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You're ignoring the fact that the polymorph rules say you get the speed of your new form and we have no speed listed for that form and this creates an issue.
Option 1, I read the rules with the persnicket cranked up to asmodeous. The Ooze morph has a base land speed of 1/0 because it doesn't have a speed of zero it doesn't have a speed. Math breaks. the world collapses in on itself, game over.
Its been addressed and sorted through. I reached a decision and explained it. It was not ignored.
Its like fishermans hell: You can go on the boat but you can only take beer or bait. You take beer. You don't ignore the fact that you have no bait, you just deal with it. You make decisions like that all the time once you accept that you're not dealing with a perfect system.
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When reading the rules and following them exactly results in a non workable end state, then it needs to be FAQ'd. I genuinely cannot comprehend why you and a couple others in this thread are so opposed to this.
I am not opposed to an faq.
I am resigned to the fact that the faq process has been dead for 6? months and that new problems arise faster than they're addressed. Much. Much faster.
Partially because of that, I am opposed to the enshrinement of a raw is law and anything else is a house rule mindset that's bleeding out of the rules forum (especially when "house rule" is used as a perjorative). I am in favor of the best conclusion you can reach given the available evidence you have approach, and really don't like it when examining the rules as anything BUT the raw is law approach is somehow ignoring them.
It's a different rules paradigm. It's out there. It's the way the rules are supposed to be read. It's not perfect but its track record is MILES ahead of raw. One is not automatically wrong or house ruling for using it.
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You're ignoring the fact that the polymorph rules say you get the speed of your new form and we have no speed listed for that form and this creates an issue.Option 1, I read the rules with the persnicket cranked up to asmodeous. The Ooze morph has a base land speed of 1/0 because it doesn't have a speed of zero it doesn't have a speed. Math breaks. the world collapses in on itself, game over.Its been addressed and sorted through. I reached a decision and explained it. It was not ignored.
Its like fishermans hell: You can go on the boat but you can only take beer or bait. You take beer. You don't ignore the fact that you have no bait, you just deal with it. You make decisions like that all the time once you accept that you're not dealing with a perfect system.
It's not persnicket rules it's basic clear rules. Polymorph replaces your speed. Like it's right there. Pathfinder is permissive, if it doesn't say you can break the normal rules you can't. Oozemorph doesn't say it can break the normal rules so it can't.
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So, don't get me wrong, Oozemorph is broken and requires a FAQ. However, I am not above house-ruling it towards functionality.
In such a ruling, I do not assume to know RAW or RAI, merely choose to create a stable play area for my players until a FAQ is created. If the FAQ goes against my ruling, I will reevaluate my houserule.
Wait, I thought it was treated as a polymorph effect not is a polymorph effect.
So why does speed change?
...Who's on First?
Welcome to the discussion, Starbuck_II. In the corner you will find nice padded couches to lounge upon. It's much harder to get the blood pumping if one is reclined and relaxed, after all.
Don't think it'd be appropriate to go over roughly four pages of discussion over the topic, but feel free to peruse the last few pages of posts to get an idea of why speed does/does not/uncertains.
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Wait, I thought it was treated as a polymorph effect not is a polymorph effect.
So why does speed change?
Because there's no difference between "is treated as an X" and "is an x" unless it gives you exceptions. Its absolutely horrible language and I wish they'd quit using it.
Saying "treated as" is easier to tack on an "Except in this case".
It is more difficult to go "This is a polymorph effect except it isn't really." than to go "We treat this as polymorph for this and this, but not that."
They boil down to the same thing, but the one is easier to add exclusions to.
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So, don't get me wrong, Oozemorph is broken and requires a FAQ. However, I am not above house-ruling it towards functionality.
In such a ruling, I do not assume to know RAW or RAI, merely choose to create a stable play area for my players until a FAQ is created. If the FAQ goes against my ruling, I will reevaluate my houserule.
I don't think anyone here has an issue with that stance. BigNorseWolf seems to be the only one that sees a negative connotation in calling it houseruling. I don't think anyone is against houseruling but against calling something that's it's not.
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When reading the rules and following them exactly results in a non workable end state, then it needs to be FAQ'd. I genuinely cannot comprehend why you and a couple others in this thread are so opposed to this.I am not opposed to an faq.
I am resigned to the fact that the faq process has been dead for 6? months and that new problems arise faster than they're addressed. Much. Much faster.
Partially because of that, I am opposed to the enshrinement of a raw is law and anything else is a house rule mindset that's bleeding out of the rules forum (especially when "house rule" is used as a perjorative). I am in favor of the best conclusion you can reach given the available evidence you have approach, and really don't like it when examining the rules as anything BUT the raw is law approach is somehow ignoring them.
It's a different rules paradigm. It's out there. It's the way the rules are supposed to be read. It's not perfect but its track record is MILES ahead of raw. One is not automatically wrong or house ruling for using it.
*wakes up, peeks back into thread*
Yeah, pretty much this ^
I don’t think I’ve actually seen anyone oppose wanting a FAQ or more answers from the Designers, it’s just been “this archetype is completely unplayable” vs “no it’s not”.
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it’s just been “this archetype is completely unplayable” vs “no it’s not”.
I'd say it's been 'this archetype is completely unplayable without a houserule or FAQ' and 'you can play it with RAI without making a houserule...'. If people would have been saying 'it's easy to fix it so it works', I don't think there's be pushback. It's the 'it's workable as/is' attitude that gets people up in arms.
Saying "treated as" is easier to tack on an "Except in this case".
It is more difficult to go "This is a polymorph effect except it isn't really." than to go "We treat this as polymorph for this and this, but not that."They boil down to the same thing, but the one is easier to add exclusions to.
Until people say its not really a polymorph effect so i can throw an enlarge person on someone right?
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It depends on the specefic wording. If we say "It counts as a polymorph effect for all purposes except that you keep your base races move speed." then we can stop it from interacting with enlarge person.
But my point still stands. It probably has something to do with the way the mind works.
If you say something IS something else it creates a concrete expectation. Saying you treat it as something else is a bit more flexible.
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it’s just been “this archetype is completely unplayable” vs “no it’s not”.I'd say it's been 'this archetype is completely unplayable without a houserule or FAQ' and 'you can play it with RAI without making a houserule...'. If people would have been saying 'it's easy to fix it so it works', I don't think there's be pushback. It's the 'it's workable as/is' attitude that gets people up in arms.
That’s what RAI is, your interpreting the Archetype to intentionally not be playable, others aren’t. It’s not houserules.
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Clarity cannot come soon enough.
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Rysky, I need to understand where everyone is coming from so I shall attempt flow charts:
People saying it is broken:
Effect says treat as polymorph -> Polymorph says you take new form's speed -> ability says new form is blob -> Blob has no speed ->WAIT WAT SPEED DO I HAVE!!?!
People saying it is not broken:
Effect says treat as polymorph -> Polymorph says you take new form's speed -> ability says new form is blob -> Blob has no speed -> Use base form's speed
Have I effectively summarized both parties standpoints here?
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I feel the people who are saying it are broken are very definately following what is written and are following correct logic.
People who are saying it works are following correct logic, but then make a logical jump at the last step that I cannot justify in the realm of RAW. It is perfectly justifiable in making the archetype actually work, but there is no indication in the text that I am aware of that suggests that this logical step should be made.
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Rysky, I need to understand where everyone is coming from so I shall attempt flow charts:
People saying it is broken:
Effect says treat as polymorph -> Polymorph says you take new form's speed -> ability says new form is blob -> Blob has no speed ->WAIT WAT SPEED DO I HAVE!!?!People saying it is not broken:
Effect says treat as polymorph -> Polymorph says you take new form's speed -> ability says new form is blob -> Blob has no speed -> Use base form's speedHave I effectively summarized both parties standpoints here?
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I feel the people who are saying it are broken are very definately following what is written and are following correct logic.
People who are saying it works are following correct logic, but then make a logical jump at the last step that I cannot justify in the realm of RAW. It is perfectly justifiable in making the archetype actually work, but there is no indication in the text that I am aware of that suggests that this logical step should be made.
I don't much care about the dispute you raise (since I don't think RAW is well defined, RAW vs RAI is a moot point as far as I'm concerned).
However, it seems to me that the dispute hinges on what it means to "take the new form's speed". I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but perhaps you can see the logic of the second group (even if you disagree with their interpretation) if they are reading "take the new form's speed" as being "replace your base speed (and various other attributes) with whatever is listed under the new form". I suspect their view is that since no speed is listed, the replacement doesn't happen which implies you don't lose your speed (although other traits are replaced).
Again, you clearly wouldn't accept that interpretation (and they could probably word it better than me) but if that is what one thinks is meant by "taking the new form's speed" then it isn't illogical to take the final leap in your statement of the second viewpoint.
In other words, your final step would not be "use base form's speed" so much as "Blob has no speed -> no replacement happens"
On that reading there isn't a logical dispute but a semantic one.
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Also, I have a lot of issues with the art In the book; they are supposed to inspire me to try that archetype or else am I Wrong?
If so; Stormcaller, Famelic orc who eats tofu and insects (or Rot Warden), and that guy walking over pee (p. 88).
Are you talking about the picture of the Floodwalker? He's walking on water, why would you think that's urine?
Is this guy a troll? It's so hard to tell these days...
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Thank you very much Steve. I had not thought of that.
That actually very neatly summarizes the dispute.
I can definitely agree that that interpretation makes significantly more sense here, and I would very possibly rule that way in my games.
However I do feel that this is ambiguous enough that we definitely need it clarified.
The question is "What happens when we polymorph into something that does not have something that we gain with that polymorph effect, such as a base speed?"
This is an issue far more general than the specefic case of the oozemorph if we view the contention as "what happens when we try to swap something with polymorph but there is nothing to swap?" rather than focusing on "How does the oozemorph work?".
I hope this excercise has potentially helped clear up where the dispute actually is, and we can actually now argue the pertinent issue rather than the symptoms of the issue.
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So to pose the question, what happens when polymorph tells us "each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume."?
So, it tells us what to do if it has a greater or lesser movement type, we gain the greater or lesser benefit as appropriate.
What is does not do is tell us what to do if the form has NO movement type.
So if we are a strix and polymorph into a cat, do we keep our fly speed? A cat has no fly speed listed, so we lose the fly speed.
If we were to polymorph into a stone as a dwarf, we would lose our movement speed as well because the stone has no movement speed.
If we polymorph from our base form into an ooze, and the ooze has no form listed, following the previous cases, we would lose our move speed as none is listed.
If we apply the interpretation of "You only change it if the new form has a listing for it, otherwise you keep it" our stone gets to move and our cat can fly.
This obviously creates issues, and I am very likely over simplifying the case of those who say it works as written.
Both arguments break the game in different places. The one breaks the oozemorph, the other breaks polymorphing into any form that has no speed listed for a movement type you have.
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"what happens when we try to swap something with polymorph but there is nothing to swap?"
This is pretty key, and Graystone mentioned it a while back. If you allow that when polymorph tells you to take something from a new form but that form doesn't have that thing you can take things from the original form you open a can of worms.
Any form based feature then should be retained if the new form does not possess it. Among those are natural armor bonuses and natural attacks. Making that assumption only for speed just isn't consistent.
Also, the assumption that you keep your original speed is *more* of a rules lawyer type of approach because it makes zero sense in game. Instead of switching to a new form's everything and coming to the conclusion that there was a print error because you don't have a speed you go back and say "ah, but the polymorph rules tell me to switch the old with the new and since there's nothing to switch to I should keep the original because the rules don't tell me what else to do. this interpretation is not a houserule! :)"
I don't think it's likely a new player choosing this new player class would have to come to that conclusion on their own. They'd probably say" I just spent hours reading the polymorph rules and I'm more lost than ever" so I don't think it's reasonable to say the current oozemorph works fine as is. There needs to be an errata.
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Oh, I agree there needs to be clarification. I mostly wanted to highlight what the core issue is so we can actually figure out how to deal with that
There is no new (polymorph) [ooze] form in Fluidic Body. So you can't use the rules that refer to abilities of the form.
Well I guess you CAN, but that interpretation causes the game to break down.
Also you are assuming "This is treated as a polymorph effect" applies to oozeform and not the ability itself.
This interpretation has many consequences:
1. Oozeform is not a Polymorph form it's English shorthand for your new base form. It's not a Polymorph effect, it alters your base form in specific ways. Nor would an anti magic field reverse you to your base race since oozeform is not an SU ability, it's your base form with some edits.
2. You have to put on magical equipment after shifting and could not benefit from 24h perma bonuses.
Actually I find this interpretation more compelling now.
An SU ability has to be suppressed in an anti magic field. I doubt oozeform is the exception. "This" is ambiguous. In rules text, you can always refer to the ability because it is assumed in context. But in English a pronoun normally refers to what is most recently talked about.
But if oozeform is not a polymorph effect, then both developer intent for magic items and the rules being functional are satisfied. You still end up with wonky interactions with flying races or other special movespeeds types, but oozeform is nonviable anyways because you can't use magic items in it.
SIDE NOTE: Since you revert to oozeform when unconscious, you can never get 24h perma bonuses.
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SIDE NOTE: Since you revert to oozeform when unconscious, you can never get 24h perma bonuses.
Oh boy... A poorly written archetype for a poorly written class. Really should have had a playtest. God the biggest insult to injury would be if they made MORE archetype for this class.
I can honestly see two things possibly happening now. Somehow a druid archetype sneaks out the gate that gives up spellcasting and you get full bab, d10 hd, and a bonus feat at first level and every 4 levels after first. Then a product gets put out years later with a unchained shifter, incompatible with possibly a dozen cool archetypes that "fix" the Shifter.
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Actually I find this interpretation more compelling now.
An SU ability has to be suppressed in an anti magic field. I doubt oozeform is the exception. "This" is ambiguous. In rules text, you can always refer to the ability because it is assumed in context. But in English a pronoun normally refers to what is most recently talked about.
But if oozeform is not a polymorph effect, then both developer intent for magic items and the rules being functional are satisfied. You still end up with wonky interactions with flying races or other special movespeeds types, but oozeform is nonviable anyways because you can't use magic items in it.
SIDE NOTE: Since you revert to oozeform when unconscious, you can never get 24h perma bonuses.
Few effects cause you to need sleep... Even spell casters don't need sleep, but must rest (do nothing for 8 hours).
Now to optimise the shifter base class.
Human 20 point buy: 18str 12dex 14con 14int 8wis 12cha.
Pump umd, Grab heavy armor Prof.
Grab big 5, a wand of bark skin (12th level 18000), a wand of shield (10th level 7500), a wand of fly, a wand of heroism, and dragon hide plate. Assume someone is casting haste.
Forms: Tiger, Bat, Monkey, Wolverine, Snake
In Wolverine grab rage powers superstitious and witchhunter.
Start Monkey each day, use tail for wands. Shift to Wolverine for boss killing.
AC: 9 base + 1 Dex + 14 plate + 5 monk + 9 nat + 5 def + 4 shield + 1 haste -2 rage = 46 AC
To hit: 20 Bab - 1 size - 6 PA + 14 str + 5 enh + 2 moral + 1 haste = 35
Attack: (+35 for 2d8+31)x3 and +35 for 1d6+31, +6 if witchhunter applies.
Drop power attack for bosses with AC in the 50s.
Isn’t it better to go Dex with moderate strength investment and shifters edge?
Your hypothetical build is a little pretty... for a L20 character that's nearing the end of their adventuring career.
Being effective and surviving to that point while carrying a fair load for the party, however, currently does not look viable.
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Oozemorphs explicitly count as being both their normal base form and as an ooze.
Therefore, Dust of Acid Consumption, a 1600 gp magic item from Ultimate Equipment, becomes a DC 18 save or die effect on Oozemorphs.
Similarly, a 25 gp alchemical item from the Alchemy Manual, Bloating Solution, no-save eliminates an Oozemorph's ability to AoO for 1 minute. A 30 gp alchemical item from the same book, Desiccating Lubricant, no-save reduces their CMB and CMD to specific combat maneuvers. A 15 gp alchemical item from the same book, Congealer Spray, is a DC 15 save or be staggered against oozemorphs in a cone.
Also, I don't know if it's been mentioned, but unlike normal Shifters an Oozemorph cannot gain Wild Speech because the archetype completely replaces Shifter Aspects and Wild Shape with a flat Alter Self/Beast Shape/Giant Shape ability, ironically making it a better shapeshifter than the base Shifter except for the part where you revert into a blob of "I can't roleplay because my class features actively work against it."
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An alkali flask (from APG) costs 15gp, hits ranged touch AC, and does 2d6 damage to oozemorphs.
EDIT: One shot, good chance of killing a L1 character. Two will probably do the job, and endanger a L2 character. Granted, it requires some advance notice or blind luck...
Azothath, that's the effective equivalent of being given keys to a new vehicle, and then when you go to start it up it doesn't turn over (or turns over very horribly).
And then you're told "Well, go fix it in your garage, no sellbacks. And we're not going to correct the clear manufacturing defects. Good luck."
Your hypothetical build is a little pretty... for a L20 character that's nearing the end of their adventuring career.
Being effective and surviving to that point while carrying a fair load for the party, however, currently does not look viable.
I was more concerned if the numbers could keep up at higher levels.
The big hit to this build is that every form is large and anywhere where large does not work reduces you to 2-3 claw attacks. But at lower levels that also means shields, armor, and weapons. It's the mid to high level medium or smaller encounters that hose you.
Tiger at 1 gives you an AC boost with minors.
Tiger at 4 gives you pounce two claws and a bite while shifter claws let you bypass cold iron and silver dr.
At 5 you get bat and can fly for 5 hours. You might want to go falcon for more natural attacks.
By 10 you get monkey and your UMD really comes online. You'll soon be able to afford wild dragon hide plate and some wands.
By 15 your build needs to be ready for super high ACs so Wolverine rage helps here a lot in addition to more money for wands.
To the other person's comment, I don't like dex shifter thematically and I can't find the needed feat yet and it's getting errata'd anyways
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However, it also begins to fall into the 15-20 minute 'work day' issue, due to the limits on how long an aspect can be maintained.
...unless I missed something about how Aspects can be at-will and last indefinitely?
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However, it also begins to fall into the 15-20 minute 'work day' issue, due to the limits on how long an aspect can be maintained.
...unless I missed something about how Aspects can be at-will and last indefinitely?
Aspects are minor bonuses and will last for all combats
You don't spend minor uses to Wildshape.
I don't see your confusion...
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Something I've noticed is that the shifter is very...boring in terms of design., and quite front loaded too The lack of modular design means no unique talents to select as you level, and only a few irreversible decisions made whenever you can select a new aspect.
Compare that to a barbarian or an Unmonk who can select talents just about every other level and have a multitude of options there is little to deviate one shifter from another. They only have access to specific forms, and unlike a martial character their only "style" of combat is Natural Attacks.
The shifter could very much have used something like "manifestations" at 2nd and every even numbered level, with greater manifestations coming online at level 10. Like rogue talents.
Especially since racial choices don't matter much when you spend fights shifted, one shifter is very much like another.
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I'm not certain shifter is even better than Warrior.
Rough math a warrior can output +34/34/29/24 for 2d4+38 damage with a 15- 20 crit range, 42 AC, and is more generally useful from 1-20 because of better proficiencies.
Like any core only fighter criticisms apply to the most optimised shifters. And warriors don't need to burn feats to talk.
What is that, a 2-handed Estoc with Keen/Improved Critical? Did the guy just pour everything into Strength or what? Kinda wanna know how he got numbers that high. Should I assume scrolls & UMD? If so, I can totally see an NPC Warrior with access to Shapechange being superior to a Shifter.
In fact, I kinda want somebody to run the numbers. Zero WBL, just a naked Warrior with Shapechange vs a naked Shifter. Can the Shifter's class features stand up to an NPC with a single high level spell?
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Why shape shifters don't get Shapechange as an at will cap stone is beyond me. Like it seems so obvious.
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They don't even get anything beyond Beast Shape II. No Elemental Form, no Giant Form, no Form of the Dragon. It's both sad and sickening all at the same time. Sackening. That's what the Shifter is.
They do get flight and mouse form.
It’s not much but it is some slight utility over base fighters.
A lot of this could have been headed off at the pass by simply putting in Wild Shape (as per Druid Wild Shape) and putting two or three pages of sample animals in there along with perhaps an 'advancement' of the creature form after a certain level.
There would have been far less confusion, imo, and perhaps allowing a Shifter to shift between any of the 'basic forms' (including their starting form) during the duration of their Wild Shape would not be horribly overpowering.
EDIT: It could even be balanced by making it a move/standard/full round action. It'd reduce the utility a little bit but increase flexibility in the long run.
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Hmmm... That raises an interesting fix. Say, "A Shifter's Wild shape functions as a druid, but if they take the form of their Aspect, they get ____ bonuses." That way, you still have the idea of Shifters transforming into certain animals, but they can still transform into other things- they just don't get as many benefits.
What is that, a 2-handed Estoc with Keen/Improved Critical? Did the guy just pour everything into Strength or what? Kinda wanna know how he got numbers that high. Should I assume scrolls & UMD? If so, I can totally see an NPC Warrior with access to Shapechange being superior to a Shifter.
In fact, I kinda want somebody to run the numbers. Zero WBL, just a naked Warrior with Shapechange vs a naked Shifter. Can the Shifter's class features stand up to an NPC with a single high level spell?
Warrior with master Craftsman blacksmith or tailor, but that's unneeded since I'm under wbl for 20.
Human 20 point buy 18str 12dex 14con 14 int 8wis 10cha
Keen courageous +5 falchion and +5 mithral radiant flight full plate and boots of haste.
+5 natural armor amulet, +5 ring of deflection, Belt physical perfection +6, Headband of wisdom +6, +1 strength tome.
10th caster level shield wand 7500g. Wand of heroism
Courageous increases the heroism bonus by 2.
No polymorph effects because all the ones that don't remove armor are arcane and suffer arcane spell failure chance from armor when using an arcane scroll.
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Courageous increases the heroism bonus by 2.
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Hmmm... That raises an interesting fix. Say, "A Shifter's Wild shape functions as a druid, but if they take the form of their Aspect, they get ____ bonuses." That way, you still have the idea of Shifters transforming into certain animals, but they can still transform into other things- they just don't get as many benefits.
The only fix I think the Wild Shape needs is to be able to use it in round increments.
EDIT: Make that minute increments....just for ease.....
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I had such hopes of this class letting me relive my Master of many forms from 3.5 so sad it doesn't even come close.
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Hmmm... That raises an interesting fix. Say, "A Shifter's Wild shape functions as a druid, but if they take the form of their Aspect, they get ____ bonuses." That way, you still have the idea of Shifters transforming into certain animals, but they can still transform into other things- they just don't get as many benefits.The only fix I think the Wild Shape needs is to be able to use it in round increments.
EDIT: Make that minute increments....just for ease.....
Alternatively, rework it to be a "wild shaping trance" that lasts 1 hour/level during which the shifter can freely change shape to and from any of the forms she knows without ending it.
It feels like the shifter should be shifting forms a lot, not "I'm going to turn into a tiger and stay that way for six hours".
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For wildshape I’d be happy with hour per level+Wis, can be used in hour duration, can swap between aspects freely within those hours and aspects are empowered versions of the normal animal.
Like come with some appropriate feats or something.
I’d also give them a bonus feat or two when the get an aspect, from a select group of theme appropriate feats for each aspect, without pre reqs. But they’re only turned on when you’re in your minor/major aspect form.
That’s how I’d right the class.
I’d also make it so the claws could be slams or talons depending on the theme you’re going for.