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Yes I'm gonna come out and ask this, is inspire courage as necessary as people like to make it out to be as in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't feel like a +3 to attack and damage is all that relevant in the long run.
Even more so now that Blazing Rondo exists. If you are allowed to use that masterpiece, why would you ever use inspire courage past level 6?
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I mean, you could always actually cast haste along with your performance. The bonuses from inspire courage also come more quickly (they both get up to a +4).
Inspire Courage is pretty amazing if you have the right party composition (lots of martial characters).
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Yes I'm gonna come out and ask this, is inspire courage as necessary as people like to make it out to be as in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't feel like a +3 to attack and damage is all that relevant in the long run.
For most groups the attack bonus is the bigger deal than the damage bonus. +3 to attack is an extra 15% chance to hit. (Roughly! I know it’s dependent on many factors.) Thats a big deal, especially when you are talking about iterative attacks with low base to-hit chances. The damage is just extra gravy.
Even more so now that Blazing Rondo exists. If you are allowed to use that masterpiece, why would you ever use inspire courage past level 6?
Haste does not stack with Blazing Rondo. Haste does stack with Inspire Courage.
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I mean...
Instead of Blazing Rondo, you could just cast Haste and use Inspire Courage at the same time. They're both are available starting at 7th level and as they both scale up, it's less AC and Reflex bonuses than Rondo sure, but it gives more to-hit, a bonus to damage and you don't have to ever worry about Rondo's fatigue or range limit. And Rondo also scales a bit slower.
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I mean, you could always actually cast haste along with your performance. The bonuses from inspire courage also come more quickly.
Inspire Courage is pretty amazing if you have the right party composition (lots of martial characters).
See my argument is that not going to always be the case. Usually a party is only going to have about 4-5 people to get things from being chaotic.
The Tank/Frontliner,The Blaster/Striker, The Skill Monkey, and the Face(Which will likely be the bard in question) and a 5th to be named later likely a dedicated healer.
You would have all your bases pretty much covered but only like 1 of them would take full advantage of the bonus I.E the Frontliner Everyone else would likely have other means of contributing or the bonus just ends up being wasted on them. Least from my perspective
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Honestly, there are only two advantages to blazing rondo- reflex saves and AC.
but if I was going to trade out inspire courage, I feel more inclined to use an archivist with haste. A lot of the same effect really- bonus to attack and AC, and the effects of haste.
The only thing you are really missing out on is the bonus to reflex. But that is the worst save anyway, so meh. You end up with higher attack and AC (since you get haste's normal bonuses, on top of the bonuses from archivist's replacement for inspire courage). And there is no time limit before you risk debuffs either with this.
Most people would just keep inspire courage+haste though. You are not really starved for actions- you are likely not doing much attacking during the round you bring up performance anyway, so you might as well toss a spell.
I can understand having blazing rondo as an option- it lets you save on a spell slot by trading performance, so it is a fine side tool. And maybe as a defensive option when facing hard hitters. But that is about it- most would look for the higher damage the majority of the time.
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well in your 5 man party you have 4 people that are benefiting.
the frontline/tank is like you mentioned.
the skill monkey loves it (rogues, slayers, investigators, rangers, alchemists, bards, inquisitors), especially rogues since they have problems hitting.
the face (bards, oracles, paladins, ninja, skalds, rogues, swashbucklers, ) should easily be built to love it.
and the "healer" (cleric, alchemist, shaman, oracle, bard, druid) also has a good chance of loving it.
That means in the party of 5 that only the wizardy one isn't benefiting.
Now if your parties of 5 tend to only have 1 person doing combat then sure it wont be good, but that's more the party being built bad than the bards fault.
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it just doesn't feel like a +3 to attack and damage is all that relevant in the long run.
So, let's say my 11th level Fighter with a Greatsword is fighting an Adult Black Dragon. The bard has already buffed him with Good Hope.
(I'm making up numbers here; I don't think it makes much difference how optimized he is.)
He can power attack for:
+22/+17/+12 2d6+28
The dragon has AC 28.
His average damage per round is 52.5.
Now let's say he's been buffed with Inspire Courage.
+25/+20/+15 2d6+31
His average damage per round is 74.1
So that's a 41% increase. Irrelevant? No: a single class feature has increased the entire party's damage output by almost half.
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I don't usually see the standard party anyway. In the game I'm GM'ing there's a magus, a swashigator, a multiclassed rogue, a monk/shaman and an arcane trickster. All of those benefit from haste and would benefit from inspire courage. In the PbP I'm in which has been running longest I'm playing the only character (a wizard) who wouldn't benefit much from haste or inspire courage, the cleric, rogue, cavalier and monk/sorcerer would all like such bonuses.
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Be interesting to have a review of Bardic Performance classes and archetypes, since quite a lot of things other than Bard have archetypes that get Bardic Performance (including Inspire Courage).
Of course, the other thing I want to see is an all-Bard band party . . . .
The problem with Blazing Rondo is that if you play it for more than two rounds, you'll Fatigue the entire party at some point (if you go unconscious or are silenced, that may be immediately), with a saving-throw based on your spell DC. (Naturally this will mean that anyone already Fatigued becomes Exhausted.)
(Blazing Rondo is not PFS-legal.)
We've had a bard around here who gives out +5 to hit and damage from about level 8 (now +6 at lvl 12 I think) using Inspire Courage and a flag. It's pretty amazing.
Eh, I think he has the Flagbearer feat and a Banner of the Ancient Kings (which doubles the morale bonus of Flagbearer to +2, and treats your bard level as +4 for Inspire Courage). It's +5, but it's a combination of morale and competence bonuses.
Saves on the pale green ioun and bracers of archery, that's for sure.
Also handy if you have a summoning focused caster around.
a bard would be a literal god sent for one of my characters i want to play, at level 11 i would be making 8 attacks with my bow so that's a lot of bonus to hit and damage
True. The static bonus to damage gets far more mileage when you are dealing with a many-hit style build, such as archery or TWF.
You can basically treat the "+3 attack/damage" as "+3 attack and +6 damage" when you compare it against something like a 2 hander.
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I've played quite a few bards in PFS so they've played with a VERY wide assortment of different groups.
A buffer bard is an amazing addition to most groups. Sure, occassionally you get a group where the martials are SO powerful they don't need the help OR so weak that the help isn't enough.
There was the one game where we were all casters and relying on Summon Monsters to be meat shields and do damage. +5 to hit/damage was pretty darn essential.
But the vast majority of the time that extra +5 to hit/damage (buffer bards ALL take the Banner of Ancient Kings or something better) makes my character responsible for the most damage at the table most of the time (the extra +5 is, of course, mine but more importantly all those hits that would have missed are "mine").
The ONLY time my buffer bard hasn't been a very (or most) valued member of the group was when there was ANOTHER buffer in the group. 2 buffers is usually about 0.8 too many
A buffer bard is an amazing addition to most groups. Sure, occassionally you get a group where the martials are SO powerful they don't need the help OR so weak that the help isn't enough.
There was the one game where we were all casters and relying on Summon Monsters to be meat shields and do damage. +5 to hit/damage was pretty darn essential.
Yeah. That is how I view bards- a multiplier on parties that hit things.
But if you are playing a caster heavy party (and no one goes with summoning), then a witch might be better (a penalty to enemy saves when your party has Save or Suck characters is fairly similar to a buff to attack rolls with a martial party; it is all about making those d20s more likely).
Conversely, if the party has weak casting in terms of SoS spells, then witches are not really worth it (example- a party with a paladin, bloodrager, and ranger- each have spells, but they are 4 levels and usually use a secondary stat; never great for DCs)
Even in a caster-heavy party, those ranged touch spells become a lot more reliable when you have that buff to offset a crappy BAB. And a few attack-vs-normal-AC spells that get no mileage at all suddenly have a fighting chance.
To agree with pauljathome above, the only party I've seen that wouldn't benefit greatly from a bard is a party that already has one.
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As an archivist, I am mostly convinced that naturalist is better than inspire courage, (except with animal companions, since it's language dependent), because I think AC and saving throws against all unique abilities is better than extra damage and anti fear stuff, and the bonus to hit is the same.
You have to identify stuff first, but you get lore master at like second level, so you can take 10 and generally ID anything since your knowledge should be solid.
The only problem I've had is that so many bard items only boost inspire courage, which is a big issue for PFS play sadly so I can't talk to the dm and make it work with naturalist.
As an archivist, I am mostly convinced that naturalist is better than inspire courage, (except with animal companions, since it's language dependent), because I think AC and saving throws against all unique abilities is better than extra damage and anti fear stuff, and the bonus to hit is the same.
What's fun is you don't have to choose. Inspire Courage's competence bonuses stack with Naturalist's insight bonuses. My favorite PFS games are the ones when my Arcane Duelist and his Archivist pal are both at the table.
Naturalist is strongest when there's a single enemy target, or at least a bunch of the same species. When there's two or more equally dangerous but very different enemies, it isn't as effective.
*Puts naturalist in the final slot for a bard/arcane duelist/skald adventuring party*
Maximum buffs!
*Puts naturalist in the final slot for a bard/arcane duelist/skald adventuring party*
Maximum buffs!
In a spellcaster heavy group a Magician Bard can do pretty well. But at higher levels even a core bard has Dirge of Doom to lower all enemy saves by 2.
And an all-Bard/Skald band party is born . . . .
Ranger makes 4 attacks with bow animal companion makes 3 two weapon fighter makes 6 and the cleric throws down their 3 You give them all +3 to hit and damage and you've effectively given out a grand total of +48 to hit and +48 to damage (provided no crits.) per round.
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Also if your going to do an all bard party you still need at least one cavalier preferably named robin.
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Also if your going to do an all bard party you still need at least one cavalier preferably named robin.
. . . Who everyone wishes had gone VMC Fighter to get Bravery . . . .
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I've got a party with a witch, a psychic, two monks, and a paladin. They've hit the haste stage via the psychic, and it has shown a massive effect on combat.
They have actively pledged to AVOID NPC bards as allies, specifically because of what it could do.
Bardic music has proven itself over time and across tables: it is that good, even in a "normal" party. In a party that by chance or design can exploit it? It's amazing.
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See my argument is that not going to always be the case. Usually a party is only going to have about 4-5 people to get things from being chaotic.
The Tank/Frontliner,The Blaster/Striker, The Skill Monkey, and the Face(Which will likely be the bard in question) and a 5th to be named later likely a dedicated healer.
You would have all your bases pretty much covered but only like 1 of them would take full advantage of the bonus I.E the Frontliner Everyone else would likely have other means of contributing or the bonus just ends up being wasted on them. Least from my perspective
If the Skill Monkey, Face, and Striker aren't benefiting from Inspire Courage, you're probably doing something wrong (though a Blaster, if you have one, probably wouldn't benefit). Everyone should contribute in combat, and if they can't you've got a problem.
Frankly, the idea of 'face' or 'skill monkey' or even 'healer' as a role separate from 'tank' or 'damage dealer' or 'controller' is weird. The two are entirely separate things. One is an in-combat role and the other an out-of-combat role, and any two can be readily combined. Most Paladins combine tank and face, for example, often with a side of healer, while a Slayer or Investigator is likely to combine skill monkey with damage dealer, and most Bards combine some damage dealing and a whole lot of party buffing, and a Cleric can combine healing with either tanking or control stuff quite easily.
Most parties will have at least three out of four or five characters who Inspire Courage benefits (including the Bard themselves). There are certainly parties that's not true of, but they are distinctly in the minority.
As for Blazing Rondo, any Bard can do Haste so you're not giving up all that much by not using it, to be honest. I mean, even at 15th level, you're giving up +2 AC and +2 Reflex (the bonuses it has over Haste) for +4 to hit and +4 damage, which is a very good trade that makes Inspire Courage look quite good.