I started physical tabletop games almost 2 years ago and Pathfinder Society Campaign was something I was able to do for nearly a year before work changes made it hard to do once-per-week games. Even when I did there was always the problem is a list of things I wasnt allowed to do because of the pathfinder Society Campaign. I followed to rules but didnt have any fun. I just kept hoping at some point someone would make a regular Pathfinder group so I could make my own decisions without character and action railroading.
Pathfinder has all sorts of official and unofficial rules but instead of using friendly and reasonable agreements between players or in other words House Rules there is a widespread organized campaign that bans not 3rd party material but also a lot of officially released Paizo material.
To me having lower level caps(because of adventure packs), restrictions of classes, archetypes, feats, etc, and linear progress in experience, money, and equipment just ruins things. I can see there are benefits within the gameplay however those could easily be houseruled in but you cannot houserule OUT the drawbacks of the Pathfinder Soceity and still be in the organized campaign.
What I really dont understand is the point of teh restrictions in a non-competitive campaign. If players were fighting each other then trying to make things balanced would at least be understandable. Instead its just hurting freedom for certain players and their choices, so its prejudice.
I didnt do anything to cause the ban but Im still negatively affected by it. I sincerely want to play Pathfinder, just not with all the bans.
The bans and restrictions are there for reasons. Some are because of DMing variation. Some are because they're too powerful compared to other options. Ultimately, the organized campaign needs certain restrictions within it to try to maintain a relatively uniform quality. And over-powered options or ones that require a lot of DM adjudication (like setting the price of a newly crafted magic item) are unlikely to see relatively uniform treatment across the whole campaign - so they are kept out of the campaign.
The people running the organized campaign feel that they will be more successful keeping the fun level higher with the restrictions than by giving all players carte blanche. And I agree with them.
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The bans are in place, largely, to help curb the power of PCs and maintain something close to a balanced gameplay experience.
This is important for organized play because:
1) Most GMs are not experienced enough to implement their own house rules. Some GMs have been running d20 games for over a decade and still haven't developed the skills to balance gameplay well. Game design is hard. That doesn't mean that every restriction/ban the PFS administration puts in place is good - many of them aren't any better equipped than the GMs and players - but we have to start somewhere.
2) The nature of Organized Play means you are often going to be playing with strangers. These strangers are under no incentive to consider your fun or the fun of other players. The parental hand of the PFS leadership is there to reduce the number of ways toxic players can run away with the game.
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I sincerely want to play Pathfinder, just not with all the bans
There are many ways to play Pathfinder and the Organized Play Campaign is but one. However, it does not sound as if the Organized Play Campaign is a good fit for you. I suggest you organize your own home game and allow any rules you like, even those in third party books. You can use the Organized Play Campaign as a “recruiting tool” to find players for your game (maybe even someone willing to GM). It’s been my experience that many players involved in the Organized Play Campaign are hungry for more opportunities to play and would happily join a home game that is “less restrictive” than PFS Play.
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Lots to unpack here. Let's see if I can address the issues one at a time:
Well, to be fair, there ARE house rules. They're listed in the Campaign Clarifications document and in the Guide to Organized Play
However, that's not really what your asking, I think. You're wanting to know why you and your GM can't agree together on a few things that, well, aren't in the rules but really ought to work a certain way, so for today that's how it's going to be. The answer to that is simple: In a campaign like this, the design is to have the player experience as common across tables as possible. Now, we all know that doesn't happen perfectly - some GM's have a better grasp of the rules than others. Some GM's are more charismatic, and some GM's are better storytellers. But the basic idea is a sound one, at least in my opinion. I like the idea that if I go from my home in Tennessee to Sweden and play a PFS game, I'm still going to have a pretty good idea of how the world works. (Nobody's going to say, "Oh, well, at my table we consider potions to be weapon-like and let you draw them as part of a movement - provided you have a bandolier. What do you mean, you don't have a bandolier?")
The company line, as I understand it, is that Pathfinder (the product) and Pathfinder Society (the Organized Play campaign) have different goals. As such, the product folks have a lot of freedom to create and publish items, feats, and spells that may or may not fit well within the setting. Like any good game runner (a role often filled by the GM), the Organized Play staff have selected items and abilities that seem to fit well within the setting.
I have not, personally, found the restrictions to be strangling. Quite the contrary - there is SO MUCH available that I have a hard time, in some cases, deciding what character to build next.
Two reasons:
First, ever been in a pickup game of basketball where the goal was always to "feed Megan. Just get Megan the ball."
Not so much fun. Yes, maybe you came out with a win, but you also probably walked away thinking, "Geez, I could've stayed home." So while this isn't a competitive event, it is important for everyone to have fun. And when one person is severely overshadowing everyone else, it stops being fun. (Honestly, it can stop being fun for that person, too.)
Second, the writers have to base their writing on the expected power level of the target PCs. So keeping game balance roughly the same is important. Introducing third party material (or even some of the really overpowered Paizo material) into the campaign makes that impossible, and you end up with PC gods fighting ants, or you end up with dead PCs.
Now, Organized campaigns aren't everyone's preference; I get that. You may decide that you'd rather play a game where your good friend Ellie runs a game she makes up as she goes for you and a few other people, and that's awesome. (If you were in my area, I'd ask for an invite!) But hopefully, at least, this will give you a little better idea of why Organized Play campaigns do things the way they do.
I would personally like to see a half-and half approach to some of the ideas in pathfinder Society Campaign.
#1 Lack of permanent loot and general consequences of decisions. You dont get to keep anything you find and no long term effect of actions. So searching for anything whether is is items of side quests is mostly a waste of time. Best case you find things that are temporarily useful.
#2 the Adventure Mart style economy lacks the creativity of buying, selling, haggling and especially making equipment. You can buy basically anything but that also means rarity isnt a factor. Finding something like a deposit of Mithril is pointless.
#3 All or Nothing scenario rewards. This is major issue for me. I hated going 5-6 hours(or even weeks) to get any experience, gold, and as a consequence any character improvements. Save a random person, want to become Mayor? Doesnt matter, its not an objective.
If you balanced those out a campaign would be possible for both low and high complexity players. Actually that can sum up many of the problems with the Pathfinder Society Campaign. Its simplifying things to make it Pathfinder Lite.
Now the other areas about "Overpowered" characters is opinion based. To even make one it is a complex system of choices with benefits and drawbacks. This is comparable to one person saying reading the manual gives another person an unfair advantage. Considering Tabletop games, especially Roleplaying games are heavily base around reading the manuals and imaginative thinking I find this a laughable contradiction of the intent.
Of course even if you have multiple guides it still takes time to develop a character. Is you character "overpowered" at level 20? that is fair if you start at level 1 probably with numerous flaws and ongoing drawbacks.
On a similar topic I recently found a group using 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons rules and in its core rules it similarly has a vast reduction in the complexity AND the rewards for thinking within and outside of the rules. I saw a video summarizing 5th edition as checkers to Pathfinder being Chess.
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I would personally like to see a half-and half approach to some of the ideas in pathfinder Society Campaign.
#1 Lack of permanent loot and general consequences of decisions. You dont get to keep anything you find and no long term effect of actions. So searching for anything whether is is items of side quests is mostly a waste of time. Best case you find things that are temporarily useful.
#2 the Adventure Mart style economy lacks the creativity of buying, selling, haggling and especially making equipment. You can buy basically anything but that also means rarity isnt a factor. Finding something like a deposit of Mithril is pointless.
#3 All or Nothing scenario rewards. This is major issue for me. I hated going 5-6 hours(or even weeks) to get any experience, gold, and as a consequence any character improvements. Save a random person, want to become Mayor? Doesnt matter, its not an objective.
If you balanced those out a campaign would be possible for both low and high complexity players. Actually that can sum up many of the problems with the Pathfinder Society Campaign. Its simplifying things to make it Pathfinder Lite....
#1: Everything you find contributes to your end of scenario rewards so finding it is absolutely worth it and nowhere near a waste of time. And a fair amount of the time the items you find can be useful to the situation at hand
#2: The buying and selling is literally just using the system from the CRB. And you're nowhere near being able to buy "basically anything". Outside of some always available items you're purchases are limited by your fame which represents your ability to find rarer items and such. You're also based out of Absalom, you know, the largest city in Golarion. So it makes perfect sense that you would be able to find most things as long as you have the fame to access the right connections.
#3: This just isn't true. The guide straight up has rules for what you get if you have to leave early. Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure you get full rewards if you played at least 50% of the scenario. Also a typical scenario is gonna be around 4-5 hours not 5-6. "Want to become the mayor" is something so far removed from the type of campaign PFS is that it would make no sense for you to be able to or get rewarded for doing that. You're a PFS field agent, not a politician running for office in whatever country you're visiting for that scenario.
On a similar topic I recently found a group using 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons rules and in its core rules it similarly has a vast reduction in the complexity AND the rewards for thinking within and outside of the rules. I saw a video summarizing 5th edition as checkers to Pathfinder being Chess.
It's entirely possible one set of rules doesn't appeal to you, but the video summarizing 5th edition as checkers to Pathfinder as chess is largely going to be full of crap. Pathfinder certainly has more complex mechanics in general, but comparing RPGs using board games as metaphors is going to be full of half-assed generalizations that completely gloss over the sources of complexity that aren't derived from the mechanics - the roles players take on and the adventures they pursue - neither of which are significantly represented in any comparison between 5e and Pathfinder as checkers vs chess.
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want to become Mayor? Doesnt matter, its not an objective.
Gonna hone in here real quick. There are PLENTY of things that are available either generally or via specific scenarios that fit similar bills to this. There's a system of Vanities for general purchase using prestige, most of which fall under the Pathfinder Society Field Guide or Pathfinder Society Primer. Options include, but are not limited to:
- Owning a business, such as a concert hall, tattoo parlor, artisan shop, or underground business.
- Hiring followers, such as chroniclers, guides, heralds, or porters.
- Obtaining membership to some organizations, such as hunting lodges or monasteries.
- Purchasing property, up to and including a coastal island or a Pathfinder Lodge.
Some chronicles include additional rewards, like the opportunity to marry into a noble family. Whether this meets your particular threshold of reasonableness is not something I can determine, but to say that these things just don't exist is objectively false. Every one of these things includes some sort of mechanical benefit, as well.
Of course, your character could also have non-mechanical affiliations, as well. Locally, there's a character who is known very well for having completely derailed an entire module by successfully impersonating a dead noble. He continues to use that persona and claims to own a town as a result. This never has any impact in adventures, but it's part of the character's history and personality. These are the stories that the organized play setting can't tell with mechanics, but become part of the region headcanon, as it were.
So sure, you can become mayor of some town. Just don't expect it to be something that the scenarios kowtow towards later, because you'll just be another Prince of Augustana as far as the town is concerned.
the rewards for the scenario are set. There are different reward brackets between full and partial completing but its not like your DM can put in a a Vorpal Axe +2 for you to find and keep.
I forgot about the unlocking part. You have to unlock things before you can buy them. So yes you do not have immediate access to +2 magical Belts and the like.
As for #3-B thats just the train on railroad, cant you hear the choo-choo.
Trying anything not specifically covered in the scenarios doesnt do much. Thats more a problem with scenarios being limited in their scope. The campaign's scope is that your profession is always the same, Pathfinder Guilder. Any time I hear about wanting to do something like open my own business or being ruler of a territory I hear "Kingmaker" pop up.
Note: to Serisan I have never seen the option for anything like any of the things you mentioned in any Pathfinder Society scenario. I think Perplexed is a good word. So I can really hire bodyguards? Start my own magic item business? Wait do you have an actual mechanical benefit or is that all fluff? If remember right Leadership is banned.
So one person became owner of a town. Oh I see it had no effect so back to square one. Sigh, thats what I am talking about. Scenarios do not change. You can fail and adventure but its not like you ever become friends with Asmodeus.
Its a question of "Can you do it" and "does is actually matter"? The scenarios are grinds to complete them for the reward. Theres little real sense of accomplishment ESPECIALLY if you play any out of order.
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Okay This entire thread can be divided into Limited scenario options and limited character development options, the "ban list" which is the original focus. Sometimes those can collide such as wanting becoming a merchant that makes and sells items. Thats not allowed either in the campaign or through gameplay as all Crafting feats are banned. At best its fluff.
Back to the supposedly overpowered characters. Anything about that? Trying to think of an example. Oh anything related to Firearms. I think all the non-Gunslinger archetypes are banned.
Firearms are very expensive as is their ammunition. they can misfire reducing their effectiveness or outright preventing their use. They have huge weaknesses so even a little water can render them ineffective. They require special class features and feats to be able to function anywhere close to the effectiveness of far more common and cheaper Bows and Crossbows.
Advanced Firearms are better but also more expensive, rare, and difficult to maintain. All advanced Firearms are banned. Effectively this bans the Gunslinger class.
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Note: This is going to be trouble. Similar problems with the Pathfinder Society campaign are in the core 5th edition D&D rules. 5th edition is from what I have read(havent played 4th) a combination of 4th and 3.5 editions. Feats are optional trade-offs for Ability Score increases, and there are none for anything like Crafting. Crafting doesnt exist in 5th edition for example.
I was talking to a friend in a 5ed group and trying to explain the differences between the systems like BAB, Fort/Reflex/Will, and going into the differences between spells and lack thereof in 5ed.
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f players were fighting each other then trying to make things balanced would at least be understandable. Instead its just hurting freedom for certain players and their choices, so its prejudice.
okay, first off godwining the discussion right off the bat is putting way too much emotional investment into a game. No rational, sane argument is going to make any sense to someone equating a ban on third party material with being physically attacked and put at risk of life and limb.
Only after you've adjusted the grarg factor off of you are literally killing me here consider the following:
Most DMs bad stuff. Most DMs ban a LOT of stuff. Most DMs ban WAY more stuff than PFS. You are not comparing PFS to most DMs, you are comparing pfs to the ontological manifestation of the platonic ideal of a perfect DM: something that simply doesn't exist.
That is not a fair comparison.
Firearms are very expensive as is their ammunition. they can misfire reducing their effectiveness or outright preventing their use. They have huge weaknesses so even a little water can render them ineffective. They require special class features and feats to be able to function anywhere close to the effectiveness of far more common and cheaper Bows and Crossbows.
Advanced Firearms are better but also more expensive, rare, and difficult to maintain. All advanced Firearms are banned. Effectively this bans the Gunslinger class.
I have sat in at least 50 games with at least 10 different gun slingers on both sides of the screen across 6 states and if you include online, most of the planet. Every single one of them was at the very least competent at dealing damage, and most of the time "the gunslinger goes everything dies here's the loot". The other ones were low level.
You are calling what is widely known to be one of the most powerful and lethal classes (to the point of being problematic) in the game "unplayable" because of perceived, theoretical downsides that simply do not bear out in play.
I don't know if you were having CR +8 fights in your home campaign, are making hyperbolic statements as a deliberate point of rhetoric, or are just theorycrafting and getting it really, really wrong but either way all this demonstrates is that the experience you expect is so radically different from a PFS scenario as to be a completely different type of game than what PFS can provide if not a different system altogether.
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I don't know if you were having CR +8 fights in your home campaign, are making hyperbolic statements as a deliberate point of rhetoric, or are just theorycrafting and getting it really, really wrong but either way all this demonstrates is that the experience you expect is so radically different from a PFS scenario as to be a completely different type of game than what PFS can provide if not a different system altogether.
...your DM can put in a a Vorpal Axe +2 for you to find and keep....
...you do not have immediate access to +2 magical Belts and the like...
...its not like you ever become friends with Asmodeus...
...advanced Firearms are banned. Effectively this bans the Gunslinger class...
I sincerely want to play Pathfinder, just not with all the bansThere are many ways to play Pathfinder and the Organized Play Campaign is but one. However, it does not sound as if the Organized Play Campaign is a good fit for you. I suggest you organize your own home game and allow any rules you like, even those in third party books. {. . .}
I really wish I could find people playing a home game, AND find time to get in on it. Maybe one of these days I can get in on a PbP (they're HERE(*)) to accomplish the internet-distributed equivalent of the former; the latter is going to have to wait until I get past what has turned out to be a VERY NASTY bottleneck(**) at work . . . .
(*)If the original poster DOESN'T have the second problem that I have, this link may prove useful.
(**)If this was a group inclined to White Wolf/Mage The Ascension, I would say that I have somehow managed to run afoul of Paradox. I guess it's an occupational hazard when performing Modern Necromancy Life Science Research . . . .
If its not obvious yet then Ill explain. The Pathfinder Society campaign is what is available to me. I dont have a problem with Pathfinder. In fact is quite like it for all the options. No the problem is I dont have a great deal of time to go looking for groups if I dont like the campaign. I was fortunate to find an RPG group at a local game store.
I dont know all the hot spots for looking for groups. Ive tried different ones.
Two options I am trying are to either see if some players from the Society group I used to play are willing to do a homebrew adventure. The other is to see if a group my friend introduced to me fits my late night work schedule is willing to play 3.5 or Pathfinder.
I try imagine what can be imagined. I havent met a GM that bans things, its the campaign(Pathfinder) or rules(D&D 5) that do that.
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Okay back to it. Im definitely a single player as the goal of any single player game is to find the secrets. I dont understand "professional" Roleplayers who go on about things being overpowered unless you are against other people like Counterstrike. In single players game youre supposed to find the best things, like Ultima Weapon in a Final Fantasy game. To me so long as you have to work towards something then that is remuneration for your efforts. Its broken is you get a +5 Vorpal Two-Handed sword from a chest on your first adventure.
in a RPG finding different combinations is something I would encourage. Its not as much a chore as pre-internet days as you can find guides for things but even then I go though plenty just looking at hundreds of spells, classes, archetypes, etc. So banning anything is a middle finger to my efforts.
I think I am an idealist that I want people to not be jerks so everyone doesnt have a narrow combination of the "best" things. At the same time Ive never been in a group that loopholes everything the DM sets up ruining every adventure.
Bare minimum IF the Pathfinder Society campaign had level 15+ scenarios I could at least play that. When I played in the campaign much of my thoughts were to reach level 14 and find and actual Homebrew campaign to move my character into. I didnt succeed at either. So now its either play handicapped Pathfinder, handicapped 5th edition, or single player RPGs by myself.
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I think I can summarize things. You other players can play any setting, any class, archetype, race, alignment and you ignore ALL of that to play in a narrow area. Oh I am so envious of all the possibilities you take for granted. I want to hit into the wall at all the things you take for granted that I cannot even try.
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Note: to Serisan I have never seen the option for anything like any of the things you mentioned in any Pathfinder Society scenario. I think Perplexed is a good word. So I can really hire bodyguards? Start my own magic item business? Wait do you have an actual mechanical benefit or is that all fluff? If remember right Leadership is banned.
So one person became owner of a town. Oh I see it had no effect so back to square one. Sigh, thats what I am talking about. Scenarios do not change. You can fail and adventure but its not like you ever become friends with Asmodeus.
Its a question of "Can you do it" and "does is actually matter"? The scenarios are grinds to complete them for the reward. Theres little real sense of accomplishment ESPECIALLY if you play any out of order.
What you've posted here tells me that you are not a good fit for the organized play campaign. That's ok. It's not for everybody. Paragraph by paragraph:
- Each of the vanities has a specific mechanical effect. They're from a legal resource. You can fluff around them, but the basic thing is that they provide a mechanical benefit for you to play off of. Note that the "hirelings" are non-combat only. There are legal choices for gold-purchased buddies, usually animals. I know someone using one of those to great effect. It's not an animal companion, but still works just fine.
- Scenarios and story arcs do change, just not based on a single player. There is a reporting system that tells the Paizo team what the playerbase-at-large decided to do on certain inflection points. It's important to remember that being part of the organized play campaign means you're one of a couple hundred thousand players.
- Scenarios are not grinds. They are self-contained adventures. Seeing them as grinds tells me that you are not (and may not ever be) the kind of person who enjoys organized play. Unlike a home game, organized play is about understanding how the world changes your character rather than how your character changes the world. Again, there's nothing wrong with your desired mode of play, but this is the reality of a campaign designed for consistency across multiple continents.
I can tell you as someone who has a level 20 character in organized play and over 100 tables of GM credit, that characters in PFS are able to have depth and meaning within the constraints provided by the campaign. Within the local lodge, there are few people who haven't heard of Venture-Captain Mystic Mickey, who founded the Zephyr Hall lodge in a reclaimed cloud castle. Other characters have incorporated Mystic Mickey into their backstory and have used him for a variety of purposes mechanically or fluff-wise. To some, he's their choice drug dealer. To others, he's the target of feats or class features that involve getting information from a trusted contact. It's not unusual for me to end up pulling out the Mickey persona while I'm playing other characters at the table because of things like this.
In my estimation, yes, you can do it and yes, it matters. That said, I am not you and it's fine if we disagree on that.
I try imagine what can be imagined. I havent met a GM that bans things, its the campaign(Pathfinder) or rules(D&D 5) that do that.
The campaign is banning things? How is the campaign banning things without the GM behind it? If you've played in a campaign where things weren't all available, then you were experiencing the GM banning things. PFS is no different except that it's a set of staff positions doing that level of GM work for the organized play campaign given its structure and needs.
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I just don't understand why there is a conversation here. Chaos wants to play a game that is fundamentally not PFS gameplay. It doesn't matter if he or she understands why the rules are the rules, they simply are the rules and must be followed. I can't go to a basketball league and say I want to play, but i don't actually want to play their game i want horse instead. It sucks that there isn't a home campaign that you could play near you but what your asking simply is very different from what pfs is.
Sidenote (more like novella): Trust me characters can be broken in a co-op game, and that can make the game not fun. For instance, Combat round one: your fighter rolls a 15+2 for initiative. My gunslinger rolls 11+11. Well I guess I'm going first, I use my boots of haste and take my 7 shots, deal 215 damage and the boss dies. Ok cool, well maybe your fighter can break down this locked door. Oh but the gunslinger took this 3rd party feat that lets him use dex to engineering, oh and he can use engineering as a strength check. You roll a 19+5, man your strong a 24 is pretty good but of the gunslinger rolled a 3, surely you beat him but no wait he adds 24 to the check. Well today wasn't your day but now we have to talk the the baron of the land to acquire provisions for the whatsamajiggit, at least the cleric can use his diplom...oh no the gunslinger gets to add his engineering to that? Oh because of his mask he can make an intimidate instead of a diplomacy? and he gets to use a strength check instead of the intimidate roll, oh and since we are back to a strength check he gets to use engineering. Oh he can use engineering or dex for every skill but like 4? Oh and he has items that just auto succeed on those, well that's good i guess. So 3 fights, 1 talk, a half pizza and a 2 liter of pop later the person playing the gunslinger thanks you for the game and leaves. You and the other players would put away your stuff, but you did that an hour ago when you realized the gunslinger was going to solo the entire adventure.
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kay back to it. Im definitely a single player as the goal of any single player game is to find the secrets.
Pathfinder as a system dies when you do this. You roll initiative, you automatically get a 30+ number, you throw a spell with a high DC and requires 6 saves, they're out of the fight and you win.
That isn't fun for most people. That isn't fun enough for most people to form a "nuke it from orbit" society that does allow everything and doesn't ban anything, as evidenced by the fact that you can find society games everywhere but can't fight the nuke it from orbit society anywhere.
Half the fun of role playing games is getting otherwise asocial to antisocial people to meet up and interact. You can't do that unless you make the game fun for enough people within a set area to come together and play. Not enough people want to play (or especially run) that game for that to come together.
I dont understand "professional" Roleplayers who go on about things being overpowered unless you are against other people like Counterstrike.
I have no idea what "professional" is supposed to mean in this context.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I have gotten a chance to play a campaign mode PFS game that let me play a catfolk bard (before there was an actual catfolk boon available at GenCon) but even that game had limits on what was allowed and what was not.
I do think that Serisan has really covered well the differences between Organized Play and home games. Oddly, if you ask me which I prefer, I will tell you that I prefer Organized Play for the most part. I like being part of a massive story with hundreds of thousands of other players in it. I love that the actions that we do matter in the long-term story... Our reporting shapes the overall campaign and our individual choices move the story forward.
I love the international nature of the campaign too. When I served as Overseer in the PBP run of Cosmic Captive, my GMs hailed from the Netherlands, Malaysia, Australia, Singapore, England, New Zealand, Switzerland and the US. We all were on the same wild ride.
★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★
But as Serisan said, PFS is not for everyone. There are non PFS games that recruit online. Many of them are in the PBP section of these forums, where there are GMs that will either homebrew or offer adventures from third party games. Have you considered getting into one of those?
Another possibility. Have you considered GMing the kind of campaign that you want to play in? If you GM something Campaign Mode in person or online, chances are much better that you will find something like that as a player. Why? Because a lot of other GMs like doing GM trades where they GM for someone that volunteered to GM for them. If you bring others joy, chances are they will want to bring it back to you.
Hmm
See Im a new player to tabletop RPGs. Ive played Fallout 1 and 2 a lot though. Multiple ways to deal with problems. Its possible to finish the games without even fighting or to finish every quest as you can be Fighter/Thief/Negotiator.
I imagine creative adventures going off the rails. Players thinking outside the box to not only finish a quest but do things unexpected like found a city, become a business tycoon and be more than just a murder-hobo.
Part of the problem is well webcomics. They make roleplaying into an imaginative paradise. Im disappointed that things are instead about following linear scenario paths.
How about instead of going into the goblin cave to kill the goblins, you negotiate a business a agreement for the goblins to have farming and fishing tools and maybe write a set of laws. Or barricade the entrance and starve them out instead?
Why arent there any level 15+ scenarios and adventures?
Why are Crafting feats banned in the Society campaign? And by extension why cant I earn money or acquire items not on the scenario list?
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I can say that, while at times I am baffled and/or frustrated with PFS leadership's decisions on what gets approved, it's still better than flinging open the floodgates.
Considering the sort of messed up abominations I've created in more permissive games, I shudder to envision the havoc people like me could wreak upon a hyperpermissive organized play environment.
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Why arent there any level 15+ scenarios and adventures?
All For Immortality: First Taste of Eternity
All For Immortality: All the Gods BeyondAll For Immortality: Serpent's Fall
Unleashing the Untouchable
The Moonscar
The Witchwar Legacy
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See Im a new player to tabletop RPGs. Ive played Fallout 1 and 2 a lot though. Multiple ways to deal with problems. Its possible to finish the games without even fighting or to finish every quest as you can be Fighter/Thief/Negotiator.
I imagine creative adventures going off the rails. Players thinking outside the box to not only finish a quest but do things unexpected like found a city, become a business tycoon and be more than just a murder-hobo.
Part of the problem is well webcomics. They make roleplaying into an imaginative paradise. Im disappointed that things are instead about following linear scenario paths.
How about instead of going into the goblin cave to kill the goblins, you negotiate a business a agreement for the goblins to have farming and fishing tools and maybe write a set of laws. Or barricade the entrance and starve them out instead?
Why arent there any level 15+ scenarios and adventures?
Why are Crafting feats banned in the Society campaign? And by extension why cant I earn money or acquire items not on the scenario list?
I've played scenarios where my guy ran around a fortress flinging little baggies of Gold Pieces at minions to get them to go home. I "defeated" them by outbidding their boss.
I've seen entire modules completed through solely diplomatic means, with no attacks made (weapons were drawn...to solve puzzles)
There are level 15+ adventures. They're Pathfinder Modules and chapters from Adventure Paths, but PFS has rules for running that.
Crafting feats are banned because PFS has technically endless downtime between adventures (thus eliminating the biggest limitation on crafting feats I've seen most GMs use), a deliberately balanced system for character wealth, and an inability to cross-reference who has what feats. "Why yes, I do have a +1 Holy Keen Ghost Touch Scimitar at level 7, last session I adventured with a level 10 Wizard with Craft Magic Arms and Armor."
You can put ranks in a Craft, Perform, or Profession skill (or others with vanities) and roll Day Job checks at the end of scenarios. The money your character earns isn't super high (my characters earn 50-75 extra GP a scenario normally), but it is still nice. You aren't limited to the scenario list for equipment, your character just needs to have a high enough fame score to find someone willing to sell/craft you said item.
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How about instead of going into the goblin cave to kill the goblins, you negotiate a business a agreement for the goblins to have farming and fishing tools and maybe write a set of laws.
You have written something down. The goblins set it on fire, set you on fire, try to kill you, and then set you on fire again.
Because they wouldn't be goblins if they didn't do that.
Now KOBOLDS you can do that with. Not only is that possible in pfs, not only have i actually done that in PFS, but there's an exchange card goal that specifically tells you to do that sort of thing.
Resolve a combat encounter nonviolently through bribery, diplomacy, trickery, or a similar tactic.
In fact, you have to do that TWICE to meet the goal.
I think you have a slightly skewed or either/or view of what PFS is and how it works.
Or barricade the entrance and starve them out instead?
1) boring
2) not going to work, there's another entrance3) not going to work, they'll tunnel out somewhere else
There are other people at the table who also want to have fun. That idea probably includes getting to play their character in combat a bit. They don't want to just sit around and watch you be awesome.
This is not a single player computer game. It is not, and absolutely cannot be all about you because there are 100,000 various definitions of you.
Why are Crafting feats banned in the Society campaign?
Because someone that takes them (especially craft wondrous item) can easily double their wealth by level and that is entirely too powerful.
And by extension why cant I earn money
That would be the dayjob check.
If you mean why can't I use my totally cool infinite money scheme, because having unlimited money wrecks the expected power curve.
or acquire items not on the scenario list?
You can actually. The fame mechanic lets you do that, to the point that fame isn't really a limiting factor after a big purchase or two.
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I've played scenarios where my guy ran around a fortress flinging little baggies of Gold Pieces at minions to get them to go home. I "defeated" them by outbidding their boss.
One of my favorite suggestions is to hold out a bag of 50 GP and suggest they take this 50 gp and...
...go to the bar
...take up an apprenticeship
...go home, your mom kept your basement slash room ready for you
...go see the world like you always wanted to
...buy that pretty girl a ring and ask her to marry you
As a card carrying exchange member i can even get the money back if i get a receipt.
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*1 How about instead of going into the goblin cave to kill the goblins, you negotiate a business a agreement for the goblins to have farming and fishing tools and maybe write a set of laws. Or barricade the entrance and starve them out instead?*2 Why arent there any level 15+ scenarios and adventures?
3* Why are Crafting feats banned in the Society campaign? And by extension why cant I earn money or acquire items not on the scenario list?
I'll go point by point here and for comparisons i will liken it to fallout, although i feel dragon age may be a more apt comparison.
[Edit]Adding a spoiler tag because i think BNW hit my points in much fewer words1. I feel you may have a misunderstanding on how scenarios and most of society play functions. So your a wanderer and you just got out of the vault. You know your at point A and you need to get to point B. Now if you were playing a single player game you very well might go from point A to C then Q then every other letter, even some you made up, before going to B. However, the rest of your table maybe only gets to play once a week, and they want to get from A to B in say 4 or 5 hours. So we go back to the beginning. To keep people on track the scenario for the GM will say "once the pc's are aware of the goblin cave a dc 10 Survival check gets them there without being lost, if the pc's fail the survivor in area F will already be dead. Now maybe you get to the door and it says "the pc's may attempt a disable device, strength check, or another suitable skill/spell to open the door." So the Pc's try and they fail but someone has the idea that they speak goblin, what if the yell for someone to come to the door, then talk their way in. So they do and you have successfully gone "off the rails" There are more then one way to deal with problems, but in the same way that if in fallout you only focus on the science skill, eventually you hit a point where the game says "no you have to fight this guys" or "no you lv 2's cant attack the king." And while your right there likely wont be a moment where the paper says, if one of the pc's holds an estate of 10 acres or more give them a bonus of *blank* That is where your roleplaying comes in. Maybe the barbarian doesn't give two craps about the princess and just wants to kill the dragon. Maybe the sorcerer who has draconic blood wants to subdue it. Society is more constrained than a full open sandbox, but it has to be that for reasons i will explain.
2. There are, they are fewer and further in between , but they are there. Now some have stated that paizo has done market research and that it has shown that people only really "want to play" in the approximate 3-7 range. Personally i think it is a load of malarkey and i feel it is because even attempting to write a halfway linear story with high level casters is really hard. You have to start preemptively stopping things from trivializing the adventure. "oh you must go save the princess" oh scry, teleport, teleport=saved "from the giant dragons that gaur....oh wait she's saved. Well done i guess." I wish there were more high level, but I've played for 2ish years and i have several characters in the teens.
3. Oh boy here's the doozey. So it all basically boils down into control. PFS is built around the idea that i can go to any pfs event in any state and sit down and play with a character that is following the same rules as everyone else. Because when we are not using the same rules things fall apart hard. So instead of going into the goblins lair you hire a wizard to teleport you into a dragons den and you pilfer the legendary blade "haedrigon, the annihilation core king sword " it does a bajillion damages and makes the the player to your left have to give you all his snack money. So jeff brings his barbarians wielding his HACKS to a con and one shots everyone and everything. But he got it in the adventure, we just went off the rails a bit. Now obvious hyperbole aside you can see how this could get out of hand. Say the level 18 cleric in their off time goes around raising the dead for people charging cost +50% now all of a sudden that cleric could have significantly more gold then literally anyone else, then buys a bunch of gear that shouldn't be able to be afforded yet. By saying that you get the loot in the adventure and nothing else you are assuring an even playing field. That as well as the bookeeping nightmare is a big reason crafting is a no go in PFS as well.
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Why arent there any level 15+ scenarios and adventures?All For Immortality: First Taste of Eternity
All For Immortality: All the Gods Beyond
All For Immortality: Serpent's Fall
Unleashing the Untouchable
The Moonscar
The Witchwar Legacy
The back end of I believe every adventure path, race for the runecarved key, The Emerald Spire
Crafting feats are banned because PFS has technically endless downtime between adventures (thus eliminating the biggest limitation on crafting feats I've seen most GMs use), a deliberately balanced system for character wealth, and an inability to cross-reference who has what feats. "Why yes, I do have a +1 Holy Keen Ghost Touch Scimitar at level 7, last session I adventured with a level 10 Wizard with Craft Magic Arms and Armor."
You can put ranks in a Craft, Perform, or Profession...
Let me think, thats a +5 weapon so it would take 50 days to make Of course it also requires a specific feat, classes for particular spells, and so on.
a GM could just say those days are in real time and/or the materials are 50,000gold to avoid the exact circumstances of turning up with weekly.
And then consider that the point of crafting feats is for players to make and control their own economy. Pathfinder Society Guilders are just more "official" murder-hobos.There are cliches/tropes about that such Off The Rails, and Dungeon Bypass.
This can go on forever. Every problem presented are about decisions between players and game masters to resolve. Ideally the game master makes fun adventure whether its by making combat difficult, putting in challenges the party isnt ready for such as negotiations or stealth for a combat heavy party.
As GMs have so much power ingame things are supposed to an imagination war between the players and the GM.
On the other hand its up to the players to not just defeat the adventure but the GM. The greatest goal I can think of in any RPG is defeating the game creator. Someone needs to resurrect Gary Gygax.
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All Material playable at level 15+ in PFS
4-SP Race for the Runecarved Key 1-20
5-SP Siege of the Diamond City 1-15
7-20 AFI p1 12-15
7-26 AFI p2 12-15
7-29 AFI p2 12-15
8-25 Unleashing the Untouchable 12-15
MOD Tomb of the Iron Medusa 13-16
MOD The Moonscar 15-17
MOD The Witchwar Legacy 16-18
MOD Wardens of the Reborn Forge p3 13-15
MOD Feast of Dust p3 14-16
AP RotR p5 14-16
AP RotR p6 16-18
AP Mummy's Mask p6 15-17
AP Carrion Crown p6 13-15
AP Reign of Winter p5 13-15
AP Reign of Winter p6 15-17
AP Jade Regeny p6 14-16
AP Skull & SShackles p6 13-15
AP Shattered Star p5 13-15
AP Shattered Star p6 16-18
AP Giantslayer 5p 14-16
AP Giantslayer 6p 16-17
AP Iron Gods p6 15-17
AP Iron Gods p5 13-15
AP Hell's Rebels p6 16-18
AP Curse of the Crimson Throne p5 13-15
AP Curse of the Crimson Throne p6 15-17
AP Serpent's Skull pt 13-15
AP Serpent's Skull p6 16-18
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As GMs have so much power ingame things are supposed to an imagination war between the players and the GM.
On the other hand its up to the players to not just defeat the adventure but the GM. The greatest goal I can think of in any RPG is defeating the game creator.
So this mentality works fine in a home campaign, but again because we need a set of rules that applies to everything things can't function that way. GM's aren't the all-powerful deity in PFS. They are an avatar of the rules. It's that way for a reason. The same ability to let your GM say "nah this lightning bolt totally is conducted by the water" can let them say "nah you can't play your summoner I think they are op" The GM's are allowed a level of power to handle many issues that may arise such as, what is the dc for lifting this wagon. How many gallons of ale can one orc drink. Could many DM's respect how things work, sure. Could many players respect what items they could or couldn't have, sure. But one guy going to gencon with Broken McStabby Death could ruin 30 people day. Even if only 1 out of 20 people would say "yah i just had a wizard make this +9 lightsaber" that ruins the game for enough people they have to make rules to avoid it.
Again, no hostility meant, I just don't think PFS is for you. Your issues are with the very core of what PFS is. To be honest what you seem to want is a sandbox single player RPG. I'd recommend looking at some of the MMO's that are around. I don't know many home campaigns that have the level of freedom you seem to want. If you ever want to go and try it, doors are always open. but I really would be surprised if you found it enjoyable.
Mih Erofeb Wob lliw uoy dna sesir uluhtc
I think I am in Bizarro World where I find RPGs are linear and videogames are open world . There is more freedom to be found in Fallout 1 from 20 years ago then in the scenarios at the present.
I dont know how long youve played games that open worlds are no longer interesting to you and everything comes out as "someone did [blank] so now I dont have fun(and dont want anyone else the choice)". To me they are a luxury, hard to find and different. You are blaise about it and dont even care about what youve lost.
You think a +9 Lightsaber in Pathfinder is a bad thing. I think is an interesting puzzle to legally represent one using the ingame rules.
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Mih Erofeb Wob lliw uoy dna sesir uluhtc
I think I am in Bizarro World where I find RPGs are linear and videogames are open world . There is more freedom to be found in Fallout 1 from 20 years ago then in the scenarios at the present.
I dont know how long youve played games that open worlds are no longer interesting to you and everything comes out as "someone did [blank] so now I dont have fun(and dont want anyone else the choice)". To me they are a luxury, hard to find and different. You are blaise about it and dont even care about what youve lost.
You think a +9 Lightsaber in Pathfinder is a bad thing. I think is an interesting puzzle to legally represent one using the ingame rules.
I find open worlds incredibly fun I have 600+ hours of pc skyrim alone, probably 2500 on fallout as a franchise, I've played wow since burning crusade. I spent a hundred hours building my house on fallout. I've had fun playing with OP mods on skyrim. I had max crafting on wow across multiple accounts before i ever did a raid. But with a tabletop RPG you are with other people. Can you imagine playing a 5 person co-op of fallout where you just watch a guy build a house, or a skyrim where he is level 1-bijillion and one shots everything with his lightsaber mod. If you want a sandbox one person RPG im sure you could find a way to make it work but what you want is hard with a dedicated group of friends with a lot of time on their hands let alone a group of people who meet once a week to play DnD.
I think that yes a fun balanced lightsaber representation would be cool. My newest character is the hulk and my second pc was spiderman. Finding cool ways to make new things is fun. But the +9 lightsaber crap is borderline shoolyard nonsense of "nuh uh my monster has an ati lightsaber shield" "well my lightsaber is a special anti lightsaber shield lightsaber."
So you have 6 friends come over on their one day off to play this new game that came out, but you want to spend the entire night in character creation. Do you not see the problem there? your idea of an ideal RPG simply cannot function as a multiplayer game.
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Mih Erofeb Wob lliw uoy dna sesir uluhtc
I think I am in Bizarro World where I find RPGs are linear and videogames are open world . There is more freedom to be found in Fallout 1 from 20 years ago then in the scenarios at the present.
I dunno, last time I checked Fallout was a single player RPG that doesn't have to account for multiple players, a "computer" that could vary in permissiveness from session to session, or a range of solutions not programmable for. With all the variables in play, the experience will naturally be more linear by necessity.
Maybe you should focus less on trying to make Organized Play what it can never be and more on finding people willing to join in on your game of Kingmaker, Ire of the Storm, or whatever sort of homebrew floats your boat.
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So many of these threads lately. OP isn't even listening to the explanations folks are giving. His concept of play is not compatible with PFS so rather than him adapting, PFS MUST change to fit him. He can't find a home game for reasons that are becoming clearer by the post and he can't understand why PFS can't be exactly as he wants it despite many clear and well articulated explanations. Ugh.
Have to say I'm continually impressed by BigNorseWolf's thoughtful, well reasoned and patient responses to so many topics.
Well Its my weekend and today is weekly Pathfinder Society day at the local game store. Im going to try to play.
Still trying to find out how I can get more gold and items from the scenarios.
I dont think I will be able to find an RPG group as I work nights. If you know any 10pm-2am Groups using Tabletop Simulator please tell me.
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Well Its my weekend and today is weekly Pathfinder Society day at the local game store. Im going to try to play.
Still trying to find out how I can get more gold and items from the scenarios.
I dont think I will be able to find an RPG group as I work nights. If you know any 10pm-2am Groups using Tabletop Simulator please tell me.
I hope you have fun!
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So many of these threads lately.
Have to say I'm continually impressed by BigNorseWolf's thoughtful, well reasoned and patient responses to so many topics.
this^^^. i get to play in 2 home games every week, another once a month and GM one every other opposite PFS. can say that all have there own home rules in which couldn't play the same character in all those games.
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I suggest the OP try out the D&D Adventurer's League. Sure it's a different game, but the structure of organized play is similar to what the OP is suggesting.
It's one of the reason's I don't play Adventurer's League. They have an extremely loose interpretation of RAW, GMs have far too much flexibility to manipulate scenarios, loot isn't automatically shared within the group, and magic items must be split among the party.
Also, to be clear restrictions are absolutely necessary for organized play. Some people just want the widest possible ability of options and don't think campaign leadership should dictate on what they think is overpowered. That should be the decision of the game designers. If Paizo prints something it should be assumed it was vetted and found balanced. If it is unbalanced that will be revealed during play and as a community we can decided what to do from there (as was the case for the summoner, vivisectionist alchemist, etc.). But there are some options that have been banned for power levels that aren't accurate.
For myself I completely agree with campaign restrictions related to crafting, evil alignments, non-golarian archetypes, and extremely obscure / region specific abilities.
A new thing there is talk of are additional resource options being withheld for chronicles. I don't think this is a good thing. It's ok on boons because those can be rewards for GMing or a random reward on a lucky roll at a Con. But as part of a chronicle it turns that adventure into an "adventure tax" players must play to open options. Chronicle rewards should be small boosts not something essential to a character build.
Well this thread has done what i should have expected. It sent me into a depression with my hopes crushed. I want 100% access to Paizo published Pathfinder material to have freedom. I want a roleplaying experience that isnt made redundant by a videogame. In response I get people saying I should quit trying or go play a different game. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations and the only choice I have is the Pathfinder Society Campaign with level caps, banned options, and railroading.
ha, every story I hear about overpowered characters is a story that I may one day make my own memorable character that people will talk about. I want to make my own Gandalf, Momotaro, Heracles, King Arthur.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Well this thread has done what i should have expected. It sent me into a depression with my hopes crushed. I want 100% access to Paizo published Pathfinder material to have freedom. I want a roleplaying experience that isnt made redundant by a videogame. In response I get people saying I should quit trying or go play a different game. Infinite diversity in infinite combinations and the only choice I have is the Pathfinder Society Campaign with level caps, banned options, and railroading.
ha, every story I hear about overpowered characters is a story that I may one day make my own memorable character that people will talk about. I want to make my own Gandalf, Momotaro, Heracles, King Arthur.
There are no level caps, just fewer options to play at higher levels, as has been posted already.
There are good experienced to be had in organized play, but those are linked to compromise for absolutely everyone involved. That is a part of the whole experience.
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Well this thread has done what i should have expected. It sent me into a depression with my hopes crushed. I want 100% access to Paizo published Pathfinder material to have freedom.
ha, every story I hear about overpowered characters is a story that I may one day make my own memorable character that people will talk about. I want to make my own Gandalf, Momotaro, Heracles, King Arthur.
The freedom you seek to do whatever you please is going to ruin the experience for everyone else sitting at the table and is completely incompatible with organized play. If this depresses you it might be time to look at yourself and your outlook rather than trying to bend the environment to suit you.
People want to tell their own story not be sidekicks to your Gandalf, Hercules et al.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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We did not mean to send you into depression with your hopes crushed. Far from it. You’ll note that I even suggested a way that you can acheive your dream. Be a GM for homebrew or Campaign Mode PFS modules, and show your players a wonderful time at it. What you offer to the world is often offered right back to you.
Being a fun GM opens up Society play at a whole different level. For one, you get to be all the NPCs and make settings and their cultures come alive. For two, you get to meet wonderful people and see them laugh and have a great time as they try to solve the dilemmas that you have put before them. You can give others a chance to be great heroes against difficult odds. For three, other folks will start offering you invitations to their own Campaign Mode home games. As a GM in Minnesota and Online, I keep getting invitations to play — far more than I could ever accept and remain sane.
I say, if you cannot find the game you want to join, create it for others. That’s what I do!
Hmm
People want to tell their own story not be sidekicks to your Gandalf, Hercules et al.
You do know thats why Superhero group comics like the Avengers and Justice League exist? So Thor and the Hulk can team up.
The way to make it seem is like Im saying I want to be a God and control every others player actions. When did I say that? Im adverse to have my actions be determined by someone else without my consent not I want to micromanage all the other players, otherwise what is the point of being with other player? Reasonable people make agreements like plans for fights.
If anything it would be interesting to work around difficult party members like trying to negotiate with Devils while a Paladin is saying we should kill them all.
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Okay here are my criteria for any Pathfinder group. #1 access to at least character level 20. Past that is negotiable when its actually reached. #2 access to all Paizo published materials including all races, classes, archetypes, feats, spells, etc.
That means I could make an Aasimir Master Summoner with a business of making and selling magic belts and headbands.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Okay here are my criteria for any Pathfinder group. #1 access to at least character level 20. Past that is negotiable when its actually reached. #2 access to all Paizo published materials including all races, classes, archetypes, feats, spells, etc.That means I could make an Aasimir Master Summoner with a business of making and selling magic belts and headbands.
Good look finding that game, since PFS is decidedly not that (though you could reach 20) might I suggest looking for groups on the relevant websites?
Alternatively, ignore your own lofty requirements and actually try playing PFS games if they are offered in your area. Chances are that you will be able to have fun if you don't focus too much on what you can't have.