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ultimate wilderness archetypes and other features


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Rhedyn wrote:
I don't know why people like Green Knight. You lose most of your active features for some passive tankyness increases.

The fluff is really cool, and most of what it gives up were the things that made me not like the Cavalier to begin with (specifically emphasis on mounted combat and charging.)

One of the things I like about the book is that it's full of archetypes for classes I wouldn't normally consider playing that evoke sufficiently compelling mental images it makes me want to play that class for the archetype (the Green Knight cavalier, the Venomfist Brawler, Season Witch, Stormwalker Ranger, etc.)


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Mista Moore wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Mista Moore wrote:
Thundercaller(Bard) – trade inspire competence, dirge of doom and frightening tune for the ability to drop lightning and cast the rage spell on allies. I don’t like playing Bards let alone ones that give up inspire courage for different abilities, this archetype keeps inspire courage! Inspiring courage and dropping lightning bolts at the same time sounds like fun to this guy
So the issue is that you for sure aren't doing both till lv7 since doing a thundercall would end your inspire courage being a new performance you're doing. And at lv7+ you can run into variation of if you can activate two performances in a round, but if you can you're still needing to spend a full round to do your thundercall and then start your inspire for a few levels.
The idea would be to take the lingering performance feat so first rd inspire, 2nd rd drop lightning while the other lingers. If I'm misinterpreting how to use lingering performance then yeah it negates the idea.

You're forgetting a line in Lingering Performance.

Lingering Performance wrote:
Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

Edit: Thundercaller - Bard that bangs on a drum and conjurers lightning, have fun with that.


shaventalz wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Mista Moore wrote:
Rageshaper(Shifter) – This archetype is the Incredible Hulk (nuff said), only drawback is when the additional resources are released for this book this archetype will be banned from pfs play due it’s susceptibility to pvp damage.
The drawback is it takes a full round and provokes to start, you only have level of rounds per day of it, and you can't voluntarily end it. So you rage for a fight get a round or two off and then burn any remaining rounds you have and you're done for the day.
It is an easy Will save to end. You may end up using a round or two more than you want, but you don't necessarily burn all your rounds.
DC 10+level. Even at level 1, that's not much better than a coin flip, and your Will save only rises by 1 per 3 levels. Like all the previous iterations of this idea, your chances of successfully stopping the rage drop pretty hard the higher-level you are.

If this archetype is going to be pfs legal they'll have to errata it in additional resources that you can't use the ability after rounds are up. It'll probably be simpler for them to ban the archetype


Mista Moore wrote:
Forester(Hunter) – no animal companion instead takes the ability bonus and a Ranger’s favored terrain. Trade precise companion for bonus combat feats at level 2, 7, 13 & 19. Trade teamwork feat with animal companion instead with allies, improved empathic link & speak with the master for evasion and improved evasion, camouflage for bonus tricks, breath of life for raise animal companion and lastly hide in plain sight for greater empathic link. I have no interest in the Hunter class because it entails lugging around an animal companion and specializing in utilizing said animal companion, this archetype on the other hand does not. All of the trade-outs are a net positive in my opinion by getting rid of the animal companion mechanic and everything that comes with it you get bonus combat feats, improved evasion, teamwork feats with allies, breath of life and favored terrain with stealth bonus in said terrain.Top 3 archetype in the book IMO.

Totally agree on this. I've been trying to make a Cavalier/Hunter concept for awhile and had always been lukewarm on the animal companion. This is a great kit for something between a Druid and a Ranger without Wildshape or an Animal Companion.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
shaventalz wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Mista Moore wrote:
Rageshaper(Shifter) – This archetype is the Incredible Hulk (nuff said), only drawback is when the additional resources are released for this book this archetype will be banned from pfs play due it’s susceptibility to pvp damage.
The drawback is it takes a full round and provokes to start, you only have level of rounds per day of it, and you can't voluntarily end it. So you rage for a fight get a round or two off and then burn any remaining rounds you have and you're done for the day.
It is an easy Will save to end. You may end up using a round or two more than you want, but you don't necessarily burn all your rounds.
DC 10+level. Even at level 1, that's not much better than a coin flip, and your Will save only rises by 1 per 3 levels. Like all the previous iterations of this idea, your chances of successfully stopping the rage drop pretty hard the higher-level you are.

A Will save you can attempt each round. Invest in a little Wisdom, maybe some Iron Will, add the bonus from rage, and you can reliably make the save over about 2 rounds.

Grand Lodge

anyone know of any new non-rogue archetypes that get a Sneak Dice at 1st level?


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Rhedyn wrote:
I don't know why people like Green Knight. You lose most of your active features for some passive tankyness increases.

Some people also don't like active class features. I have one player who never remembers to activate abilities, and prefers passive abilities far more. As a GM, I also like them, as it means I'm not fiddling with individual enemies if I've got a variety of opponents for the PCs.


cavernshark wrote:
Mista Moore wrote:
Forester(Hunter) – no animal companion instead takes the ability bonus and a Ranger’s favored terrain. Trade precise companion for bonus combat feats at level 2, 7, 13 & 19. Trade teamwork feat with animal companion instead with allies, improved empathic link & speak with the master for evasion and improved evasion, camouflage for bonus tricks, breath of life for raise animal companion and lastly hide in plain sight for greater empathic link. I have no interest in the Hunter class because it entails lugging around an animal companion and specializing in utilizing said animal companion, this archetype on the other hand does not. All of the trade-outs are a net positive in my opinion by getting rid of the animal companion mechanic and everything that comes with it you get bonus combat feats, improved evasion, teamwork feats with allies, breath of life and favored terrain with stealth bonus in said terrain.Top 3 archetype in the book IMO.
Totally agree on this. I've been trying to make a Cavalier/Hunter concept for awhile and had always been lukewarm on the animal companion. This is a great kit for something between a Druid and a Ranger without Wildshape or an Animal Companion.

oh wow, thanks for posting that info! do like that


stigand wrote:
oh wow, thanks for posting that info! do like that

Just to be clear, you get all of your teamwork feats like normal, but the ability to share them works like the Cavalier's tactician ability or the Slayer Vanguard's ability. At 3 you can do it 1/day for a few rounds, but you get a few more uses per level. It's not a constant share with allies.


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cavernshark wrote:
Mista Moore wrote:
Forester(Hunter) – no animal companion instead takes the ability bonus and a Ranger’s favored terrain. Trade precise companion for bonus combat feats at level 2, 7, 13 & 19. Trade teamwork feat with animal companion instead with allies, improved empathic link & speak with the master for evasion and improved evasion, camouflage for bonus tricks, breath of life for raise animal companion and lastly hide in plain sight for greater empathic link. I have no interest in the Hunter class because it entails lugging around an animal companion and specializing in utilizing said animal companion, this archetype on the other hand does not. All of the trade-outs are a net positive in my opinion by getting rid of the animal companion mechanic and everything that comes with it you get bonus combat feats, improved evasion, teamwork feats with allies, breath of life and favored terrain with stealth bonus in said terrain.Top 3 archetype in the book IMO.
Totally agree on this. I've been trying to make a Cavalier/Hunter concept for awhile and had always been lukewarm on the animal companion. This is a great kit for something between a Druid and a Ranger without Wildshape or an Animal Companion.

I put this in the errata thread, but I think that the first terrain was supposed to be at level 1, not level 5. It replaces animal companion (that you get at level 1) and calls out an improvement at level 5, which doesn't make sense if you get the first terrain at level 5.


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Squiggit wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
This book is full of really good archetypes (IMO), but one that stands out to me and has not been mentioned is for the Investigator: The Star Watcher, which trades rapier proficiency for Starknife and alters Alchemy from extracts to star charts--including being given the Scribe Scroll feat. Talents are included for choices that include applying your Studied Combat, etc. to the Starknife, even while thrown. Returning is even a choice! Really cool.

I’m not a huge fan of that one. You essentially get infusion for free, but having to pick the targets for your extracts at the start of the day ( and requiring your target to be present) is pretty killer, then you have to burn a talent just to make the archetype’s new weapon work anyways. Being able to craft scrolls like an alchemist can brew potions is pretty sweet in the right campaign, but that’s another talent too. You also lose out on some cool talents too.

The idea behind the archetype is neat, but reading it I kept expecting some big payoff for all the penalties and losses in the archetype that ended up never manifesting itself.

The Infusion has pretty limited flexibility, but still useful to support standard tactics. For example, if your Barbarian always uses Enlarge Person then you can have some prepared for him.

I think that Shooting Star is actually pretty nice. Letting you spend a Talent to apply Studied Combat, Studied Strike, and Investigator Talents like Sickening Offensive to your ranged attacks is much better than Ranged Study which forced you to spend a precious Feat. This was one of the big complaints when Ranged Study came out. (Of course you can still use the Extra Investigator Talent Feat to select Shooting Star if you want.) That Starry Grace gives you Dex to damage with both melee and ranged attacks is really nice, too.


Okay, on reflection the Menhir Guardian Monk is rad. It's only compatible with the chained monk, but that's less of an issue since you'll mostly either be flurrying or making an attack action with a primary natural attack (so you're ersatz full BAB.) Since you get the Shifters Claws you can take Shifter's Edge to make a dex monk much more viable without the Agile AoMF (try combining Shifter's Edge with the Catfolk Monk FCB), and with Feral Combat Training you can qualify for Pummeling Charge to get pounce.

I haven't gone all the way through archetype stacking compatibility, but it looks like you can be a drunken master menhir guardian and roleplaying the "Drunken Hermit Monk" might be a lot of fun.

Grand Lodge

Monk already get's full bab while flurrying so Menhir isn't at too much of an advantage there. It also has slower damage progression, loses ki strike, and stunning fist. You'd honestly be better off with a core monk with no archetype.


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Ki Strike is unnecessary since you're already getting the ability to overcome damage reduction with your claws. I've never gotten much mileage out of stunning fist, so rebuking strike seems like a fair trade, and while the damage scales slower than the normal monk's unarmed strike this does make a dex-based monk become a viable combatant much earlier than they could afford an Agile AoMF (you're down 1-1.5 damage per die, which is easily overcome.)

While an unarchetyped monk is probably better for a str-monk, I think the Menhir Guardian is viable if you're Dex>Str, and it's fun to have a sky-high AC without any clothes on.

Grand Lodge

Stunning someone is a lot more useful than moving them backwards, shifter's claws never overcome DR/magic while ki strike does, and agile will make you do more damage especially if you're not min/maxing to the extreme on the menhir.


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But hitting someone into trees, off of ledges, into the whirring blades of a death matchine, etc. is a lot more fun than stunning them.

Doesn't a +1 AoMF get around the DR/Magic situation? You don't need to buy an agile one, so you can get the +1. If not, make friends with someone who can cast Magic Fang when you fight ghosts, I guess.

Personally, I'm trying to phase "dex-to-damage" out of my game (just aesthetically I like my finesse fighters to be at least wiry), so more options for more classes to do reasonable damage as a finesse character is always appreciated. Plus, every monk I've ever played eventually buys a Physical Perfection belt, and the STR bonus is going to help with Shifter's Edge but won't help with Agile.

There's also the issue that prior to level 6 or so, full attacking with two primary natural weapons is noticeably more accurate than flurry of blows, which is nice at those vulnerable low levels.


cavernshark wrote:
Mista Moore wrote:
Forester(Hunter) – no animal companion instead takes the ability bonus and a Ranger’s favored terrain. Trade precise companion for bonus combat feats at level 2, 7, 13 & 19. Trade teamwork feat with animal companion instead with allies, improved empathic link & speak with the master for evasion and improved evasion, camouflage for bonus tricks, breath of life for raise animal companion and lastly hide in plain sight for greater empathic link. I have no interest in the Hunter class because it entails lugging around an animal companion and specializing in utilizing said animal companion, this archetype on the other hand does not. All of the trade-outs are a net positive in my opinion by getting rid of the animal companion mechanic and everything that comes with it you get bonus combat feats, improved evasion, teamwork feats with allies, breath of life and favored terrain with stealth bonus in said terrain.Top 3 archetype in the book IMO.
Totally agree on this. I've been trying to make a Cavalier/Hunter concept for awhile and had always been lukewarm on the animal companion. This is a great kit for something between a Druid and a Ranger without Wildshape or an Animal Companion.

The forester gets 2 animal focus - one permanent and one temporary?

Shadow Lodge

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That's what it looks like based on the forester's abilities. That's pretty cool.


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Forester wrote:

Animal Focus (Su): As a forester has no animal companion, the aspects granted by this ability always apply to the forester herself, just as if a normal hunter’s companion were dead.

This alters animal focus.
Hunter wrote:
If the hunter’s animal companion is dead, the hunter can apply her companion’s animal focus to herself instead of her animal companion. This is in addition to the normal one she can choose, and (as with a companion’s focus) remains in effect until the hunter changes it instead of counting against her minutes per day.

Seems like it!

Quick question for anyone else that has the book and has looked at the archetypes; am I missing something about the Avalancher Slayer, or does it seem... incredibly circumstantial?

Shadow Lodge

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Yes. It is clearly the "x Terrain/Job" Giant of Ultimate Wilderness.


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I kind of like the Naturalist Occultist archetype. Trade planar focus/intel gathering for nature focus/intel gathering, ability to free action boost saves/skills/ability checks (initiative!) with ordinarily inefficient general mental focus. I like it because it trades away the magic circle/outside contact stuff but keeps Aura Sight and Object Reading; the latter part is unusual for Occultist archetypes.


Xenocrat wrote:
I kind of like the Naturalist Occultist archetype. Trade planar focus/intel gathering for nature focus/intel gathering, ability to free action boost saves/skills/ability checks (initiative!) with ordinarily inefficient general mental focus. I like it because it trades away the magic circle/outside contact stuff but keeps Aura Sight and Object Reading; the latter part is unusual for Occultist archetypes.

Geomancer occultist also very cool.


Rhedyn wrote:
I don't know why people like Green Knight. You lose most of your active features for some passive tankyness increases.

It is an awful archetype

If I where to ask a Cavalier player if they would trade out their mount and Charge ability for an extra 16 hit points they would laugh at the idea, this is actually weaker than that because at least the player with extra hit points will still be unconscious but alive, the green knight will just be dead.

You trade out combat power for wild empathy, more combat power lost for a ribbon.

Banner lost for woodland stride.

A Paladin is very hard to kill, this is just awful.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Green Knight is the exact opposite of awful, unless you love mounted combat, which puts it at the same as Disciple of the Pike. It's a love it or hate it archetype.

Yes they get more HP (at level 20, I'm not sure where you're pulling that specific 16 from). They ALSO aren't staggered or lose additional HP when using Diehard (full attack still online) and they get friggin Stalwart.

While they can both be killed from damage, a Paladin can be knocked out, a Green Knight can't.

And then at endgame they get free Vorpal on their weapons and getting their head chopped off doesn't really bother them.


Rysky wrote:


I'm not sure where you're pulling that specific 16 from). They ALSO aren't staggered or lose additional HP when using Diehard (full attack still online) and they get friggin Stalwart.

While they can both be killed from damage, a Paladin can be knocked out, a Green Knight can't.

I suspect the HP-usable-while-using-Diehard (the Con score HP before truedeath) was what he was talking about. A normal character, when hit hard enough to go down, might still be alive. A character using Diehard, when hit hard enough to go down, is dead-dead.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
shaventalz wrote:
Rysky wrote:


I'm not sure where you're pulling that specific 16 from). They ALSO aren't staggered or lose additional HP when using Diehard (full attack still online) and they get friggin Stalwart.

While they can both be killed from damage, a Paladin can be knocked out, a Green Knight can't.

I suspect the HP-usable-while-using-Diehard (the Con score HP before truedeath) was what he was talking about. A normal character, when hit hard enough to go down, might still be alive. A character using Diehard, when hit hard enough to go down, is dead-dead.

Yes that is a very real risk when using Diehard, so it's the question of what all you can accomplish before you do down for good. Can you keep your allies from getting killed? That's a price some are willing to pay.


Mista Moore wrote:
If this archetype is going to be pfs legal they'll have to errata it in additional resources that you can't use the ability after rounds are up. It'll probably be simpler for them to ban the archetype

" If the rageshaper does not successfully end his devastating form before he runs out of daily rounds, the next time he fails his Will save to revert, he flies into an uncontrollable frenzy as if affected by confusion, but he treats a roll of 26–50 as “attacks nearest creature.” Each round the rageshaper spends in an uncontrollable frenzy, the Will save DC to exit devastating form decreases by 2."

It should honestly just end with you being in an Uncontrollable Frenzy for 1/2 rds that you were in Devastating Form, but you can't use it forever.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Since you get the Shifters Claws you can take Shifter's Edge to make a dex monk much more viable without the Agile AoMF (try combining Shifter's Edge with the Catfolk Monk FCB),

Am I missing something about this? Catfolk's FCB is just being able to reduce falling damage when Slowfalling.


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Rhedyn wrote:
I don't know why people like Green Knight. You lose most of your active features for some passive tankyness increases.

That'd be exactly why. Most cavalier features are terrible. Getting something else for them is a win.


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SorrySleeping wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Since you get the Shifters Claws you can take Shifter's Edge to make a dex monk much more viable without the Agile AoMF (try combining Shifter's Edge with the Catfolk Monk FCB),
Am I missing something about this? Catfolk's FCB is just being able to reduce falling damage when Slowfalling.

You're looking at the pfsrd. It's showing you a 3rd-party FCB. Blood of the Beast adds 1/2 a point of damage to "claw attacks and claw blades."


The Fey Prankster (Gathlain-specific Rogue Archetype) looks incredible for the Steal Appearance ability alone:

Steal Appearance (Sp) wrote:

At 4th level, the fey prankster can exchange the appearance of two adjacent items of the same size. He can also exchange the appearance of two creatures if at least one is willing and both are adjacent. Affecting an unwilling creature or an item it wears or carries requires a successful dirty trick combat maneuver against that creature. If he succeeds, the objects or creatures are each disguised as the other as if with veil cast at his rogue level. The Will save DC to resist or disbelieve the illusion is equal to 10 + half the rogue’s level + his Intelligence modifier. At 8th level, the fey prankster can also exchange the locations of the two targets by succeeding at a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. If he succeeds, observers can’t tell which is the original based on movement without succeeding at a Perception check against his Sleight of Hand result.

This replaces uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.

The Fey Prankster gets Improved Dirty Trick and Greater Dirty Trick as bonus feats at 2nd and 6th levels. The possibilities of this ability both in combat, and in intrigue scenarios is amazing.


That's incredibly annoying that it doesn't show that, considering that Blood of the Beasts looks like it came out Nov 2016.

It looks like Menhir Guardian also stacks with Nimble Guardian, the Catfolk archetytpe. Would the Shifter Claws and their damage/bypassing DR transfer over to Beast Shape, or is that a different ability that the shifter gets to do that while using Wild Shape?


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NoTongue wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
I don't know why people like Green Knight. You lose most of your active features for some passive tankyness increases.

It is an awful archetype

If I where to ask a Cavalier player if they would trade out their mount and Charge ability for an extra 16 hit points they would laugh at the idea, this is actually weaker than that because at least the player with extra hit points will still be unconscious but alive, the green knight will just be dead.

You trade out combat power for wild empathy, more combat power lost for a ribbon.

Banner lost for woodland stride.

A Paladin is very hard to kill, this is just awful.

I'd make that trade, it's better than my current option of getting weapon finesse for my str cavalier. I really don't enjoy mounts or mounted combat, right now the mount is just a donkey for all it's doing.


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I mean, prior to Ultimate Wilderness decent Cavalier archetypes that do not ride anything, do not have any animal companions, and aren't primarily ranged combatants were few and far between.

Would I liked to have kept Banner? Sure, but I'm glad to have traded away Mount for something useful. The Green Knight definitely appeals to me a lot more thematically than, say, the Castellan or the Order of the Pike cavalier. The Daring Champion is decent, but I've played enough swashbucklers already.

Yes, I know, that "Cavalier" derives from "Chevalier" which is literally "horseman" but that boat had already sailed.

Silver Crusade

Chess Pwn wrote:
I really don't enjoy mounts or mounted combat, right now the mount is just a donkey for all it's doing.

The following isn't snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

If you don't like mounted combat why are you choosing a Cavalier as your starting class? If its for mechanical reasons then presumably you've already taken an archetype that trades out mount. If its for flavour, then surely the mount is a huge part of the flavour.

Noble warrior can be done at least as well by lots of other classes if that is what you're interested in.

Personally, I've NEVER understood why Cavaliers EVER lose Mount. Its the defining feature of the class to me, the only reason that I'd ever take a Cavalier unless there was some wonky mechanical reason for a dip (Mothers Fang/Gendarme is a NICE one level dip)

Silver Crusade

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People want to play a Knight class* that isn't a Paladin or revolves around a Mount.

*I know you can take any sort of class and make a "Knight" with it but the Cavalier has enough of the right trappings for it to be mechanically pleasing for a knight as well, with Orders and the Challenge, similar to 3.5's Knight class.


pauljathome wrote:
If you don't like mounted combat why are you choosing a Cavalier as your starting class?

It's one of the few Pathfinder classes I have never played. Unlike the rogue and the wizard and the cleric, it's not something that's sufficiently similar to a class from an older game that I have experience with that I don't feel the need to try it out. Unlike the Gunslinger, it's not an aesthetic preference that makes me avoid the class, there certainly are people who fight from atop a horse/camel/something, I'd just prefer not to be one of them (don't get me wrong, I adore "weird west" but I'd like to keep my weird west separate from my high fantasy.) Generally speaking, I don't really like "pet" classes, so all my rangers take a bond with their companions, my druids take a domain, my paladins eschew a mount, and when I played a Spiritualist it was with that pseudo-magus archetype; it's just extra bookkeeping that I neither want nor need and am happy to trade away for something simpler. Plus, I know from experience that our campaigns tend to feature a lot of fighting indoors or in terrain that's not conducive to charge lanes, unless you can fly or run on walls or something.

So the only thing really that would get me to play a Cavalier is an archetype that recontextualizes the class from "Mounted Combat" to something that connects with me aesthetically, and the Green Knight did that. Though I will have to refrain from making any Monty Python references whatsoever, Eris give me strength.


pauljathome wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
I really don't enjoy mounts or mounted combat, right now the mount is just a donkey for all it's doing.

The following isn't snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

If you don't like mounted combat why are you choosing a Cavalier as your starting class? If its for mechanical reasons then presumably you've already taken an archetype that trades out mount. If its for flavour, then surely the mount is a huge part of the flavour.

Noble warrior can be done at least as well by lots of other classes if that is what you're interested in.

Personally, I've NEVER understood why Cavaliers EVER lose Mount. Its the defining feature of the class to me, the only reason that I'd ever take a Cavalier unless there was some wonky mechanical reason for a dip (Mothers Fang/Gendarme is a NICE one level dip)

Tactician at lv1, order and challenge along with full bab, 4 skill points and eventually bonus feats.

Paladin is close but must be LG and doesn't get the teamwork feat.
Fighters don't get skill points or challenge + order
rangers I don't like due to FE mechanics
And there you can probably see, the other full bab classes can build a noble warrior, but not with the cool mechanics that order can give and the teamwork feats and the challenge replacement.

And you're right, so far I've made do by having a class feature I don't use (my pack animal) or traded it for a thing I'll likely not use but maybe slightly better than a pack animal. Having another option to choose from for these situations is enjoyable. If they made an archetype for a full bab class to give them orders and challenge I'd probably be looking there. But there's not so I'm stuck with cavalier for cavalier features.


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pauljathome wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
I really don't enjoy mounts or mounted combat, right now the mount is just a donkey for all it's doing.

The following isn't snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

If you don't like mounted combat why are you choosing a Cavalier as your starting class? If its for mechanical reasons then presumably you've already taken an archetype that trades out mount. If its for flavour, then surely the mount is a huge part of the flavour.

Noble warrior can be done at least as well by lots of other classes if that is what you're interested in.

Personally, I've NEVER understood why Cavaliers EVER lose Mount. Its the defining feature of the class to me, the only reason that I'd ever take a Cavalier unless there was some wonky mechanical reason for a dip (Mothers Fang/Gendarme is a NICE one level dip)

There are Fighter archetypes that trade out weapon training, Barbarian archetypes that trade out Rage, Bard archetypes that trade out Bardic Performance, Druid archetypes that trade out wild shape, and Alchemist archetypes that trade out alchemy.

Clearly, there is no class feature so “defining” that it can’t be traded away at some point.


Ventnor wrote:
Clearly, there is no feature so “defining” that it can’t be traded away at some point.

The Kineticist archetype that trades out kinetic blast would be a hard one to justify (the Kinetic Knight and Elemental Ascetic just alter it).

Though I could maybe see a Kineticist archetype that trades away the whole "offensive" part of the Kineticist package (Blast, Infusions, etc.) for a more traditional offense (weapons and feats and the like) but keeps their defense and utility talents. That would be hard to pull off I think.

The obvious counterexample I think is a wizard or sorcerer archetype that trades away "spellcasting" probably shouldn't exist.


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While it’s obviously sort of the point I think the order locking and heavy nature theming is a bit of a let down, just because otherwise the archetype really does come pretty close to hitting that unmourned knight concept well.

It also suffers from being kind of a late game archetype. Stalwart is really the first ability that’s all that impressive and you don’t get that until 9. Before that none of its new combat features even do anything if you aren’t dying.

The level 1 is also really unimpressive to me and I’m not sure the writer valued the mount feature highly enough. Hell, even if you never use your mount in combat at all I think trading tactician and 200 pounds of carrying capacity for diehard, endurance and wild empathy is still kind of a wash.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I went through several chapter specifically looking for reprinted items. Here are my notes:


  • Feat – Ambush Awareness: Reprint – Fixed prereq and cleaned up wording. Mechanically unchanged.
  • Feat – Aquatic Combatant: Reprint – Cleaned up wording. Mechanically unchanged.
  • Feat – Aquatic Spell: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Branch Pounce: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Clinging Climber: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Desert Dweller: Reprint – Rewritten substantially.
  • Feat – Extended Animal Focus: Reprint – Cleaned up wording. Mechanically unchanged.
  • Feat – Fey Performance: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Foebane Magic: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Group Shared Spells: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Harder They Fall: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Jaguar Pounce: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – One Eye Open: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Out of the Sun: Reprint – Cleaned up wording. Mechanically unchanged.
  • Feat – Scion of the Land: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Tribal Hunter: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Waterway Caster: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Witchbreaker: Reprint – Cleaned up wording. Mechanically unchanged.
  • Feat – Wolf Savage: Reprint – Cleaned-up and clarified that must be in Wolf Style to use it. Also cleaned-up the effects section.
  • Feat – Wolf Style: Reprint – Cleaned-up and clarified.
  • Archetype – Green Faith Initiate: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Archetype – Green Faith Marshal: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Avian: Gains “(saddle)” to chest slot. Gains “can grasp objects”.
  • Biped (claws): Gains head slot. Gains “can grasp objects”.
  • Biped (hands): Gains “can grasp objects”.
  • Piscine: Appears mechanically unchanged.
  • Quadruped (claws): Gains head slot.
  • Quadruped (hooves): Loses wrist slot.
  • [NEW FORM] Quadruped (short legs): This appears to merge Quadruped (squat-body) and some of Saurian.
    Compared to Quadruped (squat-body): Gains head slot. Loses wrist slot.
    Compared to Saurian: Gains head, shoulders slots. Loses belt (saddle), chest slots.
  • [NEW FORM] Quadruped (other): Appears to be the rest of Saurian and parts of other quadrupeds.
    Compared to Saurian: Gains head, shoulders slots.
    Compared to Quadruped (feet): Gains head slot. Loses wrist slot.
  • Serpentine: Appears mechanically unchanged.
  • [NEW FORM] Unusual (plant and vermin): Appears to merge Verminous and Hexapod (feet).
    Compared to Hexapod (feet): Loses “(saddle)” from belt slot, Loses armor, chest, headband, neck, shoulders, wrist slots.
    Compared to Verminous: Appears mechanically unchanged.
  • Animal Companion – Llama: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Animal Companion – Moose: Reprint – Cleaned up wording. Mechanically unchanged. – I believe the addition of “(gore, 1d8)” to powerful charge is just a clarification, not a change.
  • Animal Companion – Panda: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Animal Companion Archetypes: Please note the sentence “Animal companions with more than one natural attack and only primary natural attacks can’t take a companion archetype that trades out Multiattack.”
  • Animal Archetype – Bodyguard: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Animal Archetype – Racer: Reprint – Unchanged. – Note this archetype doesn’t trade out multiattack.
  • Animal Archetype – Totem Guide: Reprint – Cleaned up wording. Mechanically unchanged.
  • Variant Familiar – Arctic Fox: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Variant Familiar – Ermine: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Variant Familiar – Marine Iguana: Reprint - Note that the Animal Archive version doesn’t change anything from the base familiar.
  • Variant Familiar – Mongoose: Reprint - Note that the Animal Archive version doesn’t change anything from the base familiar.
  • Variant Familiar – Osprey: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Variant Familiar – Parrot: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Variant Familiar – Sea Krait: Reprint - Note that the Animal Archive version doesn’t change anything from the base familiar.
  • Variant Familiar – Snail Kite: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Variant Familiar – Toucan: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar Special Abilities: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar – Arctic Hare: Reprint – It loses the racial to Jump.
  • Familiar – Arctic Tern: Reprint – The loss of weapon finesse is a big nerf.
  • Familiar – Armadillo: Reprint – Mildly nerfed.
  • Familiar – Chicken: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar – Dodo: Reprint – Loses weapon finesse and dropps strength.
  • Familiar – Popoto: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar – Dwarf Caiman: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar – Ioun Wyrd: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar – Giant Isopod: Reprint – Loses racial to perception.
  • Familiar – Kakapo: Reprint – Cleaned-up and clarified.
  • Familiar – Koala: Reprint – Loses weapon finesse, gains CON.
  • Familiar – Lemming: Reprint – Gains an attack, loses climb skill.
  • Familiar – Leopard Slug: Reprint – Speeds were halved.
  • Familiar – Mole: Reprint – Gains tremorsense. Loses perception. Gains 2nd claw, but at lower damage. Loses STR. Trades Skill Focus (Perception) for Skill Focus (Stealth).
  • Familiar – Peafowl: Reprint – Renamed peacock. Otherwise unchanged.
  • Familiar – Penguin: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar – Petrifern: Reprint – Gained an attack.
  • Familiar – Platypus: Reprint – Unchanged, except for an apparent typo on perception. Skills line contradicts senses line.
  • Familiar – Ptarmigan: Reprint – Loses perception.
  • Familiar – Pufferfish: Reprint – Trades Agile Maneuvers for Improved Initiative. Doesn’t seem to have affected anything but initiative.
  • Familiar – Puffin: Reprint – Loses weapon finesse.
  • Familiar – Rabbit: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar – Rhamphorhynchus: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar – Seal: Reprint – STR lowered.
  • Familiar – Squirrel: Reprint – Lost acrobatic feat.
  • Familiar – Wallaby: Reprint – Lost perception. Traded out attack.
  • The rules for when Improved Familiars are allowed appear to be changed. I’m not clear on the new behavior.
  • Familiar Archetype – Emissary: Reprint – The requirement for worshipping a deity from Additional Resources has been added to the archetype.
  • Familiar Archetype – Figment: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar Archetype – Infiltrator: Reprint – The limitation on the familiar’s spell resistance has been removed.
  • Familiar Archetype – Mascot: Reprint – The penalty for a team-member’s death has been removed.
  • Familiar Archetype – Mauler: Reprint – The restriction on speech has been clarified to include any language-based communication. Battle Form has been clarified to be a standard action and has been limited to 3/day.
  • Familiar Archetype – Pilferer: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar Archetype – Protector: Reprint – Tumors can’t be protectors. Loyal Bodyguard requires LOE to master. 11th level includes a HP boost.
  • Familiar Archetype – Sage: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Familiar Archetype – Valet: Reprint – Gains open/close as an at-will spell. Replaces share spells and improved evasion, substantially limiting multiple archetypes.
  • Trick – Aid: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Bombard: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Break out: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Bury: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Deliver: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Detect: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Entertain: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Flank: Reprint – The wording about flanking when use the attack trick, is different from how many GMs rule it today.
  • Trick – Flee: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Get Help: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Hunt: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Maneuver: Reprint – Clarifies behavior without this trick.
  • Trick – Menace: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Trick – Watch: Reprint – Unchanged.
  • Feat – Boon Companion: Reprint – Unchanged.

Silver Crusade

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Squiggit wrote:

While it’s obviously sort of the point I think the order locking and heavy nature theming is a bit of a let down, just because otherwise the archetype really does come pretty close to hitting that unmourned knight concept well.

It also suffers from being kind of a late game archetype. Stalwart is really the first ability that’s all that impressive and you don’t get that until 9. Before that none of its new combat features even do anything if you aren’t dying.

The level 1 is also really unimpressive to me and I’m not sure the writer valued the mount feature highly enough. Hell, even if you never use your mount in combat at all I think trading tactician and 200 pounds of carrying capacity for diehard, endurance and wild empathy is still kind of a wash.

Abilties aren’t always traded out equally for Archetypes, it’s just how they’re structured, you have to look at the Archetype as a whole rather than on an ability by ability basis.

Silver Crusade

I like the dino druid. Does it stack with saurian shaman?


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GinoA wrote:

I went through several chapter specifically looking for reprinted items. Here are my notes:

...

Amazing work! Thank you!


Wait, Mauler got hit with a use/day limit?

...well, time to rethink my PC.

Thanks for the list, though.


Why did the Mauler need a nerf like that? A battle familiar seems to have enough problems without being limited like that.

Shadow Lodge

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While that nerf is brutally unnecessary, I'm not seeing a time limit on each change though.

Pray we get the old Mauler back.


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Rysky wrote:
Abilties aren’t always traded out equally for Archetypes, it’s just how they’re structured, you have to look at the Archetype as a whole rather than on an ability by ability basis.

I mean, if we don't choose to look at these things holistically, the Water Dancer trades Evasion for Burn, which might be the worst archetype trade of all time.


GinoA wrote:
Feat – Wolf Savage: Reprint – Cleaned-up and clarified that must be in Wolf Style to use it. Also cleaned-up the effects section.

The effects were not cleaned up; they were rewritten with a heavy nerf. Bestow curse was replaced with d4 Cha or d4 Con or fatigue, with the restriction that you can't bring a stat to 0 that way.

Conversely, the familiars who lost Weapon Finesse were not nerfed---it was redundant, familiars always get to use Dex or Str, whichever is higher, with their natural attacks.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Conversely, the familiars who lost Weapon Finesse were not nerfed---it was redundant, familiars always get to use Dex or Str, whichever is higher, with their natural attacks.

Delivering touch spells (generally) isn't part of their natural attack, though. Which means it's Finesse or Strength for that.

And in the cases where you're not planning on having your familiar do any attacking, that's a feat you could have traded (in PFS) for an item slot.

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