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How many animal companions can you have at once?


Advice

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Dracala wrote:

I very much agree with Baval, Lady-J, and BNW. In my home game I specifically suggested our Hunter/Samurai to put her Tiger's first stat point increase in Int, and a skill point in Linguistics when she could, cuz it saves me a headache (since I'm inexperienced as a DM)...

Then again I also allowed her to take Beast Rider (at 1st level) in exchange for Mounted Archer, and suggested Hunter and specifically Pack Master when she found a second animal she wanted to add as a pet. She now has found a Roc egg she wants to hatch as well x3

good dm.

"this is your concept, lets see what we can do to make it work in the rules and if it doesnt exist we'll bend them a little"

thats what youre supposed to do. Its about fun before anything else

Shadow Lodge

Baval wrote:


Youre just saying random things now.

No. It's not random. Its a straightforward, point black, objective refutation of your logic. "Random" has a different meaning than "gives a restult that I don't like".

Quote:
Ok, then if thats the case why did you point out twice in a row that humans have a starting language.

Because You are making the following argument

That is what the linguistics skill does. Every rank in it is a new language. If your DM lets you learn languages without it thats their call

The linguistics skill gives you a language, therefore anything that isn't the linguistics skill giving you a language is a contradiction. This is refuted by the number of things that give you a language, including...

Quote:
There is no grey area here. You only get languages from int when your character is first created. Raising int afterwards does not allow you to learn new languages unless you put skills in linguistics or have another ability such as a class feature or feat that specifically say you can.

This is also wrong.

Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?

Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).
posted June 2013 | back to top


Baval wrote:

good dm.

"this is your concept, lets see what we can do to make it work in the rules and if it doesnt exist we'll bend them a little"

thats what youre supposed to do. Its about fun before anything else

Thankies ^__^


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Baval wrote:


Youre just saying random things now.

No. It's not random. Its a straightforward, point black, objective refutation of your logic. "Random" has a different meaning than "gives a restult that I don't like".

Quote:
Ok, then if thats the case why did you point out twice in a row that humans have a starting language.

Because You are making the following argument

That is what the linguistics skill does. Every rank in it is a new language. If your DM lets you learn languages without it thats their call

The linguistics skill gives you a language, therefore anything that isn't the linguistics skill giving you a language is a contradiction. This is refuted by the number of things that give you a language, including...

Quote:
There is no grey area here. You only get languages from int when your character is first created. Raising int afterwards does not allow you to learn new languages unless you put skills in linguistics or have another ability such as a class feature or feat that specifically say you can.

This is also wrong.

Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?

Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).
posted June 2013 | back to top

Nooooo, thats not what i said ever and ive said 3 times that that isnt what i said. What i said is since linguistics gives you an ability getting those same abilties without any outside source is against the rules. Its not a hard concept.

Thanks for showing me another way Paizo doesnt know the rules its lifting.
Quote:
The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.

Int only gives you bonus languages at the start of the game, int increases afterwards do not give you additional languages.

However in this specific case its likely intentional, as they made all bonuses from leveling up retroactive on purpose, a direct and intentional change from 3.5. So in this case its not misunderstanding what the rules say but rather forgetting to change the wording when copying.

However note that it changes nothing for animals, as a negative int gives you no bonus languages even if you increase it until it becomes positive.

Shadow Lodge

Baval wrote:
Nooooo, thats not what i said ever and ive said 3 times that that isnt what i said. What i said is since linguistics gives you an ability getting those same abilties without any outside source is against the rules. Its not a hard concept.

Its a very easy concept. You're not saying x you're saying x. Because if you were saying x you would be wrong but since you're saying x you're so right that paizo would have to be wrong.

There is no functional difference to what you say you're saying and what you say you're not saying.

Quote:
Int only gives you bonus languages at the start of the game, int increases afterwards do not give you additional languages.

It doesn't say that. The words "at the start of the game" are there, but they don't necessarily carry over through the next sentence. The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game depends on his intelligence score at the start of the game. The rules do not explicitly spell out what happens when your int is raised. That is an interpretation on your part, an interpretation that (once again) isn't the rules.


by the time an animal companion gets an int of 3 or higher it will have spent enough time with its master to have picked up at least one of its languages


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Baval wrote:
Nooooo, thats not what i said ever and ive said 3 times that that isnt what i said. What i said is since linguistics gives you an ability getting those same abilties without any outside source is against the rules. Its not a hard concept.

Its a very easy concept. You're not saying x you're saying x. Because if you were saying x you would be wrong but since you're saying x you're so right that paizo would have to be wrong.

There is no functional difference to what you say you're saying and what you say you're not saying.

Quote:
Int only gives you bonus languages at the start of the game, int increases afterwards do not give you additional languages.

It doesn't say that. The words "at the start of the game" are there, but they don't necessarily carry over through the next sentence. The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game depends on his intelligence score at the start of the game. The rules do not explicitly spell out what happens when your int is raised. That is an interpretation on your part, an interpretation that (once again) isn't the rules.

Look im going to put this as simply as i can:

There are many ways to get new languages. Every PC starts with at least one, usually common. You can put points into linguistics and get more. Some class abilities give you more. Some feats give you more. Even a few spells give you more.

But just stating to the DM "i speak elven now because ive been talking to elves" isnt one of them. When you want to do something you have to use the rules there to do it, you cant just will it to happen.

What next sentence? "These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. "? Thats a non point. The point about when you get bonus languages for int is all one sentence, and that sentence is at the start of the game. You cant just say "the rules dont spell out every specific instance of anything that could possibly happen in clear lawer speak so i can do whatever i want". Otherwise I could say "it says at level 1 clerics get 2 domains but it doesnt say i cant keep getting more domains later"

As I said, youre just saying random things now.

Lady-J wrote:
by the time an animal companion gets an int of 3 or higher it will have spent enough time with its master to have picked up at least one of its languages

I agree, and youre perfectly free to put its first skill rank into linguistics to represent that. That is how skills and experience points work, you gain experience doing things and you turn those into concrete benefits through leveling up.


Baval wrote:
Lady-J wrote:


by the time an animal companion gets an int of 3 or higher it will have spent enough time with its master to have picked up at least one of its languages
I agree, and youre perfectly free to put its first skill rank into linguistics to represent that. That is how skills and experience points work, you gain experience doing things and you turn those into concrete benefits through leveling up.

nope without the linguistics points, the animal would have spent months or years with its master and oppon reaching 3 int it would have an epiphany about language and say "oh that's what words are" as a forum of higher thinking is unlocked in their brain just like how if a pc has an int of 2 or less they cant talk and what not as they have been regressed into less knowledge


Lady-J wrote:
Baval wrote:
Lady-J wrote:


by the time an animal companion gets an int of 3 or higher it will have spent enough time with its master to have picked up at least one of its languages
I agree, and youre perfectly free to put its first skill rank into linguistics to represent that. That is how skills and experience points work, you gain experience doing things and you turn those into concrete benefits through leveling up.
nope without the linguistics points, the animal would have spent months or years with its master and oppon reaching 3 int it would have an epiphany about language and say "oh that's what words are" as a forum of higher thinking is unlocked in their brain just like how if a pc has an int of 2 or less they cant talk and what not as they have been regressed into less knowledge

No that is the opposite. You can spontaneously forget things you once knew, you cant spontaneously know things you didnt know.

The creature did not have the mental capacity before to learn a language, so it didnt just store it as useless information for later. Think of it like a computer, you cant install windows 10 on a T98 and then just replace the hard drive and it works, because it is physically incapable of storing that kind of information before.


Baval wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Baval wrote:
Lady-J wrote:


by the time an animal companion gets an int of 3 or higher it will have spent enough time with its master to have picked up at least one of its languages
I agree, and youre perfectly free to put its first skill rank into linguistics to represent that. That is how skills and experience points work, you gain experience doing things and you turn those into concrete benefits through leveling up.
nope without the linguistics points, the animal would have spent months or years with its master and oppon reaching 3 int it would have an epiphany about language and say "oh that's what words are" as a forum of higher thinking is unlocked in their brain just like how if a pc has an int of 2 or less they cant talk and what not as they have been regressed into less knowledge

No that is the opposite. You can spontaneously forget things you once knew, you cant spontaneously know things you didnt know.

The creature did not have the mental capacity before to learn a language, so it didnt just store it as useless information for later. Think of it like a computer, you cant install windows 10 on a T98 and then just replace the hard drive and it works, because it is physically incapable of storing that kind of information before.

its not spontaneously knowing things you didn't know its unlocking the understanding of things you already knew, memory is wisdom based and most animals have a neutral or positive wisdom, the memory is stored with wisdom but the means to execute is based on int so once the int becomes grate enough to be able to execute on the things that they have learned over the months or years, it will gain access to the understanding of those things


memory is int based. Wizards memorize their spells and its an int based class. linguistics is int based. autohypnosis is int based. Memory is int based.


Baval wrote:
memory is int based. Wizards memorize their spells and its an int based class. linguistics is int based. autohypnosis is int based. Memory is int based.

memory is wisdom based, just because a wizard uses int for spells doesn't mean its int based, also autohypnosis is wisdom based not int based

autohypnosis:
Autohypnosis (Wis; Trained Only)
Memorize

You can attempt to memorize a long string of numbers, a long passage of verse, or some other particularly difficult piece of information (but you can’t memorize magical writing or similarly exotic scripts). Each successful check allows you to memorize a single page of text (up to 800 words), numbers, diagrams, or sigils (even if you don’t recognize their meaning). If a document is longer than one page, you can make additional checks for each additional page. You always retain this information; however, you can recall it only with another successful Autohypnosis check.

also note
Animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).


ok i was wrong about autohypnisis, but knowledge which is also about memory is also int based. However memory has been a long debated subject so were not going to get a clear answer here since neither of us have strong ground to stand on

animal companions are called out as the exception, although you are correct they carried that line over and animals with an int of 3 or more are *supposed* to become magical beasts, but thats a 3.5 definition.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My god, I just readed what was writen when I was bed-ridden, and I can't believe Baval actually again claim I did not explain things to him, when it's about ten times I explained those point I that thread...

Ok, let me try again, step by step:
- RAW says that animal companions falls into the non-Sentient companion category
- RAW says that creatures with 3 intelligence and understanding a langage are sentient companions

Thus, by RAW, an animal companion with 3 or more intelligence and able to understand a langage (like an improved parrot with 6 intelligence and linguistics and a Master who spent 6 years making it learn the common) would be both sentient and non-sentient, which is illogical.

To solve this inconsistancy, it need to be decided what takes priority: the intelligence/laguage criteria, or the species criteria.
Alas RAW does not give the answer on this, that's why it's confusing. The guy who wrote that part of the rules probably accidentaly overlooked the fact an animal can gain intelligence if it's an animal companion.
Baval claims the intelligence criteria takes precedence... with no proof at all.

Paizo officials answered to the players about this and told that it falls in a grey area which is called "intelligent animals": those animals would be able to speak a language given a set of additional conditions (training, able to formulate the words with the anatomy they have) but will still not be will to obey to their best of their capacity to any demand of their owner neverless, as they will still requires Handle Animal checks.

Baval claims it is a "damage control" faq, again without proof at all: that faq was never labeled as such by its author.
Anyway, this claim is irrelevant as a damage control rules would be still a valid rules neverless, and also be a valid answer to the problem at hand.

Lady-J claims on her side that FAQ does not make sense since the animal is now intelligent enough to perfectly understand it's master, and I explained in return to her that it does make sense because to understand an order and to be willing to obey it are completly separate matters.
I gave several exemples showing why, even if your animal companion understand what you wish, it would not give a damn about it unless you show him who's the master.

The offical explanation, who became later part of RAW, is very clear on the topic, and the only thing left is a few people that don't want to accept the rules as they have been now clarified and give headache to other people instead of asking their DM a homerule for it.


Youre right to a point. I do say the definition of the term takes preference over an incomplete list of examples.

You know, because thats logical. Its reasonable to assume a list of examples wont cover every possible iteration and that looking at the definition of the term and coming to your own conclusion makes more sense. Anything else is a logical fallacy or pure rules lawyering cheese.

But to each his own.

Btw, you didnt give any examples because all your examples boil down to "just because its a smart doesnt mean its not still a stupid"

And no one labels their own rulings "this is something im just saying because im worried someone will break it otherwise and isnt actually whats written."

And dont try to take the moral highground here "oh you just dont like the rules as theyve been changed so now you want to pretend they dont count since ive said four times now that still needing handle animal is official Paizo ruling but that that ruling doesnt make sense so i would ignore it personally if, and ive now said this twice, I ever used animal companions since I dont.

What a joke, theres no point even talking to you anymore since your argument constantly revolves around "lists of examples overrule definitions!" and "you dont have anything specifically written out to prove your obvious inference. if its not written into the core rulebook 'Baval is right' then youre wrong"


Baval wrote:

Youre right to a point. I do say the definition of the term takes preference over an incomplete list of examples.

You know, because thats logical. Its reasonable to assume a list of examples wont cover every possible iteration and that looking at the definition of the term and coming to your own conclusion makes more sense. Anything else is a logical fallacy or pure rules lawyering cheese.

But to each his own.

Well, hopefuly, the one of logicians and scientists around the world is not based on what they find "reasonable to assume", or we will still believe the Earth is flat, isn't it?

Quote:
Btw, you didnt give any examples because all your examples boil down to "just because its a smart doesnt mean its not still a stupid"

How my examples can boil down to anything if I didn't gave them, exactly?

Quote:
And no one labels their own rulings "this is something im just saying because im worried someone will break it otherwise and isnt actually whats written."

Still irrelevant, so not willing to lost time to argue against it.

Start to explain us what it changes if it was damage control, perhaps...

Quote:
And dont try to take the moral highground here "oh you just dont like the rules as theyve been changed so now you want to pretend they dont count since ive said four times now that still needing handle animal is official Paizo ruling but that that ruling doesnt make sense so i would ignore it personally if, and ive now said this twice, I ever used animal companions since I dont.

I wasn't even remotely about doing like that, but I find very interesting that you seems scared of it.

Quote:
What a joke, theres no point even talking to you anymore since your argument constantly revolves around "lists of examples overrule definitions!" and "you dont have anything specifically written out to prove your obvious inference. if its not written into the core rulebook 'Baval is right' then youre wrong"

No, my argument revolves around "this is -not- a mere list of examples"

An argument shared by Paizo it seems.


To clarify my headache wasn't coming from the player who is more inexperienced than I am, it was coming from me not wanting to have to deal with her pet (as its an NPC) on top of everything else I have to do. The Int and Linguistics ruling made it more of an extension of her character, than something she needed to Handle.

Shadow Lodge

Baval wrote:
There are many ways to get new languages. Every PC starts with at least one, usually common. You can put points into linguistics and get more. Some class abilities give you more. Some feats give you more. Even a few spells give you more.

Raising your intelligence gets you more.

Putting on a headband o smarts gets you more
Raising your critters to int 3 gets them more (than the zero they start with)

You call that a contradiction with.. rules you can't cite.

Quote:
But just stating to the DM "i speak elven now because ive been talking to elves" isnt one of them. When you want to do something you have to use the rules there to do it, you cant just will it to happen.

This is not what anyone is suggesting. There is no legitimate reading of anything that was said that could be mistaken for that statement. There is no way to make that statement relevant. It is an obvious, blatant straw man from someone that cannot address the points being made.

It is not a random "i say i can so i can". Its from upping intelligence. The rules are there, black and white, clear as crystal, and they were quoted to you. Because I back my claims.

Quote:
You cant just say "the rules dont spell out every specific instance of anything that could possibly happen in clear lawer speak so i can do whatever i want". Otherwise I could say "it says at level 1 clerics get 2 domains but it doesnt say i cant keep getting more domains later"

The rules say what your starting languages are based on int.

The rules are completely silent on what languages you have if your intelligence increases. That your starting languages are based on intelligence at the start of the game does NOT specify that your mid game languages are based on your intelligence at the start of the game or that your end game languages are based on your intelligence at the start of the game.

They weren't clear that your languages at mid game were based on your intelligence at mid game either. The FAQ clarified that they were.

The faq clarified that when you increase your int (either with HD gains or headbands of braininess) you gain more languages. In direct contradiction to your statement, which was based on a misreading of the rules.

Quote:


As I said, youre just saying random things now.

You keep using that word. I don't think random means what you think it means.

Handwaving that insult every time i prove you wrong (and that's been a lot) is not discussing this in good faith.


Moonheart wrote:

My god, I just readed what was writen when I was bed-ridden, and I can't believe Baval actually again claim I did not explain things to him, when it's about ten times I explained those point I that thread...

Ok, let me try again, step by step:
- RAW says that animal companions falls into the non-Sentient companion category
- RAW says that creatures with 3 intelligence and understanding a langage are sentient companions

Thus, by RAW, an animal companion with 3 or more intelligence and able to understand a langage (like an improved parrot with 6 intelligence and linguistics and a Master who spent 6 years making it learn the common) would be both sentient and non-sentient, which is illogical.

To solve this inconsistancy, it need to be decided what takes priority: the intelligence/laguage criteria, or the species criteria.
Alas RAW does not give the answer on this, that's why it's confusing. The guy who wrote that part of the rules probably accidentaly overlooked the fact an animal can gain intelligence if it's an animal companion.
Baval claims the intelligence criteria takes precedence... with no proof at all.

Paizo officials answered to the players about this and told that it falls in a grey area which is called "intelligent animals": those animals would be able to speak a language given a set of additional conditions (training, able to formulate the words with the anatomy they have) but will still not be will to obey to their best of their capacity to any demand of their owner neverless, as they will still requires Handle Animal checks.

Baval claims it is a "damage control" faq, again without proof at all: that faq was never labeled as such by its author.
Anyway, this claim is irrelevant as a damage control rules would be still a valid rules neverless, and also be a valid answer to the problem at hand.

Lady-J claims on her side that FAQ does not make sense since the animal is now intelligent enough to perfectly understand it's master, and I explained in return to her that it does make...

Animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). you cannot use handle animal on things that are not animals


Lady-J wrote:
Animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). you cannot use handle animal on things that are not animals

You’re literally now saying Paladin Bonded Mounts aren’t a thing. Pretty sure they are in fact a thing.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). you cannot use handle animal on things that are not animals
You’re literally now saying Paladin Bonded Mounts aren’t a thing. Pretty sure they are in fact a thing.

1.who uses the mount option paladin mounts suck

2. while they are still an option and can be picked, if they are picked i don't see how them not being animals anymore would effect them in the slightest seeing as how they turn into magical beasts in a few levels anyway


Lady-J wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). you cannot use handle animal on things that are not animals
You’re literally now saying Paladin Bonded Mounts aren’t a thing. Pretty sure they are in fact a thing.

1.who uses the mount option paladin mounts suck

2. while they are still an option and can be picked, if they are picked i don't see how them not being animals anymore would effect them in the slightest seeing as how they turn into magical beasts in a few levels anyway

1: That literally has nothing to do with what we are talking about, and is an extremely poor attempt at trying to deflect away from the thing that irrefutably proves you wrong.

2: They are animals with an int higher than 2. They don’t start as magical beasts, as the class details say they become one only after the celestial template is applied, meaning they start as animals.

3:

Collar of the True Companion wrote:


If worn by a creature of the animal type with an Intelligence less than 3, a collar of the true companion grants a +2 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. This does not give the animal the ability to speak, but it does allow it to understand one spoken language (chosen by the item’s creator).

If the collar is worn for at least 1 week by a creature of the animal type, the creature is raised to humanlike sentience, as though by the awaken spell. Once this occurs, the collar loses its magical properties.

Permanent Bonuses wrote:


Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

This is irrefutable proof that animals can have an intelligence greater than 2, as Awaken cannot be cast on anything except an animal, and the animal has an actual intelligence greater than 2 when that happens, due to the Permanent Bonus rules.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). you cannot use handle animal on things that are not animals
You’re literally now saying Paladin Bonded Mounts aren’t a thing. Pretty sure they are in fact a thing.

1.who uses the mount option paladin mounts suck

2. while they are still an option and can be picked, if they are picked i don't see how them not being animals anymore would effect them in the slightest seeing as how they turn into magical beasts in a few levels anyway

1: That literally has nothing to do with what we are talking about, and is an extremely poor attempt at trying to deflect away from the thing that irrefutably proves you wrong.

2: They are animals with an int higher than 2. They don’t start as magical beasts, as the class details say they become one only after the celestial template is applied, meaning they start as animals.

3:

Collar of the True Companion wrote:


If worn by a creature of the animal type with an Intelligence less than 3, a collar of the true companion grants a +2 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. This does not give the animal the ability to speak, but it does allow it to understand one spoken language (chosen by the item’s creator).

If the collar is worn for at least 1 week by a creature of the animal type, the creature is raised to humanlike sentience, as though by the awaken spell. Once this occurs, the collar loses its magical properties.

Permanent Bonuses wrote:


Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
This is irrefutable proof that animals can have an intelligence greater than 2, as...

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks.

You apply your character’s Intelligence modifier to:

The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft checks.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on his Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.

Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Ability Damage: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. The Ability Damage penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence. See Ability Score Damage below.

Notes:

Animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Oozes do not have an Intelligence score, and as such they have immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). An ooze with an Intelligence score loses this trait.
Regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; even though plants are alive, they are objects, not creatures.
Vermin do not have an Intelligence score, and as such they have immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Mindless creatures have no feats or skills. A vermin-like creature with an Intelligence score is usually either an animal or a magical beast, depending on its other abilities.
this is from the actual ability score text an animal with an int of 3 or more is no longer an animal


I use paladin mounts.


@Lady-J: All this quoting of yours is irrelevant, since the guys from Paizo errata'ed all those old rules by stating clearly how an Animal Companion with 3+ intelligence has to be handled by a very straight-forward answer pointing this exact case.

Quote:
Even if an animal’s Intelligence increases to 3 or higher, you must still use the Handle Animal skill to direct the animal

This is the rule, it is very clear, and it overwrite EVERYTHING else, since it was released officialy as a clarification for this case.

You are free to not like it, you are free to contest if it makes sense or not... but none of this will change the fact it is the rule.


PS: ...and anyway, the FAQ also clarifies this "animal can't have more than 2 int" point:

Quote:
Note that while the monster guidelines talk about a maximum Int for an animal, this only applies to the creation process. Giving an animal a higher Intelligence score does not somehow transform it into a magical beast, unless the effect says otherwise, such as in the case of awaken.

Thus, you can increase an animal intelligence above 2 after its creation, it will stay an animal neverless... and thus, stay bound by all rules regarding animals.


Moonheart wrote:

@Lady-J: All this quoting of yours is irrelevant, since the guys from Paizo errata'ed all those old rules by stating clearly how an Animal Companion with 3+ intelligence has to be handled by a very straight-forward answer pointing this exact case.

Quote:
Even if an animal’s Intelligence increases to 3 or higher, you must still use the Handle Animal skill to direct the animal

This is the rule, it is very clear, and it overwrite EVERYTHING else, since it was released officialy as a clarification for this case.

You are free to not like it, you are free to contest if it makes sense or not... but none of this will change the fact it is the rule.

by raw an animal with an int of 3 is not an animal anymore, by raw you can only use handle animal on an animal so by raw you cant use handle animal on an animal companion of 3 int or higher


Moonheart wrote:

PS: ...and anyway, the FAQ also clarifies this "animal can't have more than 2 int" point:

Quote:
Note that while the monster guidelines talk about a maximum Int for an animal, this only applies to the creation process. Giving an animal a higher Intelligence score does not somehow transform it into a magical beast, unless the effect says otherwise, such as in the case of awaken.
Thus, you can increase an animal intelligence above 2 after its creation, it will stay an animal neverless... and thus, stay bound by all rules regarding animals.

while i agree it doesn't turn into a magical beast it still loses its animal type because animals cant have an int of 3+


Lady-J, do you even understand what "applies only to the creation process" means?

It means those rules do not apply to the character advancement process, and thus not apply to the ability increase of the animal companion.
And if they don't apply, the animal companion will not lose its "animal" status even if you use that ability increase to raise its score above 2.

That's even crazy in the first place that you can't even understand that the -animal- companion is meant, by design, to be and stay an animal.

If, by any means not explicitly ruled as an acceptable exception for this feature (like plant "animal" companion), an animal companion would stop to be an animal, then it would -also- stop automatically and logicaly to be an animal companion (and thus, even more, YOUR animal companion)

That's EXACTLY what the Awaken spell is meant for.


Lady-J, so if it loses the animal type it becomes untyped? Because it certainly doesn't gain any other types.

That is a really really strange reading of the rules.


She just don't want to accept the ruling that raising the intelligence of an animal companion to 3 does not spare you to make handle animal checks, even after have seen the guys from Paizo write it black on white.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Lady-J plays in a rule system that resembles but takes lots of liberties from Pathfinder, and plays a style of game that is very different from the normal expectations of play most people have.

When it comes to things like this...it's simply not worth it to argue with them. Lady-J is very firm in their position, as are the rest of us.

I would advise not wasting more time and space arguing and simply note this for future reference.

No offense intended to Lady-J, but I just tend to ignore the majority of advice and comments since their experience relates so poorly to the majority of other games and gamers.


Moonheart wrote:
She just don't want to accept the ruling that raising the intelligence of an animal companion to 3 does not spare you to make handle animal checks, even after have seen the guys from Paizo write it black on white.

there is nothing to accept no creature with an int of 3 can be an animal its clearly written in the rules


J4RH34D wrote:

Lady-J, so if it loses the animal type it becomes untyped? Because it certainly doesn't gain any other types.

That is a really really strange reading of the rules.

well its the only way to read them with paizo ruling that they don't become magical beasts but they can no longer be animals


Moonheart wrote:

Lady-J, do you even understand what "applies only to the creation process" means?

It means those rules do not apply to the character advancement process, and thus not apply to the ability increase of the animal companion.
And if they don't apply, the animal companion will not lose its "animal" status even if you use that ability increase to raise its score above 2.

That's even crazy in the first place that you can't even understand that the -animal- companion is meant, by design, to be and stay an animal.

If, by any means not explicitly ruled as an acceptable exception for this feature (like plant "animal" companion), an animal companion would stop to be an animal, then it would -also- stop automatically and logicaly to be an animal companion (and thus, even more, YOUR animal companion)

That's EXACTLY what the Awaken spell is meant for.

except its not only on character creation and if you cast the awaken spell on an animal companion they lose all companion abilities as (An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.)


Lady-J wrote:
Moonheart wrote:

Lady-J, do you even understand what "applies only to the creation process" means?

It means those rules do not apply to the character advancement process, and thus not apply to the ability increase of the animal companion.
And if they don't apply, the animal companion will not lose its "animal" status even if you use that ability increase to raise its score above 2.

That's even crazy in the first place that you can't even understand that the -animal- companion is meant, by design, to be and stay an animal.

If, by any means not explicitly ruled as an acceptable exception for this feature (like plant "animal" companion), an animal companion would stop to be an animal, then it would -also- stop automatically and logicaly to be an animal companion (and thus, even more, YOUR animal companion)

That's EXACTLY what the Awaken spell is meant for.

except its not only on character creation and if you cast the awaken spell on an animal companion they lose all companion abilities as (An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.)

Lady-J, just give it up. You are wrong. You have been presented the rules that say you are wrong. You saying “Nuh uh, that ruling isn’t a thing” isn’t going to change the fact that you are wrong. It is only on character creation that an animal can’t have an intelligence greater than 2. The FAQ clearly says this. You are free to ignore this if you want in your home games. Doesn’t change the fact that outside your home games you are irrefutably wrong on this matter.

EDIT:

Also an awakened animal companion doesn’t lose their animal companion stuff.

James is law

James is law part 2


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
Moonheart wrote:

Lady-J, do you even understand what "applies only to the creation process" means?

It means those rules do not apply to the character advancement process, and thus not apply to the ability increase of the animal companion.
And if they don't apply, the animal companion will not lose its "animal" status even if you use that ability increase to raise its score above 2.

That's even crazy in the first place that you can't even understand that the -animal- companion is meant, by design, to be and stay an animal.

If, by any means not explicitly ruled as an acceptable exception for this feature (like plant "animal" companion), an animal companion would stop to be an animal, then it would -also- stop automatically and logicaly to be an animal companion (and thus, even more, YOUR animal companion)

That's EXACTLY what the Awaken spell is meant for.

except its not only on character creation and if you cast the awaken spell on an animal companion they lose all companion abilities as (An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.)

Lady-J, just give it up. You are wrong. You have been presented the rules that say you are wrong. You saying “Nuh uh, that ruling isn’t a thing” isn’t going to change the fact that you are wrong. It is only on character creation that an animal can’t have an intelligence greater than 2. The FAQ clearly says this. You are free to ignore this if you want in your home games. Doesn’t change the fact that outside your home games you are irrefutably wrong on this matter.

EDIT:

Also an awakened animal companion doesn’t lose their animal companion stuff.

James is law

James is law part 2

thats the way jj rules in his games those arnt the rules by raw by raw if you awaken your animal companion you lose the companion awaken spell An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount. see the bolded text in the spell description


It can’t serve as one. Doesn’t mean it loses what it already had. James made that ruling, it’s official. Deal with it.


Reksew_Trebla wrote:
It can’t serve as one. Doesn’t mean it loses what it already had. James made that ruling, it’s official. Deal with it.

james isn't the rule guy and the ask james forum is just for how he would rule things in his game nothing more


I already told you that the content of this FAQ have been printed into the official rulebook two years later, in 2013.
So, it's not "James' FAQ" anymore: It's RAW since already 4 years!


Moonheart wrote:

I already told you that the content of this FAQ have been printed into the official rulebook two years later, in 2013.

So, it's not "James' FAQ" anymore: It's RAW since already 4 years!

One of the surest ways to complicate the relationship between an adventurer and her animal companion is to cast awaken on the beast. The moment the spell takes effect, an animal companion ceases to be a class feature, and instead becomes a person—an NPC whose Intelligence has increased by 3d6 (potentially making it as smart as or smarter than the caster), and who has an increased Charisma score and knows at least one spoken language.

An adventurer considering awakening his animal companion should keep in mind the awaken spell’s potential drawbacks. Most pointedly, awakened animals can no longer serve as companions, and the character must follow the rules for Leadership if he wishes to take the animal as an official cohort.

really then whats this raw that says even further awakened animals can not serve as animal companions and in order to keep the thing as a companion(not an animal companion but just part of the group) they need to take the leadership feat, the cease being animal companions and thus lose all their animal companion abilities.


You're just not reading the right part of RAW.
I quote you the right one again, that I have quoted you already already three times and still fail to understand:

Quote:
Even if an animal’s Intelligence increases to 3 or higher, you must still use the Handle Animal skill to direct the animal

It's a clear rule, that directly aim at the case we're debating since days, and that is printed in the rulebooks since 2013.

And also, know that it exist also additional rules warding against the use of ability increases of the animal companion on non-physical ability scores anyway.... so raise an animal intelligence to 3 is actualy a lot trickier that you present it.
You can't just do it because you want.

Shadow Lodge

Lady-J wrote:
Moonheart wrote:
She just don't want to accept the ruling that raising the intelligence of an animal companion to 3 does not spare you to make handle animal checks, even after have seen the guys from Paizo write it black on white.
there is nothing to accept no creature with an int of 3 can be an animal its clearly written in the rules

This lists the animal’s total skill ranks. Animal companions can assign skill ranks to any skill listed under Animal Skills. If an animal companion increases its Intelligence to 10 or higher, it gains bonus skill ranks as normal. Animal companions with an Intelligence of 3 or higher can purchase ranks in any skill. An animal companion cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice.

An animal companion CAN have an int of 3 or higher and that is clearly written in the rules.

If you read that as a contradiction, fine. However, the monkey see monkey do blog clarified the "no int 3 animals" as being a design function, not a hard rule. Its been a settled question for 6 years now.

Being able to read the rules like a computer code or bit of Aristotelian logic requires a perfect system that never contradicts itself and never leads to contradictions. I don't know if thats possible, but i know pathfinder is very much not that system. You cannot just look at one bit of the rules and consider the matter settled.


Lady J, the bit about animals over int 3 not being animals anymore is a rule that got dropped during the 3.5->Pathfinder changeover. You're thinking of outdated legacy text.


To be fair, the change was totaly inequaly referenced through the page speaking of animal intelligence:
- In the "Companions" page, the change is clearly written black on white
- In the "Animal Companion" page, that change is also implied in several ways
- In the "Creature Types" page, however, the change is not referenced and there is just a warning that "A creature cannot violate the rules of its subtype without a special ability or quality to explain the difference"
- And in the "Ability Scores" page, they completly forgot to reference the change

So, it's more a problem of clarity than being outdated. To be perfectly clear, the rule should be reference EVERYWHERE they start to say something "an animal can't have more than 2 int"

But Lady-J also have a stubborness score going to the epic levels, so she keeps pointing at the text of pages who are not complete and ignoring every other page which is totaly clear on the topic.
Again, and again, and again, AND AGAIN, AND F%+~ING AGAIN....


Lady-J wrote:

pulled right from the book/paizo rules website

Creatures incapable of speech have an Intelligence score of 2 or lower.
meaning if you have 3 int or more you are capable of speech which means you are capable of language

That's a logical fallacy.

Not P therefore Q is not equivalent to Not Q therefore Not P.

Grand Lodge

Ditto. A removed condition does not mean an automatic acquiring of a new one.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Lady J, the bit about animals over int 3 not being animals anymore is a rule that got dropped during the 3.5->Pathfinder changeover. You're thinking of outdated legacy text.

no its was not removed its right there in the ability score page under intelligence

Intelligence (Int)

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks.

You apply your character’s Intelligence modifier to:

The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft checks.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on his Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.

Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Ability Damage: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. The Ability Damage penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence. See Ability Score Damage below.

Notes:

Animals have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Oozes do not have an Intelligence score, and as such they have immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). An ooze with an Intelligence score loses this trait.
Regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; even though plants are alive, they are objects, not creatures.
Vermin do not have an Intelligence score, and as such they have immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Mindless creatures have no feats or skills. A vermin-like creature with an Intelligence score is usually either an animal or a magical beast, depending on its other abilities.


Quothe the PRD wrote:

Intelligence (Int)

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks.

You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:

The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.
Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft checks.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on his Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level.

Italics and bolding mine.

Here's a link for you.


Lady-J, it has been explained to you 1538 times already that this rule does not apply to the character advancement process.
Which part of your knowledge acquisition process is deficient? Your eyes, your brain, or your ability to accept facts that doesn't go your way?

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