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Looking to "Riposte" or Attack in Retaliation


Rules Questions


We are going to be starting a all-Paladin campaign, and was looking at a "theme" wherein my character would only attack if attacked -- which lead me to the question of whether there is any sort of full-attack or AoO based "retaliation" type feat wherein it would allow me a counter-attack against those who attack me first. -- this would be a manufactured weapon or shield bash attack

Broken Wing Gambit is the closest I could find, but it still requires an initial attack.


Virtuous bravo

Sczarni

Second the motion on the virtuous bravo. That archetype is what you are looking for--specifically with the opportune parry and riposte deed if that wasn't clear--though you don't get that until level 4. Until then you could just try readying an action to attack someone who takes a swing at you.


Unfortunately, Virtuous Bravo conflicts with Undead Scourge. The "attack only when attacked" rule only applies to the living. :)

I've looked at the readied action, but it misses the mark due to one standard action -- I'd like to either use my full attack as attacks come in, or attack with attacks of opportunity.

My Paladin doesn't have a "swinging swashbuckler" theme -- I'm building him as a dex based paladin sword and board type.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

You.....didn't mention anything about undead scourge in your original post.

Also dex based sword and board also doesn't work, the dex to damage abilities require empty off hands.

Sorry man your base concept can't really be built.


If you want to go Undead Scourge you can just take a single level dip into Swashbuckler, that'll get you Parry and Riposte (which is all you really care about).

Ryan Freire is right, it's gonna be hard to get this working as a sword and board character. I'm fairly sure every way to get DEX to damage will be negated by your shield, so you either have to switch to STR based or ditch the shield (or be content doing minimal damage).

You also would have to use a light/1-handed piercing weapon (if you want to regain panache, which you do), which limits your choices somewhat. You can improve this with Slashing Grace, but again that means you can't use a shield.

As for advice on your build, I'd say go for the ANSWERING weapon enhancement ASAP.

Instead of Broken Wing Gambit, you probably want CRANE WING RIPOSTE instead.


Ryan Freire wrote:

You.....didn't mention anything about undead scourge in your original post.

Also dex based sword and board also doesn't work, the dex to damage abilities require empty off hands.

Sorry man your base concept can't really be built.

I've been able to build a few things in hero lab that seem to work -- it's a little expensive, and takes a bit to come online and requires specific things, but it looks like it can be done.

Longsword with Effortless lace, Heavy Shield with Spikes (Mithril) with effortless lace, Weapon Finesse feat, and two-weapon fighting, and giving both longsword and shield spikes the agile enchants.

In my initial post, I was looking for more of a feat based solution vs archetype, or maybe a weapon enchant that allows for it. What I don't envision is a "3 musketeers" type character.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, you're not going to come online until like level 10


Yeah, unfortunately what you're looking at is. . . not actually supported by the game rules.

First, at a very deep level, remember that combat is simultaneous. It's not really intended to be pictured as a series of turns narratively, even though, just to keep the GM's sanity, that's how it has to be handled structurally. In short, it's not "You go, they go" it's "We're all going at the same time, and the turn order just dictates whose blows land first when there's inevitably a conflict."

That's why what you're thinking of as "riposte" is so heavily gated - it's not "Wait for them to hit me, then bat their sword out of the way and strike back." That is assumed to be happening all the time, whenever they miss a blow and you hit after, for example. What you want mechanically means actually gaining attacks from of being attacked, with the assumption that's in addition to your normal array of attacks. That can result in a lot of attacks, especially if you're not giving any of them up.

The best way to emulate what you want is to build standard sword-and-board, then purposely delay in the initiative until after someone attacks you. If you want to be faster, then you need to build a character that's actually faster, and in PF that's the Swashbuckler (or hybrid archetype.)

Grand Lodge

A concept needs to be immediately relevant. Level 10 is far too late.


Reverse feint is close to what you want, but would require you to be a balf orc. You could look at snake or crane style, using some of the permutations that allow unarmmwd styles to be used with weapons.


Yeah, Snake Style/Snake Fang is essentially what I'm looking for but with a weapon.

Is there a second style or method that allows manufactured weapons to qualify for feats that involve unarmed attacks?

To those who are talking about "coming online". This is going to be a all-paladin campaign, so while I won't be personally maximized in power level, I think I'll be able to survive the campaign.

In the mean time, I'll be a standard sword/board paladin.

Grand Lodge

It's yet to be seen if the career plan is sound or not. Being happy to handle the average joe is fine but if it means stumbling heavily against what can counter paladins, the group is going to suffer much. And I'd advise the GM to not accomodate the group on their single-mindneness.


The way I know to get unarmed stuff to work with weapons is to use ascetic style. Since you want to apply two styles at once you will need to be a MoMS monk, or pick up the weapon style mastery feat, or some other method of using 2 styles at once.


Ascetic Style + Combat Style Master + [Snake Style / Panther Style] would let you use either of those styles with your weapon of choice. You can do it, but I think you need more feats than Paladin will provide.

Swordplay Style is another way of doing it. It eventually gets the ability to mimic parrying.

There is also the Stylish Riposte Weapon Trick. Would work for a one-handed weapon + buckler style build. That weapon could be a bastard sword. Combine it with Unhindering Shield, so you can two-hand the weapon on your turn, then switch to sword and shield as a free action on off turns.


Java Man wrote:
The way I know to get unarmed stuff to work with weapons is to use ascetic style. Since you want to apply two styles at once you will need to be a MoMS monk, or pick up the weapon style mastery feat, or some other method of using 2 styles at once.

Sadly, there is no way to remain a pure paladin and pick these up.

I'll probably have to come up with something with customized enchantments.

Shadow Lodge

Philippe Lam wrote:
It's yet to be seen if the career plan is sound or not. Being happy to handle the average joe is fine but if it means stumbling heavily against what can counter paladins, the group is going to suffer much. And I'd advise the GM to not accomodate the group on their single-mindneness.

I'd absolutely accommodate an all-paladin group. It sounds like a fun time.

That said, "accomodate" doesn't just mean I'd avoid/softball encounters that paladins underperform at. I'd also use higher-CR versions of paladin-friendly encounters like undead and demons - keeping the overall campaign challenge/threat level similar to a more typical party.

Also, when playing a build that takes a while to come online, it's not just about surviving the early game but also about feeling like you are contributing to the party's success. I would feel pretty bummed if I were playing a paladin that did half the damage of all the other paladins for most of the campaign, even if my character survived. And some players might get annoyed if they feel another PC isn't pulling their weight.


Your first thought is probably your best: Broken Wing Gambit. It's a Teamwork Feat, so isn't there a Paladin Archetype with the Tactician Abibility? Holy Tactician or something?

If you took only a 1 or 2 level dip in Monk, Master of Many Styles, you could get 2 Style Feats: Aestetic Style and either Snake or Panther style. Panther Style comes online early, Snake Style is more versatile. But the Bonus Attacks from Panther Style are NOT Attacks of Opportunity, so they would stack better with Broken Wing Gambit.

A Problem with Ascetic Panther Style is that you can only select Monk Weapons to apply Panther Style to. But if your character is a Human, Half Elf, or Half Orc, you can get around that with the Martial Versatility Feat, allowing Ascetic Style, Temple Sword to apply to all swords, including your Greatsword. But that would require 4 levels in Fighter, but on the upside, everyone will pass you the crackers.

When you can afford one, your character wants a Crown of Swords.


If your game is willing to accept 3PP material, the Boxing Sphere from Spheres of Might specializes in this tactic. (And yes, you can do it with bigger weapons, despite the name.)


Quintain wrote:
Java Man wrote:
The way I know to get unarmed stuff to work with weapons is to use ascetic style. Since you want to apply two styles at once you will need to be a MoMS monk, or pick up the weapon style mastery feat, or some other method of using 2 styles at once.

Sadly, there is no way to remain a pure paladin and pick these up.

I'll probably have to come up with something with customized enchantments.

Actually there is, though it is expensive in feats. Two styles & their prereqs, martial focus & weapon style mastery (the short description says two weapon styles, but the full description just says one weapon style and a second style). For snake and ascetic styles that comes to

1: IUS
Human: Weapon Focus (whatever sword you're using)
3: Snake Style
5: Martial Focus
7: Ascetic Style
9: Snake Fang
11: Weapon Style Mastery

Alternately there is the weapon trick (one-handed) using a sword and buckler as mentioned by Ian Johnstone above. That just requires the Weapon Trick and Combat Reflexes feats and BAB +4.

Shadow Lodge

Snake Fang requires Snake Sidewind, so it doesn't come together until level 13.


Ow. Sword and buckler is the way to go then.


If you are willing to forego the shield, Iroran Paladin gives you Improved Unarmed Strike (although it only scales at half Monk speed) and eventually Charisma Mod to AC. The auras this archetype trades out are replaced by more situational auras, but on the other hand, in an all-Paladin party, they will probably be auras the other Paladins don't have.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

A Problem with Ascetic Panther Style is that you can only select Monk Weapons to apply Panther Style to. But if your character is a Human, Half Elf, or Half Orc, you can get around that with the Martial Versatility Feat, allowing Ascetic Style, Temple Sword to apply to all swords, including your Greatsword. But that would require 4 levels in Fighter, but on the upside, everyone will pass you the crackers.

When you can afford one, your character wants a Crown of Swords.

I like this idea, but the 4 levels in fighter is problematic. Is there not any sort of magic item that can change a weapon's fighter group from one to another?

Edit:

It looks like [link=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elven-battle-torrent-combat/elven-battle-style-combat-style]Elven Battle Style[/link] does almost exactly what I want to do. With no problematic drawbacks such as not being able to use a shield -- It's pretty feat expensive, though.

Grand Lodge

Weirdo wrote:


I'd absolutely accommodate an all-paladin group. It sounds like a fun time.

That said, "accomodate" doesn't just mean I'd avoid/softball encounters that paladins underperform at. I'd also use higher-CR versions of paladin-friendly encounters like undead and demons - keeping the overall campaign challenge/threat level similar to a more typical party.

Also, when playing a build that takes a while to come online, it's not just about surviving the early game but also about feeling like you are contributing to the party's success. I would feel pretty bummed if I were playing a paladin that did half the damage of all the other paladins for most of the campaign, even if my character survived. And some players might get annoyed if they feel another PC isn't pulling their weight.

I don't play the same way so I'll clearly give a different response. For me this is already softballing the session. Not doing this would involve using encounters where paladins can't use everything like facing Lawful Neutral kolyaruts. The viability of a PC is seen on how it fares overall and not in a specific case happening only in a minority of cases.

Strict parity contribution is b$*~#&&s. If one PC gets above the melee in contribution ranking, so be it. Mostly that comes down to a pre-session agreement to plan moments where someone should get active or can stay idle. If I speak about the early game, it's not innocent. Not being able to properly handle it doesn't bode well for what follows.

And for the feats... the concept is fine, but it's a paladin, not a fighter so it's a lack of them.

List of feats which are missing in these projections :

- Power Attack
- Toughness
- Ultimate Mercy

For a paladin, I can't really not having these.


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Don't know if it has been said or not:

You need a one handed piercing weapon
You need an Empty Hand
You want a shield

Hit them with your shield. Don't carry a weapon. Not Sword and Board, just board.

Improved Shield Bash + Shield spikes.


Quintain wrote:

Is there not any sort of magic item that can change a weapon's fighter group from one to another?

Magic? No.

Mundane? Yep!
Versatile Design

It does move it's type up a level though: Simple>Martial>Exotic>Impossible(without a specific feat)


toastedamphibian wrote:
Quintain wrote:

Is there not any sort of magic item that can change a weapon's fighter group from one to another?

Magic? No.

Mundane? Yep!
Versatile Design

It does move it's type up a level though: Simple>Martial>Exotic>Impossible(without a specific feat)

Absolutely fantastic!


Quintain wrote:
toastedamphibian wrote:
Quintain wrote:

Is there not any sort of magic item that can change a weapon's fighter group from one to another?

Magic? No.

Mundane? Yep!
Versatile Design

It does move it's type up a level though: Simple>Martial>Exotic>Impossible(without a specific feat)

Absolutely fantastic!

What's really good is that I have a loophole -- I can be an elf paladin, use a elven thornblade, apply the modification and still keep proficiency regardless of the "level" of proficiency required.

Apparently my loophole doesn't exist :/


Quintain wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

A Problem with Ascetic Panther Style is that you can only select Monk Weapons to apply Panther Style to. But if your character is a Human, Half Elf, or Half Orc, you can get around that with the Martial Versatility Feat, allowing Ascetic Style, Temple Sword to apply to all swords, including your Greatsword. But that would require 4 levels in Fighter, but on the upside, everyone will pass you the crackers.

When you can afford one, your character wants a Crown of Swords.

I like this idea, but the 4 levels in fighter is problematic. Is there not any sort of magic item that can change a weapon's fighter group from one to another?

Edit:

It looks like [link=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elven-battle-torrent-combat/elven-battle-style-combat-style]Elven Battle Style[/link] does almost exactly what I want to do. With no problematic drawbacks such as not being able to use a shield -- It's pretty feat expensive, though.

I'd consider forgoing a shield if I were putting together a build that emphasizes Attacks of Opportunity such as with Broken Wing Gambit and Panther Style Feats. When you make attacks of opportunity like this, you can use any weapon you want, so use a big weapon that does lots of damage like a Greatsword. I suppose you could abuse the action economy rules and take the Quickdraw Feat and use a Quickdraw Shield. You put away the shield as a Free Action when you make your attacks then pull it out again after your attack is resolved, but that also might require you to take Free Actions as part of your Attack of Opportunity taken when it's not your turn, and it's by no means certain that your GM would let you do that. I wouldn't.

Another option might be to take the Thunder and Fang Feat and fight with an Earthbreaker in 1 hand and a Klar in the other. I also like the idea of fighting with pole arm and shield via 3 levels in Phalanx Solder Fighter, but you already said you don't like the idea of dipping into Fighter. I forget the name, but I recall there is a Feat that lets you fight with Pole Arm and Shield. Fighting with Lucerne Hammer and Shield could be pretty awesome, and the Reach gives you another way to make Attacks of Opportunity.


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^I think you want Shield Brace. It doesn't even have any nasty prerequisites, except that as a Paladin with no Fighter dip, you will have to wait until 3rd level before you can get it. Use it with a Light Shield (of the non-Quickdraw type) to minimize attack roll penalties. According to Archives of Nethys, it is PFS-legal, but also has PFS-specific errata.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
^I think you want Shield Brace. It doesn't even have any nasty prerequisites, except that as a Paladin with no Fighter dip, you will have to wait until 3rd level before you can get it. Use it with a Light Shield (of the non-Quickdraw type) to minimize attack roll penalties. According to Archives of Nethys, it is PFS-legal, but also has PFS-specific errata.

That's the one! Shield Brace. Thanks, UAE


Upsetting shield style + Readied action?

Ready an action to "Shield bash anyone who tries to attack me"
They declare their attack, you get your readied action.
If you hit, they take a -2 on all attacks against you till the start of your turn.
If you have Upsetting Strike, they provoke an AoO if they miss by 5 or more.
Looking at 4 feats, Combat Reflexes, Improved Shield Bash, and Upsetting Style/Strike

Upsetting Strike

Next feat in the chain lets you make the AoO if they attack a friend and miss.

It is all limited to 1 per round, but so is the elf style.

Shadow Lodge

Philippe Lam wrote:
Weirdo wrote:

I'd absolutely accommodate an all-paladin group. It sounds like a fun time.

That said, "accomodate" doesn't just mean I'd avoid/softball encounters that paladins underperform at. I'd also use higher-CR versions of paladin-friendly encounters like undead and demons - keeping the overall campaign challenge/threat level similar to a more typical party.

Also, when playing a build that takes a while to come online, it's not just about surviving the early game but also about feeling like you are contributing to the party's success. I would feel pretty bummed if I were playing a paladin that did half the damage of all the other paladins for most of the campaign, even if my character survived. And some players might get annoyed if they feel another PC isn't pulling their weight.

I don't play the same way so I'll clearly give a different response. For me this is already softballing the session. Not doing this would involve using encounters where paladins can't use everything like facing Lawful Neutral kolyaruts. The viability of a PC is seen on how it fares overall and not in a specific case happening only in a minority of cases.

For game design or character building, absolutely you need to take a class/PC's weaknesses into account and make sure they're not too severe. However when designing encounters as a home GM my goal is to make sure that my specific players are having fun and being appropriately challenged. If my players decide that an all-paladin party will be a fun time, I'll do my best to make sure that the party neither trivializes demon encounters nor risks a TPK because I threw them against a tick swarm that they couldn't effectively damage.

Philippe Lam wrote:
Strict parity contribution is b&$*#&!s. If one PC gets above the melee in contribution ranking, so be it. Mostly that comes down to a pre-session agreement to plan moments where someone should get active or can stay idle. If I speak about the early game, it's not innocent. Not being able to properly handle it doesn't bode well for what follows.

I'm not exactly clear on what you're saying here. I agree that it's not realistic to expect everyone to contribute exactly equally, but combat encounters are a lot less fun for me if I feel like I'm clearly and consistently the least valuable combatant on my team - like if I'm doing half the damage that anyone else is doing.


Paladin has enough archetypes that unless you absoluely HAVE to have a 9 level caster for your adventures they'll be fine and varied.

They can cover basically all status removal with mercies, and raise the dead at a relevant level.

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