I'm making a pair of Thief twins. One is the Swashbuckler archetype the Dashing Thief. The other is the Rogue archetype the Phantom Thief. I'm trying to pick out a good weapon for my Phantom Thief. The Dashing Thief will be using a rapier but I don't them to have the exact same weapon.
I was considering the Sword Cane for the flavor, but it's a Martial Weapon and Rogues aren't proficient. Someone suggested the alternate human trait Military Tradition. It replaces the bonus level one feat humans get but basically functions as taking the Martial or Exotic Proficiency Feat twice. I figured that if I used that trait, then I could give her both the Sword Cane and the Whip.
I'm also considering using Military Tradition for my Dashing Thief so he can have Whip proficiency as well. He'll need it to do the Steal maneuver from a distance to regain panache. If I do this, I'm going to have the other weapon be either a ranged one or maybe the Spiral Rapier.
Anyway, is that something I should consider doing or should I give my Phantom Thief a Dagger and Shortsword instead?
Rogues usually want a bunch more feats than they get. I'd avoid losing the human feat for the phantom. That doesn't mean you have to go shortsword and dagger - there are other options, like a cestus and/or a sap.
A swashbuckler probably can afford a feat OTOH. Though that's a strange military tradition that teaches the whip and spiral rapier.
Heirloom Weapon doesn't work on a weapon type. It works on a specific individual weapon. If something happens to that weapon, than you lose the benefit completely.
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Though that's a strange military tradition that teaches the whip and spiral rapier.
Secret society you joined when you were at university, naturally.
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Though that's a strange military tradition that teaches the whip and spiral rapier.Secret society you joined when you were at university, naturally.
Ssh! Rule one of the secret order of the spirals is that you don't talk about the secret order of the spirals!
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Anyway, is that something I should consider doing or should I give my Phantom Thief a Dagger and Shortsword instead?
Have you consdered a dagger and another dagger? It's a surprisingly flexible weapon. River Rat trait helps it keep up on damage. Pharasma's obedience gives a big bonus to hit. And even without those, you get a choice of P/S damage and the ability to throw them short distances.
I'm assuming you mean the River Rat trait and not the archetype. You can't be a Phantom Thief and a River Rat at the same time. Both archetypes replace Trap Sense.
You think Two-Weapon Fighting would be a good choice using 2 daggers?
Spiral Rapier
I've seen a lot of goofy, logic-defying weapons purportedly capable of actually working in RPGs, and this one is near the head of list.
One thing's for sure: writer Isabelle Lee loves herself some Demon's Soul.
Rogues usually want a bunch more feats than they get. I'd avoid losing the human feat for the phantom.
If, at any point in your leveling, you find yourself taking Iron Will or Great Fortitude, that's basically zeroing out the human bonus feat relative to a race with saving throw bonuses, including some very suited to the profession:
* dwarf: best saves in the game and darkvision; stone-sense works like Trap Spotter (so they have two chances to auto-spot traps half the time).
* half-orc: second-best saves attainable with Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored.
* halfling: best attack-bonus and AC if Dex-based, bonus to Perception and Stealth, built-in flat +1 to all saves. The newer racial feat Risky Striker really takes them off the back-bench when it comes to raw delivery.
* elf: low-light vision means they're in their element skulking in shadows, and +2 mental defenses to some magic. Grant a few weapon proficiencies (namely longbow), handy if you're straight-classing.
How about this
Aim for sap master.
Versatile weaponry.
Put vicious and merciful on whatever weapon you want.
Saps are non-lethal though. Is there a way to make it lethal?
Ugh, I really want that Sword Cane. It's just such great flavor.
Rogues usually want a bunch more feats than they get. I'd avoid losing the human feat for the phantom.If, at any point in your leveling, you find yourself taking Iron Will or Great Fortitude, that's basically zeroing out the human bonus feat relative to a race with saving throw bonuses, including some very suited to the profession:
* dwarf: best saves in the game and darkvision; stone-sense works like Trap Spotter (so they have two chances to auto-spot traps half the time).
* half-orc: second-best saves attainable with Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored.
* halfling: best attack-bonus and AC if Dex-based, bonus to Perception and Stealth, built-in flat +1 to all saves. The newer racial feat Risky Striker really takes them off the back-bench when it comes to raw delivery.
* elf: low-light vision means they're in their element skulking in shadows, and +2 mental defenses to some magic. Grant a few weapon proficiencies (namely longbow), handy if you're straight-classing.
Yeah, remember that Heather's talking about using that feat for military tradition. Not iron will or great fort. And one of the advantages of the human feat is that you can get some feat/feat chain sooner, rather than waiting until 3rd or 5th level.
BTW risky striker comes from the Advanced Race Guide. As far as PF is concerned it's not new.
Yeah, if I use the trait on my Swashbuckler, I'll have to wait until level 3 to get Fencing Grace. That's the only reason I wouldn't take it. Don't REALLY need a Spiral Rapier and can take Exotic Weapon Proficiency later for a Whip if I truly need it.
But the weapon choice for my Rogue will affect my feat choices. A Sword Cane is not a light weapon so the penalties for TWF would be too great.
Yeah, remember that Heather's talking about using that feat for military tradition. Not iron will or great fort. And...
Imagine feats are like electrons. But you don't see individual elections. Rather, all electrons are in a quantum cloud.
Morale of the analogy: the human bonus feat is, essentially, any one of them.
There are many reasons to play a human, including the bonus feat. But if any of the feats in your character build merely duplicate a benefit another race would have given you, then your decision to go with human based on getting a feat wasn't the best.
I didn't really decide on human for the bonus feat. Humans get a skill point every level as well as the favored class bonus. And for a Swashbuckler, that bonus is 1/4 panache point. The only other race that has that same bonus is the elf. And I don't really want to make an elf. Yes, they gain Dex, but they lose Con, which I don't like. And since my Dashing Thief and my Phantom Thief are twins, they need to be the same race.
I finally figured out what weapons to use! I took another look at the Swashbuckler page and it says that they get the benefits of Weapon Finesse with ANY Light or One-Handed Piercing Melee Weapon! The Sword Cane is a One-Handed Piercing Melee weapon! I can give him the Sword Cane and the Phantom Thief can use the Rapier! I don't have to worry about spending a feat for weapon proficiency and they won't have to use the same weapon! And I get my Sword Cane! Insert happy dance here.
Ooh, except that now I might have some trouble getting Dex-to-Damage for my Dashing Thief. The Unchained Phantom Thief will get it at level 3, but the only feats I know of that give Dex-to-Damage don't work on Sword Canes. Ugh. Why is this so hard?
Ok, there are 2 ways I can go with my Dashing Thief Swashbuckler. I can either start with a piercing weapon and replace it with a cutlass at level 3, taking the Slashing Grace feat. Or I stick with the Sword Cane and give it the Agile property as soon as I can.
A +1 agile weapon costs 8 000 gp (plus the cost of a masterwork weapon). That could be a while if you're playing from level 1. If they're NPCs and you can just make them level 8 or whatever, no problem.
Or if you're willing to multiclass an occultist dip can allow you to make a weapon agile for a minute. Takes a standard action though. Slashing grace is likely better.
Yeah. That is a lot of gold. Guess I'm going with a cutlass. It's either that or give him the rapier and the Phantom Thief a sickle.
Why do Sword Canes have to be so difficult to use?
A sword cane isn't a light weapon (important if you're considering Piranha Strike at some point).
I don't think a rogue has the feats to make a sword cane work, as unfortunate as that may be for flavor reasons. Daggers have multiple damage types available, a throw range, and a trait for +1 damage with daggers. The swashie deserves a spiral rapier and whip for stupid bravado reasons, the rogue needs to capitalize on what it has or it will be pointless. But honestly, they are twins, you shouldn't waste any of their feats on silly weapons and give them teamwork feats to help the rogue not suck at life.
Yeah, that's why I decided to give the Rogue a rapier and the sword cane to the Swashbuckler. But that doesn't work either. Not unless I went with a strength build for the Swashbuckler instead of a dex build.
I went with a whip to give him the ability to steal at reach. A Dashing Thief doesn't have the ability to regain panache with a killing blow, but with stealing items instead. A single level dip into bard would take care of proficiency for the whip without needing a feat, and would gain him some spells and bardic performance.
Sadly, despite how well the Sword Cane fits the theme, it's just not feasible mechanically for either character. So the Phantom Thief will get a rapier and the Dashing Thief will start with a Shortsword and switch to a cutlass at level 3, taking the Slashing Grace feat.
If they both use their human bonus feats for a teamwork feat, it fits the twin thing nicely and can potentially help the rogue immensely.
Yes, though that is assuming I will be using them both at the same time.
I could make 2 builds for them - one where they are played alone, and one where they're played together.
Ok, so both of them get Weapon Finesse as a class feature at level one. So both have 2 feats to take. I could go with Weapon Focus and Slashing Grace right away for my Swashbuckler and then take Combat Expertise and Improved Steal at later levels, followed by the Whip Mastery feats.
My Rogue, being an Phantom Thief, can take the Combat Trick multiple times, which opens up a lot more feats. She can also take vigilante talents as well. I'm thinking I want her to focus on being sneaky and being able to move around the battlefield to flank a foe without accruing a lot of AoOs. So a lot of skill points into Acrobatics and Stealth.