Relearning cantrips


Rules Questions


Question. Upon reaching certain levels, certain caster classes can swap a spell known for a new one (losing the old one of course). Can you do this with cantrips? My GM says I can't but he can't give me a straight answer of why, meanwhile nomatter where I look everything points to cantrips being spells for all intents and purposes.

Thanks in advance.


Perhaps this passage from Ultimate Campaign will help you.

Ultimate Campaign pg. 191, Retraining wrote:

Spells Known

If you are a spontaneous spellcaster (such as a bard, oracle, sorcerer, or summoner), you can retrain a spell known. This retraining takes 2 days per spell level of the new spell (or 1 day in the case of a cantrip or orison) and requires a trainer who can cast the spell you want. The trainer must cast the same kind of spells as you do (arcane or divine).

The spell with which you’re replacing the previous spell must be another from your class spell list. The new spell must be one you could place in the old spell’s spell slot. Note that this retraining is unrelated to the ability of sorcerers (or other spontaneous spellcasters) to learn a new spell in place of an old one at certain class levels. That class ability is free, happens instantly when the character gains an appropriate level in the spellcasting class, doesn’t require a trainer, and can happen only once for any appropriate class level. Retraining a spell known requires you to spend gp, takes time, requires a trainer, and can happen as often as you want.


Kageshira wrote:

Question. Upon reaching certain levels, certain caster classes can swap a spell known for a new one (losing the old one of course). Can you do this with cantrips? My GM says I can't but he can't give me a straight answer of why, meanwhile nomatter where I look everything points to cantrips being spells for all intents and purposes.

Thanks in advance.

Yes, you can. Cantrips are spells, full stop. 0-level, of course, but still spells.


Dark Midian wrote:

Perhaps this passage from Ultimate Campaign will help you.

Ultimate Campaign pg. 191, Retraining wrote:

Spells Known

[...] Note that this retraining is unrelated to the ability of sorcerers (or other spontaneous spellcasters) to learn a new spell in place of an old one at certain class levels. [...]

I don't think it helps that much...

That being said, yeah, cantrips and orisons are spells.


Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Dark Midian wrote:

Perhaps this passage from Ultimate Campaign will help you.

Ultimate Campaign pg. 191, Retraining wrote:

Spells Known

[...] Note that this retraining is unrelated to the ability of sorcerers (or other spontaneous spellcasters) to learn a new spell in place of an old one at certain class levels. [...]

I don't think it helps that much...

That being said, yeah, cantrips and orisons are spells.

If you keep reading that part, it goes on to say that it's free and instant, not that it doesn't include cantrips. Nowhere in any of that does it say that 0 level spells aren't included and I would certainly hope the OP's GM wouldn't play mental gymnastics with that statement.


Yeah, but I wouldn't use an "this is an entirely different thing from that other thing" rule to argue about said other thing.

The only place that remotely suggests that cantrips / orisons are different from normal spells would be the class writeups where they are, technically, a separate class feature from the "spells" class feature.
Technically.


Dark Midian wrote:
Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:
Dark Midian wrote:

Perhaps this passage from Ultimate Campaign will help you.

Ultimate Campaign pg. 191, Retraining wrote:

Spells Known

[...] Note that this retraining is unrelated to the ability of sorcerers (or other spontaneous spellcasters) to learn a new spell in place of an old one at certain class levels. [...]

I don't think it helps that much...

That being said, yeah, cantrips and orisons are spells.

If you keep reading that part, it goes on to say that it's free and instant, not that it doesn't include cantrips. Nowhere in any of that does it say that 0 level spells aren't included and I would certainly hope the OP's GM wouldn't play mental gymnastics with that statement.

Yeah, didn't work, he basically says that there's nothing there that says you can change a cantrip. I think that, even though the manual says cantrips are spells, he doesn't think cantrips are spells.

I don't think he's going to change his mind unless I find something pretty explicit. Thanks anyway.


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I assume, then, that your GM doesn't require you to make concentration checks to cast a cantrip, nor that you provoke an attack of opportunity while casting a cantrip, and so on?

They're called 0-level spells for a reason. They're spells.


Yeah, it sounds like no matter what hard evidence we give, his GM has his mind made up. Apparently even though 0 level spells are on his spells known list and therefore are spells.


Sounds like your GM is b**#*%%*ting in order to make it look like he wasn't wrong. Even though there's nothing wrong with being mistaken and clarifying things only helps.


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So this means he doesn't allow potions, scrolls, or wands of any cantrip to exist, right? Because those things can only hold spells. Including, explicitly, 0th-level spells, but apparently not cantrips.


Does he allow Orisons or Knacks to be retrained or put into items? Those are also 0-level spells.


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If cantrips aren't spells, what're they doing in my wizard's spellbook? *starts tearing out the offensive not-spells*

Okay, I'll put a few pages back in later.

Now, how do I cast prepare and cast detect magic again? I mean, just because it's in the "Spells" section of the Core Rulebook and all....

/sarcasm


Unfortunately, you won't find anything "explicit." Cantrips/Orisons are spells by definition. They are 0-level spells. They didn't see the need to call them out specifically for any reason because they are spells, no matter how you slice the cake. Your GM just doesn't want to be wrong, even though that's part of the game. Even my GM I have to call out on rules problems (long story short: we're both the most experienced members of the group. He's good at feats, I'm good at magic when it comes to rules questions). Don't let the GM's power trip go to your head. You are right. The "proof" he wants will not materialize, because he wants something that is unnecessary to print. What he wants is a waste of ink. It's an obvious concept. 0-level spell is 0-level spell. If first level spells were also called smeerps, would we have a whole other debate about those, too?


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darkerthought7 wrote:
If first level spells were also called smeerps, would we have a whole other debate about those, too?

Don't get me started on smeerps.


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CRB wrote:

A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

You can replace a spell that you know. One paragraph earlier it states that you know 0-level spells. This isn't complicated.


Kageshira wrote:
I don't think he's going to change his mind unless I find something pretty explicit.

I can't think of anything more explicit than cantrips being called spells repeatedly throughout the class. [cantrips, spells, spells known chart, spells/day chart]

It's not "there's nothing there that says you can change a cantrip" but 'there's nothing that says cantrips AREN'T sorcerer spells', THE only deciding factor in "learn a new spell" section.


Invite your DM here to post why cantrips aren't spells?

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