feat. For the regular feat, I'll take whichever one I don't take at level 8 hunter or Mounted Shield. Shake It Off as the teamwork feat.

Sounds like you're getting it figured out. And sounds fun.

I find most of the Rogue Talents underwhelming, so I almost always end up taking the feat options with my Rogue Talent (Weapon Training for Weapon Focus, for example). Which means that I'd recommend against spending an actual feat on Extra Rogue Talent.

For the level 11 feat, I'd recommend one of these:

Accomplished Sneak Attacker to raise your sneak attack 1d6.

Outflank (If you don't already have it) for a bonus for you and your animal, plus extra AoOs when you crit. I've never been completely clear not he interaction between Outflank AoOs and Paired Opportunist, but there are threads that explain it. This also pairs well with Pack Flanking.

Phalanx Fighter (the Teamwork feat) if you're good aligned. Bonus to hit and save when adjacent to your animal against evil creatures.

Precise Strike for another 1d6 precision damage when you are flanking.

Basically, since you share all of your teamwork feats with your animal, there are many, many better options than Bleeding Attack, or even really than Expanded Arcana. But if you find there are spells you really want, that one might be ok.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that you can only add one rogue talent effect to a sneak attack at a time. So if you have Pressure Points, you can't also use Bleeding Attack on the same sneak attack. It's one or the other. You are much better off with a feat that applies all the time (or nearly all the time) than taking a second option for a sneak attack rider.


Just remember that if you retrain Dervish dance, your scimitar no longer qualifies as a finesse weapon, and doesn't qualify for the U.C. rogue Finesse training.

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