Hi everyone,
i have a question who created a long and debated discussion between me and another person.
The question is:
If i'm prone can i use spells like Scorching ray?
He says that the prone condition affect all ranged weapons (except crossbow) and that the ray is weapon like a bow in every aspect.
I says the opposite. A Ray count as a weapon but is NOT a weapon so, even if i'm prone, i can cast scorching ray (but i can't use produce flame, for example, because in that situation i have a "semireal" weapon in my hands).
We already checked the prone condition (can you give a list of exceptions to it? Only crossbow and firearms can be fired while prone?)
I also checked the definition for a Ray and nowhere is written that a ray IS a weapon. Acts like "as" a weapon...but it isn't really.
We know the faq (both of them) but they don't help since this is a pretty specific question.
Thank you in advice for your answers.
Marco.
They were referring to manufactured weapons, but with the way it is written I can see why he thought it meant any weapon. There is no reason why you can fire a crossbow easier than you can point your finger at someone.
So to prove you point you have to show that rays are not weapons in that sense.
Rays count as weapons for things like weapon focus, but so does grappling since you can take weapon focus(grapple), but grapple is not a weapon.
There is some evidence to show that rays are not ranged weapons.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
So there are only two types of actual ranged weapons, thrown weapons and projectile weapons
You can't throw a ray, and rays are not projectiles.
How do I know they are not projectile weapons?
Well projectile weapons are actually defined in the book
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
PS: Thrown weapons are also defined, but I'm going to give him enough credit to say he wouldn't try to define them as thrown weapons.
I'll keep this here for another while to see if someone else want to give his tought. Anyway thank you Wraithstrike and Azothath !
Here is the faq that i mention early, for sake of clarification.
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
He say that, this faq, make rays count as weapon in every aspects. For prone condition (maybe even broken condition i think).
I say that rays are treated as weapon but are not weapon so, while prone, i can use a ray because it is not a ranged weapon
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I'm with wraithstrike and azothath. Rays use some of the ranged weapon rules but they are not weapons. Similarly, reach weapons use some of the ranged weapon rules (the ones regarding cover) but they are certainly not ranged weapons... unless you like throwing halberds at people....
He say that, this faq, make rays count as weapon in every aspects. For prone condition (maybe even broken condition i think).
I say that rays are treated as weapon but are not weapon so, while prone, i can use a ray because it is not a ranged weapon
Well, even if that were true - which it isn't - some ranged weapons are usable when prone. Nothing says that ranged touch spells act like a specific weapon. That's why Weapon Focus (ray) is a thing, as opposed to Weapon Focus (longbow) being used for rays. So, even if this FAQ actually meant that ranged spells were to be universally treated as manufactured weapons, it's still the DM choosing for some inexplicable reason to make them unusable prone.
If the DM decides he really, really wants to run this way, I'd think that it's time to open up the Magic Items chapter and look at what good enchantments you can place on your new rays. You might find seeking to be fun. Or you could be a real knob and opt for distance, despite spells having a range, not a range increment, but hey, spells are weapons, not their own thing, right? Best of all, let's go ahead and put speed on our enervation rays, so we can make two shots with it. Later in your career, work on metamagic quicken, so you can get four enervation attacks in one round.
Here is the faq that i mention early, for sake of clarification.
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
He say that, this faq, make rays count as weapon in every aspects. For prone condition (maybe even broken condition i think).
I say that rays are treated as weapon but are not weapon so, while prone, i can use a ray because it is not a ranged weapon
Nothing about this leads to "every aspect". FAQ's only effect the question asked. The devs have even said this.
By his logic the ray now has range increments since nothing says spells don't cancel out the range increment rule. :)
Well, even if that were true - which it isn't - some ranged weapons are usable when prone. Nothing says that ranged touch spells act like a specific weapon. That's why Weapon Focus (ray) is a thing, as opposed to Weapon Focus (longbow) being used for rays. So, even if this FAQ actually meant that ranged spells were to be universally treated as manufactured weapons, it's still the DM choosing for some inexplicable reason to make them unusable prone.If the DM decides he really, really wants to run this way, I'd think that it's time to open up the Magic Items chapter and look at what good enchantments you can place on your new rays. You might find seeking to be fun. Or you could be a real knob and opt for distance, despite spells having a range, not a range increment, but hey, spells are weapons, not their own thing, right? Best of all, let's go ahead and put speed on our enervation rays, so we can make two shots with it. Later in your career, work on metamagic quicken, so you can get four enervation attacks in one round.
This is my point. Even if they count as weapons they will never be weapons. They will never have a "body" or hit points or material. This is the reason why you can't cast magic weapon on a frigid touch, for example, but he says that the FAQ states the opposite. Magic weapon target a weapon and since a touch like vampiric touch count as a weapon attack you can benefit not only from inspire courage but even from holy sword...or forma example it a spell give the broken condition to a weapon che can target a touch attack like a vampire touch. -_-
Anyway thank your for confirm my view on that.
Nothing about this leads to "every aspect". FAQ's only effect the question asked. The devs have even said this.By his logic the ray now has range increments since nothing says spells don't cancel out the range increment rule. :)
Every aspect related with the FAQ...talking of spell and effects that affect weapons.
Anyway i understand perfectly what do you mean.
yes... if he continues to rule they are weapons, time to get a +1 keen mithral thimble!
Thinking about it is really more simple than that.
Prone condition does NOT affect weapons. Prone condition affects characters -_-So, for the prone condition, a weapon is never targeted. I am targeted and i have the restriction on weapons i can use...and a ray, by the book, for me is a spell.
Thank you again, really.