I can't understand from the reading of this can a Tengu with Alternate Racial Trait Claw Attack. Then take Vigilante Agathiel and pick animal Chimpanze and gain two Slam attacks at level 2.
I have tried looking through some of the old threads and can't find anywhere where this would be against RAW. This is for PFS and I am thinking it is a great way to quickly get 5 natural attacks. If there are rules that prevent this can anyone site them or link them?
Also can you then dip in White Haired Witch to grab a 6th Natural attack?
I have a similar build, however, I decided to grab 4x claws as the tengu race description says they have claws on hands and feet.
I feel this will give less table variation; some refs will say that the slams are delivered with the same limb as the claws and hence verboten.
Additionally with 4x claws, more benefit from Weapon Focus: claw.
I also did some levels of vigilante but feel the 2nd level feature is more valuable than the agathiel archetype
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Claws can't go on bipedal feet: talons go there. Slams: most DM's associate slams with arms, so for them you would have to pick between 2 of claws OR slams instead of allowing 2 of each.
Thanks for the help folks, so you think taking the chimp won't allow the slams even though slam can be done by ooze and other non limbed creatures. I just can't find where it is against raw.
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Thanks for the help folks, so you think taking the chimp won't allow the slams even though slam can be done by ooze and other non limbed creatures. I just can't find where it is against raw.
Normally ONLY non-limbed creatures are allowed to have slam without limbs. If you look at limbed creatures, they don't have more slams than arms.
Now that's not to say slams would be worthless as claws do S/P damage while Slams do B, so you could cover all your weapon damage type DR's that way.
I honestly wouldn't expect either of those to fly...
Physical Description: Tengus are avian humanoids whose features strongly resemble crows. They have broad beaks and both their arms and their legs end in powerful talons.
Admittedly outside the usual box a bit. But it seems to comply with rules on 1 limb 1 natural attack. (aka eidolon rules).
Velociraptors use talons on their feet as a primary weapon - so do a variety of other creatures.
Isn't this a case of usually being trumped by specific? The tengu racial ability says two claw attacks without specifying a locaation; why is it that the claw attacks cannot be from feet?
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Because in Pathfinder Talons are for feets and Claws are for hands.
Except that the tengu has talons on its hands....
Talon: (dictionary.com)
1.
a claw, especially one belonging to a bird of prey.
More usually, a a bird's talons (claws) are on its feet.
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Velociraptors use talons on their feet as a primary weapon - so do a variety of other creatures.
Yes, and look at every one of them... Any have talons on hands? Nope, they are all on creatures with two legs and on their feet.
Now, look at creatures with claws on feet. Note they are quadrupeds. As Wei Ji the Learner said, it's just how pathfinder does it.
Tengu: while the physical description says talons, the actual rules text states: Claw Attack [Tengus with this racial trait have learned to use their claws as natural weapons. They gain two claw attacks as primary natural attacks].
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Except that the tengu has talons on its hands....
If that's the case, they can't use their claws, as it says "Tengus with this racial trait have learned to use their claws" and by your reading they have none. Their hand have claws and their feet have talons. If you wish, ask for a errata an 'talons'.
Dictionary: Now show me where the hands are on that bird... You have a fluff section not matching a rules section: I haven't seen a DM yet that went with the fluff.
Velociraptors use talons on their feet as a primary weapon - so do a variety of other creatures.Yes, and look at every one of them... Any have talons on hands? Nope, they are all on creatures with two legs and on their feet.
Now, look at creatures with claws on feet. Note they are quadrupeds. As Wei Ji the Learner said, it's just how pathfinder does it.
Tengu: while the physical description says talons, the actual rules text states: Claw Attack [Tengus with this racial trait have learned to use their claws as natural weapons. They gain two claw attacks as primary natural attacks].
Sure: They have learned to used their claws as natural weapons.
Except they have no claws, only talons on hands and feet.
Edit: Just to be clear, graystone. I agree with you. I just think the claw argument has a better chance of succeeding that slams.
Guys this is all great info and I appreciate the discussion but has there been any FAQ on this or is it subjective?
But from what I understand
1: you are looking at the feet as talons for Claw attacks. Then does that free up the arms for Slams(Chimpanze)?
2: also do you need to have different limbs for different natural attacks as some have both a gore and a bite. Same appendage.
I do know with manufactured weapons you need a hand for each weapon and can't use it for both a natural attack and manufactured but fail to see where you aren't able to make two natural attacks with single limb. As Bite and Gore does.
Thanks again for the discussion and helping me to understand this.
Ferro:
Talons/claws: They are different weapons. Talons deal only S damage while Claws do B/S. You can't mix/match them. So no claws on feet and slams.
Head: The head isn't counted as a limb [arm, leg, appendage, ect] so that's why it can have gore and bite. It's not an exception for that reason. So no two attacks on an actual limb.
Thanks @graystone I appreciate it and i think that clears it up.
Well, that's the argument.
However, what's the rules justification. Ie. The player has a race feature and aspect of beast that entitles him to 4 natural attacks.
What's the rules justification to deny?
(Ie rules quote not opinion.)
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To claws:
Pathfinder Design Team Official Rules Response
"Claws and Talons: If I gain claw attacks, can I put those claw attacks on my feet?
If you are a bipedal creature (roughly humanoid-shaped, with two arms and two legs), your claws must go on your hands; you can not assign them to any other limb or body part.
If you are a quadruped (or have more than four legs), you can have claws on your feet. If you have claws on all of your feet, normally you can't use all of those claw attacks on your turn unless you have a special ability such as pounce or rake.
Talons are much like claws, but go on a creature's feet, usually a bipedal creature (especially a flying bipedal creature such as a giant eagle or harpy). An ability that grants you claw attacks cannot be used as if they were talon attacks (in other words, you can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanics so you can use it on a different limb)."
To limbs: "Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks)." + "often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam)"
So added together, you get one attack per limb/body part and slams are linked to limbs. So each limb can make one natural attack and he'd have the options of a single slam or claw per limb.
But just to make sure, if I took the Gore option and had my bite. It would still give me one more primary attack.
But just to make sure, if I took the Gore option and had my bite. It would still give me one more primary attack.
Yes, head isn't a limb. Both bite and gore are usable in the same round. See gargoyles, dragons and any number of other monsters that have and use both at once.
To claws:
Pathfinder Design Team Official Rules Response
.....
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