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All I can think of is it getting the same or similar damage as a druid with a little higher to hit bonus.With self buffs like bloody claws, strong jaw, magic fang, ect I doubt the druid will have less to hit or damage and natural attacks don't care about actual BAB so...That's what I figured. The more I think about the Shifter the more confused I am by why they didn't just straight up copy over Wild Shape.
Like everyone was saying, the nerfed version isn't any simpler and in fact introduces more books to check when trying to sort it out. The fact that it gets early pounce is frustrating because it makes the class's wonky power curve even starker and seems to be an issue of balance that might see banning in PFS. Since they don't have real Wild Shape its more confusing to tell what happens when multiclassing druid.
This class fails every possible design goal I could imagine:
It's not new player friendly AT ALL, requiring a high degree of system mastery to break even with other characters and it's loaded with irreversible trap options.
It's not a master shapeshifter, as we've all concluded, because other builds shift more often and to more forms (regardless of being more effective while doing it).
It's not a good archetype chassis for future builds because it has too few class features to swap out.
It's not a decent natural attacker outside of wild shape because it doesn't get as many feats or as much damage or attacks as it needs to be competitive.
It's not a "utility" character like core rogue since it's required to hoard uses of its wild shape for combat, and there are too few form options over the course of most play.
I wish people who like the class would actually tell the rest of us what they find compelling about it because I'm at a loss.
I can jump in on that last one, as I am one of those weird people who likes the class. Before I go further though I want to state that though I "like" the class, I also think it is terribly designed to do what it's trying to do, like square wheels on a cart meant to be pulled up hill bad in some places.
So, with that out of the way, here we go...
I dig the idea of a martial class that gets steeped in druidism. The whole idea has long gone undefined and has been a problem since 3.5 and getting these guys who also get druidic, the poster child of secret languages helps grow the mystique and our understanding of both that language and the druidic traditions as Pathfinder wants to define them by adding these guys to the mix. We now have a thematically clear example of what druidism sees as an acceptable martial non-fullcaster, and that's cool to have, it presents and hints at options to how the hierarchies of nature magic focused groups might work now.
I also really like the idea of fewer forms BUT more power. Having a class that gets straight up more shifts, for more time, with the same range sets you in a bind as a designer since you would have to balance the challenge of any event/encounter against the possiblities of ANY possible form they could wildshape into, and since that already sucks with spellcasting and Wildshaping IS supposed to be the core of the Shifter I can see why you would go to smaller list of forms for them rather than ALL possible forms being on the table at any given time. This also gives you as a designer the freedom to really dig into every option and buff them up, giving players certain abilities earlier than Beast Shape might normally give them, offering abilities those spells might not usually give, or a host of other options. I'm personally down for getting to be a great white shark if my Great White is a mean ass bastard 3x what the druid is getting from his wildshape power at my level.
I also like the idea of a specialized weapon list. Cutting it down to a specialized theme takes away a lot of easy options that come with just giving simple, martial, etc. but it also allows you to pad the list with more weird options that now might see more play than they would in another list where they might not stand out or might require a feat like say repeating crossbow proficiency with the inquisitor or rapiers on a rogue. The former needs too many feats for a lot of people to invest and the rapier isn't that great on it's own, but when you give my class free proficiencies and then incentivize them with build options like feats & class abilities, I'm more likely to want to play with them.
Finally, the potential to take this skeleton and reskinning the theme around other creatures/creature types is just too good once you stew on it. Like, imagine shifters designed around turning into magical beasts, undead (the necrophile), aberrations, or even just nightmares. Like I've already started to concept the idea of dragon worshipping shifters who turn into dragons they praise! That's f!++in' cool, and something I'd kill to get legalized at say a PFS event or have in a book that I can just show my players or my GM and just play.
Now, all that said...
And all of that is before you get into certain parts of its design philosophy, like how the want to constantly shift and swap your forms to really get utility and freedom of expression through play is directly at odds with the mechanic it's based on, which wants you to as others have pointed out hoard your shifts as much as possible just in case you need all of them. This mechanics dissonance is a compounding influence as it's counterintuitive design makes utility, niche, and/or specialized options basically unusable traps as any of those qualifiers is anthema to the design and WILL PUNISH YOU FOR TRYING TO HAVE FUN WITH THEM IN THIS GAME. Now, in another game where there is minimal combat, way more limited magic, and maybe a focus on what is more often associated with skills in this game this build might work, but in a world where things like the druid already exist this design ain't cuttin' it.
This leads to the one thing I hate the most, house ruling it. Don't get me wrong, houserules are not bad in their own right, but having to do it to even make the class work is bad game design on so many levels. It makes consistency of play experience as unlikely as possible, as players have to worry about the fixes from table to table being so radically different that having any idea of how to build the thing is impossible. It sets bad precedent to the consumer as it says that I as the consumer, am expected to pay full price for this thing that doesn't work, and then fix it for them in my own time, and then only get to use that in what games I either run or can convince the GM to let me use, and then pray that any errata that gets released doesn't completely upend whatever stuff I make and potentially have been using for months if not years since it was released. And that last point is particularly bad, as once we all start fixing it, everyone starts to get crystallizing opinions on "what" that fix is supposed to look like, and the longer Paizo waits, the more likely it is that people are not going to accept their fixes, as people begin to become so accustomed to their own repairs and invest their own time into fixing it and making it work that they are likely now a bigger expert on their own class than Paizo is and potentially on the base shifter itself. And all that just leads to what is essentially Schism Conflict that Paizo would be ceding their authority for every day that passes and they don't post a fix. It's basically how you start an edition war over a class.
I would assume just the attacks that are using the claw's stats. I believe it seems to be tied to just 2 attacks.Oh you're right, I forgot that shifter's edge only applies to your claws or the natural attacks that your claws are replacing.Re-reading Shifter's Edge and the Shifter Claws abilities, it's actually really unclear what counts as "augmented". Is it all natural attacks, since they get the benefit from the DR bypassing ability? Is it just whatever attacks have had their damage boosted by Shifter Claws?
Maybe, but if that's the case the huge nerf from full level to half level is even more massive. If it's *all* natural attacks then it's more reasonable.
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I can jump in on that last one, as I am one of those weird people who likes the class.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you're saying that you like the idea of a shifter, some full bab druidic/nature martial that has limited but powerful shifts to help them. But that you then go on and state how this shifter doesn't meet any of those ideals you had for it.
Thus you really don't like the shifter, you just like the concept of something like the shifter existing.
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The idea of the shifter is good. The execution could hardly have been more discouraging in terms of "actually making something I'd want to play."
Like the one shifter I'd be willing to play tomorrow is an elementalist that shifts into an air elemental (or w/e) for scouting and utility and back to a person for actual fighting.
Like the one shifter I'd be willing to play tomorrow is an elementalist that shifts into an air elemental (or w/e) for scouting and utility and back to a person for actual fighting.
Yep, the most 'playable' shifter is the one that actively discourages your changing shape [at least as far as combat goes]. :P
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I liked the idea i saw upthread about basically the shifter working like an eidolion.
The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacksHuh, I didn't notice that and completely forgot about that power attack rule. For other people's reference, power attack has a 1.5x multiplier when making a natural attack that adds 1.5x your Strength (for example most Bite attacks do this). That build assumes it adds the 1.5x damage to ALL natural attacks.
If something is your only natural attack its at 1.5 OR if you're a dragon your bite is at 1.5
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This thread makes me want to play a Feral Hunter.
Which reminds me I want to play a Hunter first.
So many character concepts. So few games and time :(
If something is your only natural attack its at 1.5 OR if you're a dragon your bite is at 1.5The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacksHuh, I didn't notice that and completely forgot about that power attack rule. For other people's reference, power attack has a 1.5x multiplier when making a natural attack that adds 1.5x your Strength (for example most Bite attacks do this). That build assumes it adds the 1.5x damage to ALL natural attacks.
Which is literally never the case for Shifters.
Which is literally never the case for Shifters.If something is your only natural attack its at 1.5 OR if you're a dragon your bite is at 1.5The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacksHuh, I didn't notice that and completely forgot about that power attack rule. For other people's reference, power attack has a 1.5x multiplier when making a natural attack that adds 1.5x your Strength (for example most Bite attacks do this). That build assumes it adds the 1.5x damage to ALL natural attacks.
There are forms, like the Mouse, that only have 1 attack.
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I can jump in on that last one, as I am one of those weird people who likes the class. Before I go further though I want to state that though I...
I think a lot of people really liked the concept of the Shifter...a martial focused shape shifting class, the Druid equivalent of the Paladin, etc. The hype over the class had a ton of people super excited for it (myself included).
Mechanically it just falls apart, poor wording, vague text, archetypes that simply cannot function without massive house ruling, and on, and on.
Which is precisely why there are several 1000+ post threads about it...people want the Shifter as a concept...People just do not want the version of the Shifter we have been given (Or at the very least want some of the glaring problems fixed)
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...and not be called 'whiny' for wanting a better/corrected product, that Paizo has more or less built it's reputation on over the years.
It took time to put this together, so the fervent hope from this corner is that it will take at least as much time to take it to the autopsy table, perform the autopsy, discover how to make it a viable, livable class that everyone can enjoy, whether it be with Aspects or Specialized Wild Shape (possibly with a different name to prevent confusion with 'True' Wild Shape?), etc.
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I feel like people are way too down on Ultimate Wilderness just because of the Shifter though. Like the Shifter has a whole host of problems, which may not be fixable, but the rest of the book is full of good stuff that I fear people are overlooking because so much emphasis pre-release was on the new class.
Like there are way more words spent on the forums on the Oozemorph than there are that Cavalier archetype that rides a dinosaur (which is eligible for the draconic template, so you can have a firebreathing dinosaur) and that feels wrong. Like on one hand we have a class that's going to need a bunch of clarifications from somebody before it's playable, and on the other hand we have a firebreathing dinosaur.
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I feel like people are way too down on Ultimate Wilderness just because of the Shifter though. Like the Shifter has a whole host of problems, which may not be fixable, but the rest of the book is full of good stuff that I fear people are overlooking because so much emphasis pre-release was on the new class.
Like there are way more words spent on the forums on the Oozemorph than there are that Cavalier archetype that rides a dinosaur (which is eligible for the draconic template, so you can have a firebreathing dinosaur) and that feels wrong. Like on one hand we have a class that's going to need a bunch of clarifications from somebody before it's playable, and on the other hand we have a firebreathing dinosaur.
You know another book that only has one new class in it? Ultimate Magic with the Magus, Paizo's greatest contribution to the 3.x design space.
Expectations were high that paizo would be able to nail a much desired character concept because they have done so in the past. Yet what we get is basically worse than any other PC class in the game. And only arguably better than some NPC classes.
Paizo messed up pretty badly to let the shifter be released in this current state. It's a huge hit to their reputation.
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I feel like people are way too down on Ultimate Wilderness just because of the Shifter though. Like the Shifter has a whole host of problems, which may not be fixable, but the rest of the book is full of good stuff that I fear people are overlooking because so much emphasis pre-release was on the new class.
Like there are way more words spent on the forums on the Oozemorph than there are that Cavalier archetype that rides a dinosaur (which is eligible for the draconic template, so you can have a firebreathing dinosaur) and that feels wrong. Like on one hand we have a class that's going to need a bunch of clarifications from somebody before it's playable, and on the other hand we have a firebreathing dinosaur.
To be fair though, several of those options are glaring with identical problems that the Shifter has in terms of functionality in general.
There's a new Totem Rage Power chain that has a capstone that is literally undefined as to how it works or scales, and is awaiting a FAQ/Errata for it to even work. (I don't know what the other parts of it do, so I don't know if the rest of the chain works or not.)
There's a Rogue archetype that had potential, but upon close inspection, has a glaring issue with lack of scaling with the Witch Hex options it can take in place of Rogue Talents. We don't know if this is intentional or not, but as written, and until we get further clarification, the Hex options do not scale with Rogue level, and any Hexes that require a high enough Witch level to even take, cannot be taken with this option.
And these are the ones that we know of that I've participated in. I haven't read the new archetype for Cavalier, so I don't know if there are any issues with that archetype or not, but saying the Shifter is the only major problem in the book, and it being the sole reason people are turned off about the book as a whole, isn't as accurate as it may seem.
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I feel like people are way too down on Ultimate Wilderness just because of the Shifter though. Like the Shifter has a whole host of problems, which may not be fixable, but the rest of the book is full of good stuff that I fear people are overlooking because so much emphasis pre-release was on the new class.
IMO, I think that people are 'down on Ultimate Wilderness' just about the right amount. For myself the MAIN draw was the new class. Having it be sub-par was a BIG hit on my opinion of the book. Add to that the sizable reprint count and a good chunk of 'mastering the wild' section are things I doubt I'll need or see use out of.
Like there are way more words spent on the forums on the Oozemorph than there are that Cavalier archetype that rides a dinosaur (which is eligible for the draconic template, so you can have a firebreathing dinosaur) and that feels wrong. Like on one hand we have a class that's going to need a bunch of clarifications from somebody before it's playable, and on the other hand we have a firebreathing dinosaur.
Oh, there ARE nifty things in the book... You just need to bring a shovel and dig through a pile of stuff you don't want/need to get to it.
Speaking of that Cavalier archetype, I found a nifty combo: a small cavalier with a Dimorphodon. Since they "can ride mounts of his size
category and larger", they can ride a flying mount through 5' tunnels even after Titanic Mount kicks in. ;)
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The idea of the shifter is good. The execution could hardly have been more discouraging in terms of "actually making something I'd want to play."
Like the one shifter I'd be willing to play tomorrow is an elementalist that shifts into an air elemental (or w/e) for scouting and utility and back to a person for actual fighting.
Damn, google ate my post.
Anyways, this. I love the idea but I don't love it enough to let the mechanics run my fingers through the meat grinder to try and make it just "run". What's worse is that it sets a bad precedent as it makes customers doubt the quality we should expect of classes worked on in a void, and sets the stage for a schism as a lot of players never touch the class, those that are left start to build fixes, and everyone begins to rally around the ones they like. Once that happens Paizo's basically lost the ability to fix it, as even just taking 1 of the options that's doing the best turns off everyone else that doesn't like it, and the longer they wait the more likely this is to occur. Dogma gets set, schisms occur, and we end up with 5 different versions of this and the original that never gets fixed because in the meantime the hype train for it died and the sales of UW tank. Which is a shame, cause there is A LOT of really great stuff in here besides that, it's just that when the flagship of the title and the literal first thing in the book is all off kilter no one usually turns many more of the pages to see that stuff.
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I can jump in on that last one, as I am one of those weird people who likes the class. Before I go further though I want to state that though I...I think a lot of people really liked the concept of the Shifter...a martial focused shape shifting class, the Druid equivalent of the Paladin, etc. The hype over the class had a ton of people super excited for it (myself included).
Mechanically it just falls apart, poor wording, vague text, archetypes that simply cannot function without massive house ruling, and on, and on.
Which is precisely why there are several 1000+ post threads about it...people want the Shifter as a concept...People just do not want the version of the Shifter we have been given (Or at the very least want some of the glaring problems fixed)
Read part 2 of my post, that's basically the back half. I've been floating around in this discussion and even done a whole rewrite of the class that's up here somewhere. The thing is I still love the idea of the Shifter, even their weird monk/druid hybrid thing, but that doesn't mean I'm not allow to critique the thing that did come out of that dev oven. It's still important to examine the things we love, hell, it's why I did a giant freakin' rewrite, and I hope Paizo does too.
In the meantime though, I'm going to enjoy my new snake shifter build that can also turn into a giant anaconda AND continue to bring this s$+* up until Paizo says something or drops a hotfix.
I mean, we still don't even have a shark form! And the shifter feels like something I want to see in a Skull & Shackles game that attacks sailors thrown into the water to the Jaws theme.
I mean, we still don't even have a shark form! And the shifter feels like something I want to see in a Skull & Shackles game that attacks sailors thrown into the water to the Jaws theme.
Nah, you're better off with an Aquanaut Fighter using Shark Style and the Boot Equipment Trick so you can make a 90-degree turn in the air and knock people off of boats.
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I feel like people are way too down on Ultimate Wilderness just because of the Shifter though. Like the Shifter has a whole host of problems, which may not be fixable, but the rest of the book is full of good stuff that I fear people are overlooking because so much emphasis pre-release was on the new class.IMO, I think that people are 'down on Ultimate Wilderness' just about the right amount. For myself the MAIN draw was the new class. Having it be sub-par was a BIG hit on my opinion of the book. Add to that the sizable reprint count and a good chunk of 'mastering the wild' section are things I doubt I'll need or see use out of.
Graystone more or less echo's my sentiment exactly. Sure there are a few interesting things in there...but they are not what I waited with "bated breath" for months for. The Shifter is a huge disappointment IMO, the archetypes for it are, like the base class interesting ideas, but either very niche, or badly in need of clarifications in order to be playable.
That along with the large number of re-prints.....leaves me rather Meh about the whole book.
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I personally appreciate some of the reprints, because having it in hardcover makes it a bit more accessible to some folks who aren't gifted with the ability to afford all the splats they'd cover.
That being said, it's clear a lot of work went into this, but it's also clear that something was either missed or there was a lot of 'shorthand' that was used during the design/development process that got left on the cutting room floor, as it were.
This is not the most troubled work I've seen, but it was the one I was waiting anxiously for, even subscribed for vs. the other product, which was kind of a 'surprise' when I acquired it.
I personally appreciate some of the reprints, because having it in hardcover makes it a bit more accessible to some folks who aren't gifted with the ability to afford all the splats they'd cover.
I can appreciate that for some, the reprints are a good thing. I don't begrudge them that, but it's not the same for me as I have access to the original books. For me, it's just padding the book with info I have AND nerfing it to boot.
That being said, it's clear a lot of work went into this, but it's also clear that something was either missed or there was a lot of 'shorthand' that was used during the design/development process that got left on the cutting room floor, as it were.
Oh I'm sure work went into this book but it feels like the end 'polishing' stage got skipped where all the tiny errors and loose wording could have been caught. The shifter however seems to have more systemic issues that seem to have come from a shifting of gears part way through the design phase.
This is not the most troubled work I've seen, but it was the one I was waiting anxiously for, even subscribed for vs. the other product, which was kind of a 'surprise' when I acquired it.
For me the most 'troubled' would be the ACG. After that, I NEVER preorder/subscribe for Paizo products as ACG totally destroyed all the good will they'd built up to that point. After ACG, quality had been doing mostly fine until this. Glad I held off getting my own copy to look at it first.
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Read part 2 of my post, that's basically the back half. I've been floating around in this discussion and even done a whole rewrite of the class that's up here somewhere. The thing is I still love the idea of the Shifter, even their weird monk/druid hybrid thing, but that doesn't mean I'm not allow to critique the thing that did come out of that dev oven. It's still important to examine the things we love, hell, it's why I did a giant freakin' rewrite, and I hope Paizo does too.
In the meantime though, I'm going to enjoy my new snake shifter build that can also turn into a giant anaconda AND continue to bring this s#+# up until Paizo says something or drops a hotfix.
I mean, we still don't even have a shark form! And the shifter feels like something I want to see in a Skull & Shackles game that attacks sailors thrown into the water to the Jaws theme.
I am 100% agreeing with you...no one is complaining about the concept of the Shifter...everyone loved the idea of it.
I think the original comment of
I wish people who like the class would actually tell the rest of us what they find compelling about it because I'm at a loss.
was meant more towards the people who like the mechanics...since just about everyone likes the concept of the Shifter.
It took time to put this together, so the fervent hope from this corner is that it will take at least as much time to take it to the autopsy table, perform the autopsy, discover how to make it a viable, livable class that everyone can enjoy, whether it be with Aspects or Specialized Wild Shape (possibly with a different name to prevent confusion with 'True' Wild Shape?), etc.
Time between the rogue and the ninja was...?
For me the most 'troubled' would be the ACG. After that, I NEVER preorder/subscribe for Paizo products as ACG totally destroyed all the good will they'd built up to that point. After ACG, quality had been doing mostly fine until this. Glad I held off getting my own copy to look at it first.
I felt like I was done with Paizo after the ACG, but then a friend told me to take a look at Occult Adventures and that book was 110% my groove. So hopefully Planar Adventures is going to be a lot of people's cups of tea.
I think having come to terms with the extent that I was put out by the ACG is why Ultimate Wilderness doesn't bother me much.
I felt like I was done with Paizo after the ACG, but then a friend told me to take a look at Occult Adventures and that book was 110% my groove.
LOL Occult was about 40% my groove so it didn't improve my mood that much.
So hopefully Planar Adventures is going to be a lot of people's cups of tea.
Maybe. In the best of times, I don't think I'd be super stoked to have it as I expect it to be chock full of background info instead of player info.
I think having come to terms with the extent that I was put out by the ACG is why Ultimate Wilderness doesn't bother me much.
It's totally helped manage my expectations... Start low so you aren't disappointed. :P
I'm not going to name the other product out of respect for the designers, developers, and authors who worked on it.
It shouldn't require setting the bar below 'fighter' so anything better is an improvement.
not going to name the other product out of respect for the designers, developers, and authors who worked on it.
I don't see criticism as bad as long as you aren't mean about it. If you don't like a product, how do those designers, developers, and authors know why you didn't like it if you never say anything? I don't think they expect what they make will be everyone's 'cup of tea', so I don't see that it'd be disrespectful to say it wasn't yours.
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I mean, we still don't even have a shark form! And the shifter feels like something I want to see in a Skull & Shackles game that attacks sailors thrown into the water to the Jaws theme.Sounds like the shark-kin Skinwalker.
Or a plain ol' archetypeless druid.
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I don't see criticism as bad as long as you aren't mean about it. If you don't like a product, how do those designers, developers, and authors know why you didn't like it if you never say anything? I don't think they expect what they make will be everyone's 'cup of tea', so I don't see that it'd be disrespectful to say it wasn't yours.
A particular product already had a LOT of attention focused on it, and corrections were made.
One should probably move forward from such things, hopefully wiser for that instance.
However, if the lessons are not remembered, then sometimes it requires revisiting them.
A particular product already had a LOT of attention focused on it, and corrections were made.One should probably move forward from such things, hopefully wiser for that instance.
However, if the lessons are not remembered, then sometimes it requires revisiting them.
Uwild had some corrections made? or are you talking about another book cause I want to see corrections if their are some.
Another product, not Ultimate Wilderness.
Ok well someone yell at me if they lay down some extreme errata I'll be super grateful.
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I'll say it before and I'll say it again. I'm worried that we will get archetypes made for the Shifter in future books. Not only does that solidify the fact that they won't change the Shifter but puts a real fear in me that there's always going to be a section in future releases that I will never, ever bother reading and my only hope for a proper martial shapeshifter is some future prestige class or a unchained version years down the line completely incompatible with archetypes that have cool concepts but shackled by the current shifter. I really regret my purchase and I'm getting real sick of the circular discussion at my table about how much the class disappoints us, my group. Merry Christmas Paizo.
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I'm up to two sections now. I don't read new Summoner stuff very much at all since it's all the lackluster Unchained. No, I'm not talking about the pouncing death machines of Actually-Less-Chained Summoner either.
Saw it myself. I really like the fact that you get so many base forms with a ton of variations on starting stats and evolutions, but the fact that it's a new subtype means yet again the poor future proofing of unchained subtypes severely limits your options. I'm normally not a fan of swapping SM for SNA, but you'll most likely be using the eidolon so its not a loss.
But it's funny you bring that up. The way the Shifter is going over reminds me of my initial reaction to reading over the U-Summoner. It seems like a major downgrade from its counterpart (druid in this case) and way more restrictive in options. However, much like the U-Summoner, I do hold hope that future content will patch things up and offer more options.
Let's hope the Shifter gets its own Morphic Savant one day.
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I still haven't bought a Paizo product since the crane wing nerf. (it's not always in my mind, but now I just associate negative feelings to buying something from Paizo)
Paizo's veers too much into making underpowered garbage to avoid overpowered stuff. Unless it's for casters. Prestigious Spellcaster came out last year and opens up tons of character builds.
Way too much unfun material in PF that serves no purpose other than being a trap (see shifter).
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I think this is one of the cons of releasing books that are so much combinations of GM and player material. Ultimate Wilderness by all accounts is a *great* resource for GMs looking for good rules and ideas to add wilderness elements to their campaigns or run full survivalist type adventures.
That doesn't really matter to people who just wanted a shape shifter martial class though.
So the review would really seem to be 4 or 5 stars if you're looking for GM stuff. 1/5 if you're looking for a new class.
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I think this is one of the cons of releasing books that are so much combinations of GM and player material. Ultimate Wilderness by all accounts is a *great* resource for GMs looking for good rules and ideas to add wilderness elements to their campaigns or run full survivalist type adventures.
That doesn't really matter to people who just wanted a shape shifter martial class though.
So the review would really seem to be 4 or 5 stars if you're looking for GM stuff. 1/5 if you're looking for a new class.
I imagine classes in these books are like cakes (or ice cream cakes if you don't like cake) and everything else is delicious frosting. It's hard to be happy about delicious frosting when you really wanted some cake but it wasn't very good. Yeah some people will scrap the frosting off but most people will dump the cake in the trash. Yes that makes splat books the equivalent of spraying a can of whipped cream in your mouth.
There are forms, like the Mouse, that only have 1 attack.Which is literally never the case for Shifters.If something is your only natural attack its at 1.5 OR if you're a dragon your bite is at 1.5The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacksHuh, I didn't notice that and completely forgot about that power attack rule. For other people's reference, power attack has a 1.5x multiplier when making a natural attack that adds 1.5x your Strength (for example most Bite attacks do this). That build assumes it adds the 1.5x damage to ALL natural attacks.
Of course, given how tiny the Mouse form is (and it is literally size Tiny), a Shifter would wild shape into that form for scouting rather than combat anyway.
The Bull would be a more relevant single attack form.
There are forms, like the Mouse, that only have 1 attack.Which is literally never the case for Shifters.If something is your only natural attack its at 1.5 OR if you're a dragon your bite is at 1.5The funny thing is that he messed up Power attack and how it works with natural attacksHuh, I didn't notice that and completely forgot about that power attack rule. For other people's reference, power attack has a 1.5x multiplier when making a natural attack that adds 1.5x your Strength (for example most Bite attacks do this). That build assumes it adds the 1.5x damage to ALL natural attacks.Of course, given how tiny the Mouse form is (and it is literally size Tiny), a Shifter would wild shape into that form for scouting rather than combat anyway.
The Bull would be a more relevant single attack form.
Mouse was just the first one off the top of my head. Wolf and snake could have been mentioned too. However, mouse can see combat BECAUSE it's scouting and because of the EXTREMELY limited amount of number of wildshapes makes it untenable to shift for multiple purposes a day: if a shifter can kill something as a mouse, they aren't going to turn into a better combat form and use up a wildshape, especially when in enemy territory.
I was just mentioning that the Mouse form is bad at combat for reasons other than having only a single bite attack.
I was just mentioning that the Mouse form is bad at combat for reasons other than having only a single bite attack.
*shrug* I thought that would be pretty clear, though the main thrust of my argument was to disagree with "Which is literally never the case for Shifters". It's clearly not going to happen with a form picked for combat but the way the class is built you have to expect forms picked for other reasons will see combat anyway switching forms is so onerous.
I do wonder if the vanilla shifter can be made workable if you choose aspects that are bad at fighting, and you fight in your base form almost exclusively.
Maybe if you dip monk and take feral combat training so you can flurry with your claws?
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I do wonder if the vanilla shifter can be made workable if you choose aspects that are bad at fighting, and you fight in your base form almost exclusively.
Maybe if you dip monk and take feral combat training so you can flurry with your claws?
The question with that idea is "how is that then better than taking the monk archetype in the book that gets claws like the shifter that it can flurry with?"
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You can pretend to wear armor and think it's doing something for you?