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ultimate wilderness archetypes and other features


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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GinoA wrote:
I went through several chapter specifically looking for reprinted items. Here are my notes:

There might be more, but one I noticed you missed is the Scarab Stalker hunter. Reprinted with its bonuses to saves switched from competence to resistance.

Rysky wrote:
Abilties aren’t always traded out equally for Archetypes, it’s just how they’re structured, you have to look at the Archetype as a whole rather than on an ability by ability basis.

I never said they were. The issue I have with the green knight is its 'take' comes online very early while the 'give' doesn't show up until much later in the campaign.

Silver Crusade

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pauljathome wrote:

If you don't like mounted combat why are you choosing a Cavalier as your starting class?

I just wanted to thank everybody for responded, both for their answers and for the fact that nobody took my question the wrong way.


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shaventalz wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Conversely, the familiars who lost Weapon Finesse were not nerfed---it was redundant, familiars always get to use Dex or Str, whichever is higher, with their natural attacks.

Delivering touch spells (generally) isn't part of their natural attack, though. Which means it's Finesse or Strength for that.

And in the cases where you're not planning on having your familiar do any attacking, that's a feat you could have traded (in PFS) for an item slot.

Well, PFS thinks Weapon Finesse is redundant for Tiny familiars.

PFS FAQ wrote:

Can my familiar wield weapons or use magic items?

[...]
Some Tiny familiars have the Weapon Finesse feat listed as one of their feats, even though they gain the benefits of Weapon Finesse for free from their size. Swapping out this feat does not deprive Tiny familiars of the ability to use its Dexterity to hit.

But I am unable to find the rule that says Tiny creatures in general can use Dex on attack rolls in general, so... I dunno. :-(

You are certainly right about the value of having a feat to swap out. I'd forgotten about that, and it is a substantial nerf.

EDIT: Wait, no it's not! They didn't lose Weapon Finesse outright, they traded it for new feats. Arctic tern gained Skill Focus (Fly), dodo gained Weapon Focus (bite), koala gained Great Fortitude, and puffin gained Skill Focus (Swim). So they have the same number of feats to swap around, but their default feats are more useful.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Conversely, the familiars who lost Weapon Finesse were not nerfed---it was redundant, familiars always get to use Dex or Str, whichever is higher, with their natural attacks.

Delivering touch spells (generally) isn't part of their natural attack, though. Which means it's Finesse or Strength for that.

And in the cases where you're not planning on having your familiar do any attacking, that's a feat you could have traded (in PFS) for an item slot.

Well, PFS thinks Weapon Finesse is redundant for Tiny familiars.

PFS FAQ wrote:

Can my familiar wield weapons or use magic items?

[...]
Some Tiny familiars have the Weapon Finesse feat listed as one of their feats, even though they gain the benefits of Weapon Finesse for free from their size. Swapping out this feat does not deprive Tiny familiars of the ability to use its Dexterity to hit.

But I am unable to find the rule that says Tiny creatures in general can use Dex on attack rolls in general, so... I dunno. :-(

You are certainly right about the value of having a feat to swap out. I'd forgotten about that, and it is a substantial nerf.

EDIT: Wait, no it's not! They didn't lose Weapon Finesse outright, they traded it for new feats. Arctic tern gained Skill Focus (Fly), dodo gained Weapon Focus (bite), koala gained Great Fortitude, and puffin gained Skill Focus (Swim). So they have the same number of feats to swap around, but their default feats are more useful.

As of 2013, Mike Brock ruled that losing Weapon Finesse meant you lost that ability. That ruling seems to have been abandoned since then. Probably.

The FAQ you quoted was actually missing that line before the website update (dated July06), so it looks like the intent (in PFS) is that Finesse is free. I'm not sure that's the RAW for non-PFS games, but it's a reasonable houserule in those cases.

EDIT: At least, that's all my (not very exhaustive) searches turned up. Anyone got anything else?


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I really enjoyed the fluff and Art for the Seasons Witch, unfortunately its writing is so foggy its probably gonna need an FAQ/Errata and the archetype is very small indeed :/

I wish it did a little more.

The art for it is AMAZING though xD I already made one.


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For those who want a mountless cavalier with a different angle (teamwork over toughness), I recommend taking a look at the sister-in-arms from the Adventurer's Guide. ^_^

It's still order-locked (albeit to two much stronger orders), but it doesn't have the focus on nature baked in. The Gray Maiden flavor can be scrubbed with relative ease (especially compared to its roommate, the masked maiden).

Squiggit wrote:
The level 1 is also really unimpressive to me and I’m not sure the writer valued the mount feature highly enough. Hell, even if you never use your mount in combat at all I think trading tactician and 200 pounds of carrying capacity for diehard, endurance and wild empathy is still kind of a wash.

I value the mount class feature very highly, to be honest - I know what a lance-bearing cavalier is capable of. So I understand where you're coming from. In this case, though, there were a lot of factors that informed the archetype's overall design.


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Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I really enjoyed the fluff and Art for the Seasons Witch, unfortunately its writing is so foggy its probably gonna need an FAQ/Errata and the archetype is very small indeed :/

I wish it did a little more.

The art for it is AMAZING though xD I already made one.

The art if good across the board....unfortunately there is a whole lot of "foggy writing" that is going to need errata.

Between this, and the large number of re-prints....I think I'm more disappointed in this book than any I have seen.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber
GinoA wrote:
Animal Companion Archetypes: Please note the sentence “Animal companions with more than one natural attack and only primary natural attacks can’t take a companion archetype that trades out Multiattack.”

Why would they implement this? Not only do these companions get a useless feature, but now the existence of that feature prevents them from gaining archetypes. I can see trading out something instead so it isn't something for nothing but outright disallowing a third of the animal companions from taking any archetype besides racer is incredibly infuriating. I am starting to question my own sanity at this point; I can't possibly be reading that right. Are the writers, developers, and editors playing a different game than us?


nighttree wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I really enjoyed the fluff and Art for the Seasons Witch, unfortunately its writing is so foggy its probably gonna need an FAQ/Errata and the archetype is very small indeed :/

I wish it did a little more.

The art for it is AMAZING though xD I already made one.

The art if good across the board....unfortunately there is a whole lot of "foggy writing" that is going to need errata.

Between this, and the large number of re-prints....I think I'm more disappointed in this book than any I have seen.

I'll agree with this. Adventurer's Guide had a huge number of reprints/nerfs but it at least had tighter writing what wilderness. So it's kind of a toss up for me which I was more disappointed in.

PS: While I understand the reason why some want reprints, like FAQ's much more likely or collecting material in one place, for me it's mostly unneeded. It'd be nice to have some kind of idea how much of a book is reprinted from the get go, so people into that kind of thing are attracted to it and those of us that don't could focus on other products.


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I feel like most of the "foggy writing" stuff in Ultimate Wilderness is at least easy enough for the GM to patch on the fly (like what kind of elemental damage the elementalist adds should be obvious, even though it's not actually specified like it said it would be.)

The oozemorph though, woof.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I feel like most of the "foggy writing" stuff in Ultimate Wilderness is at least easy enough for the GM to patch on the fly (like what kind of elemental damage the elementalist adds should be obvious, even though it's not actually specified like it said it would be.)

For people lucky enough to play under a consistent DM, this might be true. For me though, it's just extra time eaten up in pre character posts. While fixable and pretty obvious, it's also irksome that it needs done.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
The oozemorph though, woof.

Yep... Technically fixable, but any patch would be the definition of 'expect table variance.'


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Isabelle Lee wrote:

For those who want a mountless cavalier with a different angle (teamwork over toughness), I recommend taking a look at the sister-in-arms from the Adventurer's Guide. ^_^

It's still order-locked (albeit to two much stronger orders), but it doesn't have the focus on nature baked in. The Gray Maiden flavor can be scrubbed with relative ease (especially compared to its roommate, the masked maiden).

Squiggit wrote:
The level 1 is also really unimpressive to me and I’m not sure the writer valued the mount feature highly enough. Hell, even if you never use your mount in combat at all I think trading tactician and 200 pounds of carrying capacity for diehard, endurance and wild empathy is still kind of a wash.
I value the mount class feature very highly, to be honest - I know what a lance-bearing cavalier is capable of. So I understand where you're coming from. In this case, though, there were a lot of factors that informed the archetype's overall design.

I actually ran a one shot where I have my wife and her best friend play 2 sisters in arms together. It was incredible. Easily one of the best archtype to play more than 1 of. It totally had the sister in battle bond I wanted.

It's rare to see a class that has the rules perfectly mirror the flavour. I gave them the grey maiden flavoured combat style too. Just A+


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Abilties aren’t always traded out equally for Archetypes, it’s just how they’re structured, you have to look at the Archetype as a whole rather than on an ability by ability basis.
I mean, if we don't choose to look at these things holistically, the Water Dancer trades Evasion for Burn, which might be the worst archetype trade of all time.
[rant]Nah mate, the WORST trade for any archetype ever is for the Paladin archetype Empyreal Knight
Empyreal Knight wrote:
Voices of the Spheres: At 2nd level, an empyreal knight learns to speak and read Celestial, if she could not already. This ability replaces divine grace.

The worst part of it is, if you already know celestial, either because you're aasimar or you just spent 1 skillpoint in linguistics, you are completely out of luck. You just lost Divine Grace, ability so nice 9th level casters have been known to give up 2 levels of spell casting for, in exchange for absolutely nothing. If somebody can show me a paladin build that is so skill starved that they would willingly exchange divine grace for one skill point, I'll take away everything I ever said about this trade, but as it stands, all other archetypes look better in comparison.[/rant]


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GinoA wrote:

I went through several chapter specifically looking for reprinted items. Here are my notes:

...

  • Familiar – Rhamphorhynchus: Reprint – Unchanged.

A correction. The rhamphorhynchus now seems to grant a +4 bonus to Initiative rather than the +2 bonus listed in previous publications.


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Velisruna wrote:
GinoA wrote:
Animal Companion Archetypes: Please note the sentence “Animal companions with more than one natural attack and only primary natural attacks can’t take a companion archetype that trades out Multiattack.”
Why would they implement this? Not only do these companions get a useless feature, but now the existence of that feature prevents them from gaining archetypes. I can see trading out something instead so it isn't something for nothing but outright disallowing a third of the animal companions from taking any archetype besides racer is incredibly infuriating. I am starting to question my own sanity at this point; I can't possibly be reading that right. Are the writers, developers, and editors playing a different game than us?

Seriously?

So, something with ONE attack can be a totem guide? As can something with... what, hooves or wings and a single bite?

But if you want an ape bodyguard, that's now disallowed? Because it has two slams, and we can't have that.

And what about stuff like the Marax (from an AP)? It starts out with a primary and a secondary, then trades the secondary for two primaries at level 7. Is it always disqualified from taking an archetype? Does it lose the archetype when it grows? If you take an archetype at level 1, are you forced to take the dex/con increase instead of the size increase at level 7?


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shaventalz wrote:
Velisruna wrote:
GinoA wrote:
Animal Companion Archetypes: Please note the sentence “Animal companions with more than one natural attack and only primary natural attacks can’t take a companion archetype that trades out Multiattack.”
Why would they implement this? Not only do these companions get a useless feature, but now the existence of that feature prevents them from gaining archetypes. I can see trading out something instead so it isn't something for nothing but outright disallowing a third of the animal companions from taking any archetype besides racer is incredibly infuriating. I am starting to question my own sanity at this point; I can't possibly be reading that right. Are the writers, developers, and editors playing a different game than us?

Seriously?

So, something with ONE attack can be a totem guide? As can something with... what, hooves or wings and a single bite?

But if you want an ape bodyguard, that's now disallowed? Because it has two slams, and we can't have that.

And what about stuff like the Marax (from an AP)? It starts out with a primary and a secondary, then trades the secondary for two primaries at level 7. Is it always disqualified from taking an archetype? Does it lose the archetype when it grows? If you take an archetype at level 1, are you forced to take the dex/con increase instead of the size increase at level 7?

Oh, but it's even worse than that!

Consider the humble horse. Iconic mount of the cavalier. Starting at level 4 (or level 1 for the cavalier), that horse becomes combat trained - which changes the hooves to primary natural weapons. Same problem as the Marax, except this one is Core and one of the only options available to a specific class.

Well, that's fine. Obviously it means the cavalier's mount isn't intended to have archetypes... what? You say the Charger archetype is specifically designed to be taken by cavaliers? Umm...

(double post because the first post is outside of the edit window)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Actually Horse and Marax* are covered for that I believe.

Core Rulebook wrote:
As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion’s Dexterity and Constitution by 2.

*don't know what that is so I'm just guessing there, what AP is it from?

*taps chin*

I guess that raises the question of if a Cavalier can still trade out the Combat Trained ability on their mount since they get it early.


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Rysky wrote:

Actually Horse and Marax* are covered for that I believe.

Core Rulebook wrote:
As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion’s Dexterity and Constitution by 2.
*don't know what that is so I'm just guessing there, what AP is it from?

The Marax is a combative relative of the Lorax.

I am the Marax! I kill for the trees!
I kill for the trees for the trees have no blades!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Actually Horse and Marax* are covered for that I believe.

Core Rulebook wrote:
As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion’s Dexterity and Constitution by 2.
*don't know what that is so I'm just guessing there, what AP is it from?

The Marax is a combative relative of the Lorax.

I am the Marax! I kill for the trees!
I kill for the trees for the trees have no blades!

I like.


Rysky wrote:

Actually Horse and Marax* are covered for that I believe.

Core Rulebook wrote:
As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion’s Dexterity and Constitution by 2.
*don't know what that is so I'm just guessing there, what AP is it from?

Which brings me back to my initial question set. Is the companion always barred from taking those archetypes, are the archetypes lost on levelup, or is it forced to take the alternate stat boost?

Marax:

Spoiler:
Don't own it myself; just going off the Nethys listing. That being said, it seems to be from Iron Gods #6.

Even disregarding that obscure companion choice, a simple statement like that isn't very future-proofed. People have been asking for insect companions, maybe even ones that metamorphose. What would happen with something like that? It's much better to at least consider the possibility now, rather than change the rules again later.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Ah, gotcha, alien Dinosaur.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Green Knight Cavalier uses Diplomacy+Cavalier level for its "Wild Empathy", which makes it better than the average druid at calming wild animals, assuming Diplomacy investment.


Rysky wrote:

Actually Horse and Marax* are covered for that I believe.

Core Rulebook wrote:
As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion’s Dexterity and Constitution by 2.

*don't know what that is so I'm just guessing there, what AP is it from?

*taps chin*

I guess that raises the question of if a Cavalier can still trade out the Combat Trained ability on their mount since they get it early.

They can't, since it's an explicit class feature for them.

Archives of Nethys wrote:

Mount (Ex): A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.

A cavalier does not take an armor check penalty on Ride checks while riding his mount. The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A cavalier’s mount does not gain the share spells special ability.

A cavalier’s bond with his mount is strong, with the pair learning to anticipate each other’s moods and moves. Should a cavalier’s mount die, the cavalier may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level.

Emphasis mine.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Ventnor wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Actually Horse and Marax* are covered for that I believe.

Core Rulebook wrote:
As you gain levels, your animal companion improves as well, usually at 4th or 7th level, in addition to the standard bonuses noted on Table: Animal Companion Base Statistics. Instead of taking the listed benefit at 4th or 7th level, you can instead choose to increase the companion’s Dexterity and Constitution by 2.

*don't know what that is so I'm just guessing there, what AP is it from?

*taps chin*

I guess that raises the question of if a Cavalier can still trade out the Combat Trained ability on their mount since they get it early.

They can't, since it's an explicit class feature for them.

Archives of Nethys wrote:

Mount (Ex): A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.

A cavalier does not take an armor check penalty on Ride checks while riding his mount. The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A cavalier’s mount does not gain the share spells special ability.

A cavalier’s bond with his mount is strong, with the pair learning to anticipate each other’s moods and moves. Should a cavalier’s mount die, the cavalier may find another mount to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new mount does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level.

Emphasis mine.

Hmmm, I think that would be up for a FAQ, if Cavalier AC's can still trade that option out even if they get it early.


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Rysky wrote:
Hmmm, I think that would be up for a FAQ, if Cavalier AC's can still trade that option...

Or, alternatively... Paizo could not change the rules to be different than those for every other instance of archetyping.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I was talking about the interactions between the Core Rulebook AC substitution options and the Cavalier granting an option to their AC earlier than they would get it than if they were an AC to another class.

Shadow Lodge

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shaventalz wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Hmmm, I think that would be up for a FAQ, if Cavalier AC's can still trade that option...
Or, alternatively... Paizo could not change the rules to be different than those for every other instance of archetyping.

I think the chance of that happening are as good as getting actual Psionics instead of watered-down psychic magic.


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technarken wrote:

Green Knight Cavalier uses Diplomacy+Cavalier level for its "Wild Empathy", which makes it better than the average druid at calming wild animals, assuming Diplomacy investment.

So the Druid Wild Empathy is ChaMod+Druid Level, but the Green Knight comes rolls Diplomacy Modifier + Cavalier level? So you can take Student of Philosophy and be a Charisma 5 Dwarf who was educated at all the best universities before moving to the woods fulltime and can persuade animals with reason and logic?

That's kind of awesome.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
technarken wrote:

Green Knight Cavalier uses Diplomacy+Cavalier level for its "Wild Empathy", which makes it better than the average druid at calming wild animals, assuming Diplomacy investment.

So the Druid Wild Empathy is ChaMod+Druid Level, but the Green Knight comes rolls Diplomacy Modifier + Cavalier level? So you can take Student of Philosophy and be a Charisma 5 Dwarf who was educated at all the best universities before moving to the woods fulltime and can persuade animals with reason and logic?

That's kind of awesome.

Hey, why not? Wizards and witches can do the same with a trait and the Feral Speech discovery/hex.


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Plus the Dwarven Longaxe is one of the top 3 most appropriate weapons for a Green Knight to use (the others being the other two "GIANT AXES"- the Bardiche and the Butchering Axe.)

Pearl Poet wrote:
The knight bore no helm nor hauberk, neither gorget nor breast-plate, neither shaft nor buckler to smite nor to shield, but in one hand he had a holly-bough, that is greenest when the groves are bare, and in his other an axe, huge and uncomely, a cruel weapon in fashion, if one would picture it. The head was an ell-yard long, the metal all of green steel and gold, the blade burnished bright, with a broad edge, as well shapen to shear as a sharp razor. The steel was set into a strong staff, all bound round with iron, even to the end, and engraved with green in cunning work. A lace was twined about it, that looped at the head, and all adown the handle it was clasped with tassels on buttons of bright green richly broidered.


shaventalz wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
technarken wrote:

Green Knight Cavalier uses Diplomacy+Cavalier level for its "Wild Empathy", which makes it better than the average druid at calming wild animals, assuming Diplomacy investment.

So the Druid Wild Empathy is ChaMod+Druid Level, but the Green Knight comes rolls Diplomacy Modifier + Cavalier level? So you can take Student of Philosophy and be a Charisma 5 Dwarf who was educated at all the best universities before moving to the woods fulltime and can persuade animals with reason and logic?

That's kind of awesome.

Hey, why not? Wizards and witches can do the same with a trait and the Feral Speech discovery/hex.

No they can't.

"You cannot use Diplomacy against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence of 3 or less." Unless the animal has an Intelligence of 4+, talking to them doesn't help. It's or not and.


graystone wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
technarken wrote:

Green Knight Cavalier uses Diplomacy+Cavalier level for its "Wild Empathy", which makes it better than the average druid at calming wild animals, assuming Diplomacy investment.

So the Druid Wild Empathy is ChaMod+Druid Level, but the Green Knight comes rolls Diplomacy Modifier + Cavalier level? So you can take Student of Philosophy and be a Charisma 5 Dwarf who was educated at all the best universities before moving to the woods fulltime and can persuade animals with reason and logic?

That's kind of awesome.

Hey, why not? Wizards and witches can do the same with a trait and the Feral Speech discovery/hex.

No they can't.

"You cannot use Diplomacy against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence of 3 or less." Unless the animal has an Intelligence of 4+, talking to them doesn't help. It's or not and.

Huh. Hadn't noticed that restriction before, and it's a little weird to have that hole at Int=3. It seems you are technically correct - the best kind.

With that said, I suspect a lot of GMs would allow it anyway because magic. Not something to count on, though.


shaventalz wrote:
Huh. Hadn't noticed that restriction before, and it's a little weird to have that hole at Int=3.

What's even more interesting is that the game allows rolling for stats: This means you can make a character/npc immune to Diplomacy as long as the race doesn't have a bonus to int.

shaventalz wrote:
With that said, I suspect a lot of GMs would allow it anyway because magic.

I've seen it ignored by dm's before [or they didn't know it was a rule].


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
shaventalz wrote:
It seems you are technically correct - the best kind.

I got that reference! ;)


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ultimate wilderness wrote:
A green knight can use Diplomacy to improve an animal’s attitude. Beast tongue otherwise functions like the druid’s wild empathy ability, using the green knight’s Diplomacy modifier and using her cavalier level as her effective druid level, and it counts as that ability for the purpose of other effects (such as feat prerequisites or effects that alter or improve wild empathy).

It is as I say. Green Knights can diplomacize animals and such.

Silver Crusade

graystone wrote:


"You cannot use Diplomacy against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence of 3 or less." Unless the animal has an Intelligence of 4+, talking to them doesn't help. It's or not and.

This is one of the places where the rules just make no sense so a GM pretty much HAS to make up a house rule.

Can't use diplomacy. Can't use Handle Animal. An argument can be made (and has been :-)) that the existence of wild empathy means that one can ONLY use Wild Empathy.

So how is a poor GM supposed to adjudicate "Person speaks to animal"?

Just say yes? Say no? Allow a Charisma check? Allow a skill roll? Flip a coin?

In my experience most GMs allow a diplomacy check. Some allow a Handle animal check. Some allow the better of the two. Some just go by roleplaying. Some just basically disallow it (the animal is so stupid that speaking to it has no value)


pauljathome wrote:
An argument can be made (and has been :-)) that the existence of wild empathy means that one can ONLY use Wild Empathy.

This is my understanding. You need something that overcomes the inability of diplomacy working on normal animals.

IMO there is a difference between communicating with an animal and knowing how to change it's attitude. Abilities like Wild Empathy give that insight. So "Person speaks to animal" works fine, it just doesn't normally make the creature like you more or less. I could see some non-communication/circumstantial ways to adjust attitude, like food for a starving creature, but that's more on a case by case situation.


pauljathome wrote:
graystone wrote:


"You cannot use Diplomacy against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence of 3 or less." Unless the animal has an Intelligence of 4+, talking to them doesn't help. It's or not and.

This is one of the places where the rules just make no sense so a GM pretty much HAS to make up a house rule.

Can't use diplomacy. Can't use Handle Animal. An argument can be made (and has been :-)) that the existence of wild empathy means that one can ONLY use Wild Empathy.

So how is a poor GM supposed to adjudicate "Person speaks to animal"?

Just say yes? Say no? Allow a Charisma check? Allow a skill roll? Flip a coin?

In my experience most GMs allow a diplomacy check. Some allow a Handle animal check. Some allow the better of the two. Some just go by roleplaying. Some just basically disallow it (the animal is so stupid that speaking to it has no value)

^this

Personally, I plan to read "understand" in the Diplomacy writeup in a slightly more informal manner. A dog "understands" simple commands and its name, but doesn't really get the language. And "point, grunt, shake handful of shiny beads" has historically been enough to try a Diplomacy check on some people.

Besides, speak with animals and the like lets you ask questions of the creature, which would technically fall under the "give simple advice or directions" section of Diplomacy. Which means the spell creates enough of a fuzzy area that I have no problems ruling in the player's favor.

Silver Crusade

graystone wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
An argument can be made (and has been :-)) that the existence of wild empathy means that one can ONLY use Wild Empathy.
This is my understanding.

The big problem is that this functionally makes spells and abilities that let you speak to animals all but useless.

As I said above, I think that ANY of the positions above are defensible from a rules perspective. Your perspective makes Wild Empathy more valuable, other perspectives make it relatively less valuable.


pauljathome wrote:
The big problem is that this functionally makes spells and abilities that let you speak to animals all but useless.

I don't see how. You can talk all you want... How is communication useless? IMO it gives wild empathy classes a unique ability that's valuable and giving it away to any caster just cheapens it. Why would a druid waste a class feature on it if basic spells they get can do it anyway?


People sometimes take one level dips in martial classes to gain proficiencies right? Could we see the Green Knight as a popular dip for these purposes, since their edict is easy (protect nature, oppose undead/aberrations) and Diehard is a great feat that is normally gated off by a really terrible prerequisite (which you also get for free if you care)?


PossibleCabbage wrote:
People sometimes take one level dips in martial classes to gain proficiencies right? Could we see the Green Knight as a popular dip for these purposes, since their edict is easy (protect nature, oppose undead/aberrations) and Diehard is a great feat that is normally gated off by a really terrible prerequisite (which you also get for free if you care)?

As far as martial dips go, it's pretty good.

Grand Lodge

pauljathome wrote:
The big problem is that this functionally makes spells and abilities that let you speak to animals all but useless.

Not even close. It does make them pretty useless against actively attacking or otherwise hostile creatures, but you can use speak with animals to learn all sorts of things from the rabbit or sparrow you come across in the woods.

Silver Crusade

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
The big problem is that this functionally makes spells and abilities that let you speak to animals all but useless.
Not even close. It does make them pretty useless against actively attacking or otherwise hostile creatures, but you can use speak with animals to learn all sorts of things from the rabbit or sparrow you come across in the woods.

Lets contrast meeting a peasant and a squirrel. In both cases, they are indifferent to you. You just want information.

By the rules, it is a diplomacy or intimidate check to get the peasant to tell you about stuff. It doesn't automatically happen. The check is often pretty easy but it IS necessary.

So, what happens when you speak with the squirrel? By the rules?

I'm guessing that you fall into the "The animal tells you stuff without a check" category. I think that greystone falls into the "the squirrel doesn't talk to you as its too busy gathering nuts" category. I fall into the "make a diplomacy or handle animal check" category. All are reasonable interpretations of the rules but they yield VERY different results.


pauljathome wrote:
I'm guessing that you fall into the "The animal tells you stuff without a check" category. I think that greystone falls into the "the squirrel doesn't talk to you as its too busy gathering nuts" category. I fall into the "make a diplomacy or handle animal check" category. All are reasonable interpretations of the rules but they yield VERY different results.

No, for me it falls under 'it replies like an indifferent person would...'. For a person you need to say something it improve its general attitude or get it interested enough to reply. Animals have more basic needs and most of the things you'd use for a person aren't going to apply to an animal: hence why someone with a background in nature knows what does work and HOW to ask.

So for that squirrel, it might reply but it's likely to quite focused on nuts and storing and uninterested in your questions. Now if you can figure out from the time of year what it's likely busy with and offer a reason to pay attention like: 'I can help you find nuts' or 'I know the perfect place to hide nuts'. You're going to have to do something outside normal diplomacy to improve that attitude. There is a reason for phrases like 'herding cats'...

pauljathome wrote:
All are reasonable interpretations of the rules but they yield VERY different results.

I'm going to have to disagree. The rules are crystal clear: you have an int of 3 or less, diplomacy has no effect on you. there is NO wiggle room there. Now if you meant 'there are reasonable houserules that work differently', I'd agree with that.


I also has another thought on "The big problem is that this functionally makes spells and abilities that let you speak to animals all but useless."

There are spells, like charm animal/monster that can set a "target’s attitude as friendly". So diplomacy isn't the only way to change "the squirrel doesn't talk to you as its too busy gathering nuts" to something better.


graystone wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree. The rules are crystal clear: you have an int of 3 or less, diplomacy has no effect on you. there is NO wiggle room there. Now if you meant 'there are reasonable houserules that work differently', I'd agree with that.

Except if you're a Green Knight.


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Ventnor wrote:
graystone wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree. The rules are crystal clear: you have an int of 3 or less, diplomacy has no effect on you. there is NO wiggle room there. Now if you meant 'there are reasonable houserules that work differently', I'd agree with that.
Except if you're a Green Knight.

Well yes, everyone with Beast Tongue (EX) gets an exception which clearly points out the general rule. If everyone can use "Diplomacy to improve an animal’s attitude", Beast Tongue wouldn't have to say that.


Brew Bird wrote:

{. . .}

The Feral Champion (a Warpriest archetype) is also pretty great, it gets Wild Shape and claws instead of a sacred weapon.

Strangely, although www.d20pfsrd.com has Feral Champion if you create the URL manually, it doesn't have a link to it -- and even if you create the URL manually, it doesn't exactly work, but takes you to a link that has it under Blessings. Weird. I suspect some other new stuff (and not so new stuff) is not linked properly on there either -- for starters, Shifter has no direct link (although I did manage to find a Shifter Archetypes page that lists them, which is not the essentially blank page you get when you click on Archetypes from the Shifter page), although I managed to get to it indirectly from a link from an archetype of something else (or by manually creating the URL).


UnArcaneElection: the links are all messed up, but if you type shifter into the search it shows the class and the archetypes in the results. So if anyone is looking for UW material, putting it in the search bar at d20pfsrd is the best bet.

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