So here's the relevant text from the Wish spell:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)
If you're dealing with an evil genie/GM then you're going to have a bad time. My question is this: when does "perverting intent" cross the line from creative fun to "gotcha" GMing?
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Language is full of flaws.
It's all up to the GM to decide if he wants to look for every word in the dictionary to make the worst out of the wish or if the wish will be fulfilled with minor incoveniants.
I don't really know, but it's my opinion.
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My question is this: when does "perverting intent" cross the line from creative fun to "gotcha" GMing?
It is going to depend almost entirely on the group (especially the GM).
Many (most?) groups will come to some kind of consensus as to what is allowable from a wish and what are acceptable costs and risks.
I think that the following is how things SHOULD go.
In a home campaign I recently cast a miracle spell (money is quite tight in that campaign so the monetary cost was a huge factor). I'd chatted with the GM ahead of time and sort of come to an agreement with him on the rough boundaries of what I got. I knew that I'd very likely get SOMETHING that would be useful, I was pretty sure that I would NOT get exactly what I was asking for.
The following is a quote from the GM as to the basic agreement. Lothian is the God, Carsten the name of my character.
"No wordsmithing required. Lothian isn't a capricious djinn. In fact, D&D rules notwithstanding, I'd argue no words are even required. Lothian will listen to your soul. He will hear what you want, what you need, and your prayers will be answered.
In other words, I will not in any way try to pervert your request or invalidate it with a loophole or f$&& with you in any way.
1) Yes, if Carsten is wrong, the miracle will fail."
So here's the relevant text from the Wish spell:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)
If you're dealing with an evil genie/GM then you're going to have a bad time. My question is this: when does "perverting intent" cross the line from creative fun to "gotcha" GMing?
This largely depends on what's being asked.
The linked thread example is one that can be perverted in numerous ways. It can give you a dragon that wants to kill you for interrupting its daily hoard bath by teleporting it there. It can give you a dragon that's just a pile of bones (never said it had to be alive), or even a stuffed dragon doll (again, never said it had to be a real dragon). Or hell, it might even turn you into the dragon, but that's being a little generous, something that Fey creatures would do; Djinn are far more sinister creatures.
And when wishes are open-ended like that, without adhering to the clear guidelines listed in the spell description, the ways they can be perverted are similarly formatted.
To be honest, this is the #1 reason why I'd ban Wish/Miracle as a spell to be cast. Yes, I understand that the main intent is that they are meant to be "cureall" spells, but their miscellaneous functions can be (and usually are) handled extremely poorly, and is something that just isn't worth the price tag. The same can be said of any lesser versions of said spells.
Seriously, Wish/Miracle can be chalked up to being one of the most overlooked Trap options in the game when attempting to go outside the listed bounds of the spell. And if you do stay within the listed bounds of the spell, Wish/Miracle are absolute garbage of options.
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For me, it really depends on the power level of the wish. Wish is going to try and do its best to fulfill what you ask for, but at the end of the day, it's a 9th level spell, not omnipotent.
If your desired effect is listed in the spell, it works, no problems.
If your desired effect is in line with something I'd let a caster research an 8th-9th level spell to do, it should be fine as well.
If you want something campaign-destroying or way out of line "I wish all dragons were extinct!" then the gloves come off and the spell tries to fulfill the letter of your request using its limited powers. The more disruptive your wish, the more ironic your outcome is likely to be.
If you're getting this wish granted by a being, filter the last bit through the alignment and attitude of the granter. An evil efreet who is pissed that he's bound in a summoning circle might pervert even the basic "in the spell description" wish. "You wish to be stronger? Have a permanent beast shape II into an ox. Mwahahaha!" Whereas a good djinn who you just rescued and who owes you a favor may actually help you word your wish to get the desired outcome.
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If you want something campaign-destroying or way out of line "I wish all dragons were extinct!" then the gloves come off and the spell tries to fulfill the letter of your request using its limited powers.
Possible way that wish could play out:
A disease starts spreading from dragon to dragon; it has the effect of causing them permanent infertility. In the long run, it will cause dragons to go extinct, unless someone stops it, which would require another Wish or similar.
Wouldn't the path of least resistance be a better guide? You wish for the death of all dragons, you get shifted to an alternate reality, plane or demiplane where dragons have all died off.
If you want something campaign-destroying or way out of line "I wish all dragons were extinct!" then the gloves come off and the spell tries to fulfill the letter of your request using its limited powers.Possible way that wish could play out:
A disease starts spreading from dragon to dragon; it has the effect of causing them permanent infertility. In the long run, it will cause dragons to go extinct, unless someone stops it, which would require another Wish or similar.
The person making the wish is teleported to an undisclosed location under the effects of an Imprisonment spell until such time as dragons become extinct.
The rest of the world carries on as normal.
I'd see those as being too 'gotcha' - at least, if it was a PC making the wish.
The goal of the wish is, presumably, to hurt dragons (for whatever reason).
With my version, it would have the effect of scaring and inconveniencing the dragons. It could be a setup for future plotlines with dragons looking for a diagnosis/cure, or seeking revenge.
If the GM says, "you are transported ninety million years into the future; all dragons are extinct", that just removes the PC from the campaign, and makes them much harder to get back than if they'd merely died. They do not get their money's worth for the wish.
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I don't care how perverse the outcomes of non-listed-effect wishes are as long as the PCs can find them out in advance with a suitable Knowledge(arcana) check. Having to toss ideas back and forth for a while, and eventually pick one of the ones that's "suboptimal but we can live with it," is fine and potentially a lot of fun. The PCs putting in lots of effort and finally coming up with something that they all think is perfectly reasonable while the GM smiles and plots how to screw them over is not fine.
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My question is this: when does "perverting intent" cross the line from creative fun to "gotcha" GMing?
This is ALWAYS going to be subjective. What one group will laugh at, and recall many times overs the years as a good time, will have other groups never playing with that GM again.
That is how it is when "fun" and other things are discussed in the game.
If you are the GM then talk to your table to find out what they consider to be unreasonable by having them list examples.
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You reap what you sow.
Do you deliberately pervert ALL wishes or just some?
I've played under GMs where the worst possible thing a PC could ever get was a wish. For at least one of them for some strange reason NPCs seemed to be able to use wishes with no problems.
Sounds like you may well fall into the first category at least if you're perverting (to the extent of removing a character from the game) a wish to be young and beautiful (a wish that is largely flavour with potentially ZERO game mechanics. Charisma != Beauty and all that).
I'd teleport the player character and everyone in the area to a heck blasted future landscape a few seconds after the last dragon fell.
...
The nearest million Gold Coins fly to you. Out of people's pockets, pouches, ripping through vault doors. Whatever is needed.
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You're now the king of Varisia
...
The world twists and you find yourself looking up at a large face of a smiling woman. You aren't sure who she is. You feel your mind fading out and hear, "You are the most beautiful baby in the world..." Before words become incomprehensible to you...
All those things would, to a greater or lesser extent, ruin any ongoing campaign. The PCs are insanely rich, or dead, or removed from their world.
If you can roll with that, go for it. But I'd rather be more subtle.
There are GM's who allow things that would require the power of epic level spells from 3.5, and others wouldn't.
As an example players in a group basically "Wished" that a CR 26''ish creature would die in a game, and the GM actually allowed it. IIRC, the creature didn't even get a save. In my games that would never have happened. Players aren't mindreaders, so I would just let them know "these are you limits...".
I basically allow Wish to act as a custom 9th level spell. That way if they need something done, but they have no other way to do it, they can try the Wish spell.
I'd see those as being too 'gotcha' - at least, if it was a PC making the wish.
The goal of the wish is, presumably, to hurt dragons (for whatever reason).
With my version, it would have the effect of scaring and inconveniencing the dragons. It could be a setup for future plotlines with dragons looking for a diagnosis/cure, or seeking revenge.
If the GM says, "you are transported ninety million years into the future; all dragons are extinct", that just removes the PC from the campaign, and makes them much harder to get back than if they'd merely died. They do not get their money's worth for the wish.
The idea to simply transport the wisher to a future point in time when wishing an opponent dead was a recommendation I got from Gary Gygax.
I've never seen a reason not to follow that piece of advice.
You reap what you sow.
Do you deliberately pervert ALL wishes or just some?
I've played under GMs where the worst possible thing a PC could ever get was a wish. For at least one of them for some strange reason NPCs seemed to be able to use wishes with no problems.
Sounds like you may well fall into the first category at least.
No, pretty much everyone here has specified that wishes within the suggested parameters work fine. It is when you try to push the spell beyond its safe operating limits that you have problems. The poor spell is going to try, but it just doesn't have the power and sophistication to really control the process. Unforeseen stuff ensues.
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Wishing for an opponent to die? Wish spell simulates finger of death, or possibly destruction. It's probably a waste of a wish, but there are spells lower level than 9th that kill people. Wishes are easy when there's already a lower-level spell that does what the wisher wants.
I'd turn wishing for a million gp into an adventure seed...your long lost great uncle just left you a fortune in inheritance, except he decided to become a lich and now all the money is locked away in his remote dungeon lair. The cash is legally yours but you're going to have to go claim it. The wish becomes the reason for the treasure acquired over the next few adventures. A 20th level lich with PC wealth has nearly a million by itself.
The idea to simply transport the wisher to a future point in time when wishing an opponent dead was a recommendation I got from Gary Gygax.
I've never seen a reason not to follow that piece of advice.
That makes sense, unless you like your players and want to keep them.
Gygax had a lot less competition than modern GMs.
I'd be more likely to turn the opponent into an undead monstrosity.
No, pretty much everyone here has specified that wishes within the suggested parameters work fine. It is when you try to push the spell beyond its safe operating limits that you have problems. The poor spell is going to try, but it just doesn't have the power and sophistication to really control the process. Unforeseen stuff ensues.You reap what you sow.
Do you deliberately pervert ALL wishes or just some?
I've played under GMs where the worst possible thing a PC could ever get was a wish. For at least one of them for some strange reason NPCs seemed to be able to use wishes with no problems.
Sounds like you may well fall into the first category at least.
To go one step further, the context of the wish also matters.
A wish made on the behalf of others or that actively supports the desires of one or more gods is much more likely to be favorably interpreted than a wish made for personal gain or convenience.
My players are going to be facing the destruction of an entire city soon. One of them holds a scroll of Miracle. If she chooses to save the city with a miracle, it will succeed regardless of wording. Because the gods, i.e. the DM, will interpret that wish in the best possible light.
Wishing for an opponent to die? Wish spell simulates finger of death, or possibly destruction. It's probably a waste of a wish, but there are spells lower level than 9th that kill people. Wishes are easy when there's already a lower-level spell that does what the wisher wants.
I'd turn wishing for a million gp into an adventure seed...your long lost great uncle just left you a fortune in inheritance, except he decided to become a lich and now all the money is locked away in his remote dungeon lair. The cash is legally yours but you're going to have to go claim it. The wish becomes the reason for the treasure acquired over the next few adventures. A 20th level lich with PC wealth has nearly a million by itself.
Finger of Death doesn't instakill anything(not since 3.5 anyway). It does hit point damage now and requires a save. Even if there was a 9th level version it would likely require SR, and definitely require a save.
If there was a 9th level that just autokilled everything it would likely get banned at most tables, and paying 25000 gp for a material component would not make the spell ok.
For me it comes down to the question of whether my players and I have the same intent for the game.
If a player is making a Wish or Miracle to do something that would make the game less fun for the other people at the table? I'm likely to pervert it. Although I might also just take the player aside and suggest a rewording of it.
"I wish the BBEG to die this instant."
Ok. You could do that. But that kind of short-circuits the climax we've been building to for the past several sessions.
"I wish that when we next encounter BBEG we are fully prepared to defeat him."
Ah, now that makes things a bit more fun. I'll give the PCs some magic items and weapons and whatnot that are specifically tailored to the BBEG. Nothing that makes it a cakewalk, but something that counters one of the BBEG's strengths.
Or as I put it to one of my players when they jokingly said that they had to learn to rules lawyer "No, you really don't. Because if you start rules lawyering than I'll start rules lawyering and I'm better at it than you. So how about we all agree that we're in this to all have a good time, and I won't try to screw you over, and you won't try to use rules loopholes to screw me over."
(Which is very different than "You had a clever idea I was unprepared for. Yeah, go for it!")
Wishes and Miracles fit the same idea. Wish for something that makes the game fun, and I won't try to use the wish against you.
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Finger of Death doesn't instakill anything(not since 3.5 anyway). It does hit point damage now and requires a save. Even if there was a 9th level version it would likely require SR, and definitely require a save.
If there was a 9th level that just autokilled everything it would likely get banned at most tables, and paying 25000 gp for a material component would not make the spell ok.
I'm aware of that. Part of the point is that instakilling isn't really within the realm of spells anymore in Pathfinder, and an effect like finger of death is about the best that can be done. If someone was just lazily wishing that someone were dead, they'd take 10 damage/CL and get a Fort save against a 9th level spell. Because that's how instant death spells work now. (I get that maybe this was unclear in my earlier post and I apologize for any confusion.)
If they tried to get creative and word it in such a way as to outright kill a foe regardless of their saves or hit points, that to me falls well outside the established power level of a 9th level spell. Thus it would be subject to misinterpretation, in all the fun (or "fun") ways that have come up over the years.
I think many are saying that just because a wish doesn't do just what you what, it might advance your story. In my example of the "crocked" kill all dragons wish, I would show the character consequences of what that would mean. If the character maintained such a mad obsession I would allow his spiraling into destruction to become part of the campaign. If the player somehow thinks that his character should be able to destroy the campaign setting and is intent on continuing disruptive behavior, then I will suggest that perhaps my table is not a good fit for him.
I also agree that a wish can certainly draw in greater powers, for good or for ill.
If they tried to get creative and word it in such a way as to outright kill a foe regardless of their saves or hit points, that to me falls well outside the established power level of a 9th level spell. Thus it would be subject to misinterpretation, in all the fun (or "fun") ways that have come up over the years.
That is what happened.
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That's just it. They're acknowledging that wish can be risky, and you're screwing them over even if they have prepared for those risks. It is a catch-22 that you as the GM are doing because you don't like the players having foresight. Why wouldn't the 30+ Int wizard be able to know how their own spell works?
The point is that no mortal, 30+ Int wizard or not, is able to predict the actual effect of attempting to alter reality with a spell that is not up to the task. You are only calling yourself a god wizard, you are not actually a god.
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For me, it really depends on the power level of the wish. Wish is going to try and do its best to fulfill what you ask for, but at the end of the day, it's a 9th level spell, not omnipotent.
If your desired effect is listed in the spell, it works, no problems.
If your desired effect is in line with something I'd let a caster research an 8th-9th level spell to do, it should be fine as well.
If you want something campaign-destroying or way out of line "I wish all dragons were extinct!" then the gloves come off and the spell tries to fulfill the letter of your request using its limited powers. The more disruptive your wish, the more ironic your outcome is likely to be.If you're getting this wish granted by a being, filter the last bit through the alignment and attitude of the granter. An evil efreet who is pissed that he's bound in a summoning circle might pervert even the basic "in the spell description" wish. "You wish to be stronger? Have a permanent beast shape II into an ox. Mwahahaha!" Whereas a good djinn who you just rescued and who owes you a favor may actually help you word your wish to get the desired outcome.
I do much the same with the perverting depending on the wish granter...
Helpful or benevolent beings will try to twist the wish to either help you or minimize harm e.g. "I wish all dragons were extinct" would see the person planeshifted to another almost identical plane except all dragons are extinct possibly being swapped with a version who wished they weren't. The dragons are unharmed and the person believes they get their wish and is happy.
Neutral beings don't twist it so much as use the wish to get something as close to the letter of what is wished for e.g. "I wish I had X-ray vision" will get you X-ray vision you can't turn off or control to say look through someone's clothes rather than their skeleton.
Evil beings twist it to grant what you wish for in a way you don't want such as a noble trying to avoid an arranged marriage wishing he was unattractive to the bride being turned into a woman arranged to marry her brother.
My players all know if your pushing the limits of a wish you want to find a neutral or helpful being to grant it. Even then the more widespread the effects the more likely it is to fail (a wish all dragons were extinct means all dragons get to make a save and any one succeeding causes the entire wish to fail). As well as unintended side effects like Daw said even if the wish does go off without any flaws it's easy to have something unforeseen crop up.
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That's just it. They're acknowledging that wish can be risky, and you're screwing them over even if they have prepared for those risks. It is a catch-22 that you as the GM are doing because you don't like the players having foresight. Why wouldn't the 30+ Int wizard be able to know how their own spell works?
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)
The GM is adjudicating exactly as the spell description dictates--an overly powerful effect may be either perverted or partially fulfilled regardless of how carefully it is worded. The 30+ Int wizard does know how the spell works--it's right there in the description. The 30+ Int wizard does not know exactly what an overambitious wish will do because that would require a level of foresight approaching omniscience.
Going to use the example from our Rise of the Runelords campaign.
At one point, two of our party members were Disintegrated but we had access to Limited Wish, Contact Other Plane, and a whole bunch of other helpful things as well as a significantly vast library to draw upon for knowledge.
We were able to suss out that there was a lieutenant to Desna (one of the Disintegrated was a follower of her, the other one was militantly agnostic) who would be able to provide what we needed via the path of Wish.
...our previous experience with Wish was to send the entity capable of providing one far the heck away so we'd never, ever have to deal with making one, because we had all seen how BAD Wish could be to a person.
At the time after the party had lost the members, my character was at a moral 'crossroads'. They could very easily have gone to the Dark Side (especially without the moral anchor in the slain Desnan, or the constant testing of their beliefs by the militant agnostic) to try and get the party back. ...and almost did.
We managed to contact the lieutenant, a djinn that served Desna faithfully, but also had a *significant* reputation for being a dick with Wishes he granted. GM pretty much laid it on us in character that whatever Wish we made, the djinn would be holding us to both letter *and* spirit, because this grade and power of deity could easily look into the hearts of aspirants and TELL what they really WANTED.
When they arrived, they looked at the situation, listened to the plea, then turned to my character and said "I will help you on two conditions: One, you must seek Atonement within one moon because you're dealing with some seriously icky nasty stuff and I don't help evil a-holes; Two, YOU must word the Wish".
Up until that point, my character was on a 'sacrifice-anything-and-almost-everything' path to become a dragon. They realized that they could absolutely boiler-plate a Wish to give them what they wanted IN ADDITION to having the party members brought back.
But then there was the realization that the more one 'pushes' on a Wish, the more the Wish pushes back, and the granter was KNOWN to be a total ass about providing them... At that point, the significant other of one of the slain spoke up and said "Look, I don't care WHAT you do, just do SOMETHING!"
The impassioned plea was enough to break the deadlock. "I wish for my companions to be revived, returned to us with their equipment and capable of adventuring with us further." is what was said.
The djinni smiled, said "DONE!", and we had our two party members back... sort of. Our human rogue was an Aasimar, and our catfolk death oracle (the militant agnostic) was an adorable little cat.
I've seen Wish go horribly awry, and I hope that any GM that has that nuclear option handy keeps their finger button off the trigger and not push it unless the characters are truly being monumental a-holes about the use of one.
"I wish all Dragons were extinct!"
"You feel yourself being wrenched from the material plane and are now standing on a floor of mist in a featureless void you recognize to be a very empty demiplane. A Red Great Wyrm laying a short distance away, seemingly the only thing in this entire demiplane, seems to have noticed you with a cruel glint it its eye."
"What?! What happened?! And I thought all Dragons were supposed to be extinct now!"
"Well, there's only one Dragon on this entire plane of existence, imprisoned here for heinous crimes, and since it cannot perpetuate the species by itself that means Dragons are technically extinct on this plane, along with everything else, including you. Especially you."
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My experience has been that if you Wish for a roast beef sandwich, it's probably going to destroy the world. I would never voluntarily use wishes, even for the things listed in the rules.
Something bad happens... Like... Say all of the party dies but the wizard. The Wizard uses a wish, in desperation, to restore all of his team mates...
Ya know? As the GM? I might let it slide... It might work perfectly... It might not... It all depends. One time it might work, the next time it might not.
You figure out which player would be most interesting to see play some weird race and which character is least tied to what race the are, even those out... and make your pick have the effect of Reincarnation as some crazy race of your choice! Maybe they become a Grindylow! Maybe they become a Astomoi! Maybe they become a Tiefling with ears for eyes and eyes for ears! Maybe it happens to the Wizard instead! Who knows?!