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Does GM credit for a scenario grant items that were (conditionally) granted to players?


Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild

Grand Lodge **

If a scenario calls out that players who take certain actions in the scenario freely receive some benefit on the chronicle sheet - for example, they receive an item for free if they did X during the scenario - do GM's applying credit for the same chronicle sheet also have the option to treat their PCs as if they had done the same action?

Spoiler example of a particular scenario:

In 4-08 The Cultist's Kiss, PCs who accepted the Sihedron brand during the scenario receive the item for no cost on their chronicle sheets. Does a GM who runs the scenario have the option of giving his PC the brand at no cost?

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

GMs may select any boons they wish from the chronicle sheet or cross them out if they wish. (Useful in the case of negative effects.) The exception being those specifically called out as not accessible to GMs.

4-08 is unique in that the subject in question is not a boon and thus must be purchased by the GMs character rather than awarded for free.

Another similar scenario:

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

PFSRPGG v 9.0 page 17 wrote:
The GM can select any special boons bestowed by a Chronicle sheet, such as free magical treasure, regional boons, or future bonus die rolls. Boons for specific faction members may only be selected if the character that is receiving credit is part of that faction.

Grand Lodge **

Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

i have a similar question- in #8-07 Tome of Righteous Repose, the players only get what they find in the encounter.
Does the GM get all the chronicle rewards, regardless of the scenario events?

Sczarni *****

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That's how I've always run it. Same for the other Evergreens.

Silver Crusade ***

This came up last night: What about when you put the GM credit for a higher level adventure on a level 1 PC (reducing the gold to 500)? Do you get access to the items from both tiers of a 7-11 adventure at level 1?

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

I only grant the low-tier items, since it wasn't applied to a 10-11 character.

***

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Tome I only grant what could have been found given location and big boss chosen. If a character couldn’t have gotten access to all items, neither should the GM running it.

This seems consistent with the intent as I understand it.

Silver Crusade ***** RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

Fromper wrote:
This came up last night: What about when you put the GM credit for a higher level adventure on a level 1 PC (reducing the gold to 500)? Do you get access to the items from both tiers of a 7-11 adventure at level 1?

You only gain access to the lower subtier items (and yes, you get that access immediately).

Any boons are only earned when the character reaches the minimum level for the scenario.

Dark Archive ***** Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Coventry aka terry_t_uk

BretI wrote:

Tome I only grant what could have been found given location and big boss chosen. If a character couldn’t have gotten access to all items, neither should the GM running it.

This seems consistent with the intent as I understand it.

I agree - it seems odd for the GM to gain items that did not appear in the adventure.

*****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

GM should get the whole list.

Imagine if there's an item the GM wants, it then encourages the GM to use that encounter even if it's inappropriate for the group.

Keep it simple, leave all the items on the list for the GM.

(Heck, keep it simple and have a shorter list of items that's always present for players rather than making the GM cross off a zillion on all the chronicle sheets.)

Sovereign Court *** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

1 person marked this as a favorite.

For Tome, I'd say the GM should choose one single location to get credit/access from; not necessarily the one the PCs went to, but also not all three of them at once.

That at least removes the incentive to set up a self-serving dungeon.

Silver Crusade **

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't know of any rulings that relate directly to this, but based on common sense, it seems likely this is how things are supposed to work:

An imaginary scenario has a place where players make a choice. They either go through door A or door B. The chronicle sheet has some things they get if they go through A, others for B, and the scenario only lets them go through one of the doors.

The players get the things for the door they choose.

The GM can choose to either get all the door A stuff, or all the door B stuff, but not both.

*

Fromper wrote:
This came up last night: What about when you put the GM credit for a higher level adventure on a level 1 PC (reducing the gold to 500)? Do you get access to the items from both tiers of a 7-11 adventure at level 1?

Also page 17 of the guide:

Quote:
If the GM with a low-level character runs any higher tier scenarios that don’t include a subtier for her 1st-level rogue, she takes the lowest subtier Chronicle sheet from that scenario and holds it for her PC.

To me that says that applying it to a 1st level PC also gets the low tier

Shadow Lodge **

Redelia wrote:

I don't know of any rulings that relate directly to this, but based on common sense, it seems likely this is how things are supposed to work:

An imaginary scenario has a place where players make a choice. They either go through door A or door B. The chronicle sheet has some things they get if they go through A, others for B, and the scenario only lets them go through one of the doors.

The players get the things for the door they choose.

The GM can choose to either get all the door A stuff, or all the door B stuff, but not both.

That might seem reasonable, but that's not the way it actually works, nor should it work that way. Having it work that way incentivizes GMs to steer the party in the direction of the loot that their character wants. It's even worse for Tome of Righteous Repose, where it could influence GMs to make decisions about how to select elements for the very dungeon itself.

I'm not saying most or even a large portion of GMs would give into this temptation; I'm saying that there's no justifiable need for the temptation to exist in the first place. The decisions the players make should have absolutely no affect on the GM's chronicle, just as the players TPKing before they even get to your hypothetical door (and thus encountering the loot behind neither of them) should have any affect on it.

*

SCPRedMage wrote:
Redelia wrote:

I don't know of any rulings that relate directly to this, but based on common sense, it seems likely this is how things are supposed to work:

An imaginary scenario has a place where players make a choice. They either go through door A or door B. The chronicle sheet has some things they get if they go through A, others for B, and the scenario only lets them go through one of the doors.

The players get the things for the door they choose.

The GM can choose to either get all the door A stuff, or all the door B stuff, but not both.

That might seem reasonable, but that's not the way it actually works, nor should it work that way. Having it work that way incentivizes GMs to steer the party in the direction of the loot that their character wants. It's even worse for Tome of Righteous Repose, where it could influence GMs to make decisions about how to select elements for the very dungeon itself.

No it doesn't. The GM gets to choose an option; it doesn't have to be the same option as the players choose.

Silver Crusade **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
SCPRedMage wrote:
Redelia wrote:

I don't know of any rulings that relate directly to this, but based on common sense, it seems likely this is how things are supposed to work:

An imaginary scenario has a place where players make a choice. They either go through door A or door B. The chronicle sheet has some things they get if they go through A, others for B, and the scenario only lets them go through one of the doors.

The players get the things for the door they choose.

The GM can choose to either get all the door A stuff, or all the door B stuff, but not both.

That might seem reasonable, but that's not the way it actually works, nor should it work that way. Having it work that way incentivizes GMs to steer the party in the direction of the loot that their character wants. It's even worse for Tome of Righteous Repose, where it could influence GMs to make decisions about how to select elements for the very dungeon itself.

I'm not saying most or even a large portion of GMs would give into this temptation; I'm saying that there's no justifiable need for the temptation to exist in the first place. The decisions the players make should have absolutely no affect on the GM's chronicle, just as the players TPKing before they even get to your hypothetical door (and thus encountering the loot behind neither of them) should have any affect on it.

I think you're misunderstanding what I said. I said the GM gets to choose which set they want; that doesn't depend on what the players do.

Shadow Lodge **

Andy Brown wrote:
No it doesn't. The GM gets to choose an option; it doesn't have to be the same option as the players choose.

Let me ask you this: where is the rule that GMs have to cross out any item on the chronicle? Other than the bit about a GM applying the chronicle to an out-of-subtier character getting "access to items and boons for the subtier at which the adventure was played" (which implies they otherwise get access to items and boons for the subtier they fall into), there's no mention in the "Game Master Rewards" section indicating that GMs don't get full access to all of the items on the chronicle.

In fact, the only place that indicates you should cross anything off the chronicle is on page 15, under Step 7 of how to fill out a chronicle:

Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide wrote:
Step 7: Mark any special boons the players did or did not earn (U) and cross out any treasure items the party didn’t find in the scenario (V); additionally, if you’re running the lower subtier, always cross out all of the items listed for the higher subtier. Return the Chronicle sheet to the player.

If you were to apply that rule to the GM's chronicle, it would mean that they only get access to the items that the players found; they would not, as you suggest, get to "choose" their own option.

But I think it's pretty clear that that entire section is about filling out player chronicles, and doesn't necessarily apply to GM chronicles.

I have found nothing, whether in the Guide, the PFS FAQ, or on the PFS forums, that says anything about a GM having to cross any items off of the chronicle, other than if they're getting lower subtier credit.

It might seem like that's how it should work, but there's literally no rule that requires it. GMs get full access to purchase any items on the chronicle for their subtier, even if it would be impossible for players to get the same.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Version 4.3 wrote:
Should a GM receive a Chronicle sheet that indicates her character is between subtiers (for example, if she runs a Tier 1–5 scenario with Subtiers 1–2 and 4–5 but has a 3rd-level character), she must always play down, taking a Chronicle sheet for the lower subtier. This rule is meant to balance the fact that the GM’s character does not have to expend any resources or risk death while gaining a Chronicle sheet for running a scenario.

Previous discussion.

Shadow Lodge **

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Version 4.3 wrote:
Should a GM receive a Chronicle sheet that indicates her character is between subtiers (for example, if she runs a Tier 1–5 scenario with Subtiers 1–2 and 4–5 but has a 3rd-level character), she must always play down, taking a Chronicle sheet for the lower subtier. This rule is meant to balance the fact that the GM’s character does not have to expend any resources or risk death while gaining a Chronicle sheet for running a scenario.
Previous discussion.

While that makes an interesting historical context, it's not really relevant four years later. The current version of that text:

Version 9.0 wrote:
A GM who receives a Chronicle sheet that indicates her character is between subtiers must always receive the Out-of-Subtier gold value and access to items and boons for the subtier at which the adventure was played.

Personally, I think they should have kept the "always play down" rule for boons and item access; I don't like that this is literally the one instance that what the players do affects the GM chronicle.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Do you feel that the intent has changed?

Quote:
A GM can assign credit for running an adventure in the same ways a player can, and must follow the same rules as a player when applying credit to a character.

*

SCPRedMage wrote:
It might seem like that's how it should work, but there's literally no rule that requires it. GMs get full access to purchase any items on the chronicle for their subtier, even if it would be impossible for players to get the same.

With the exception of faction boons for the wrong faction.

I agree that what it says doesn't quite fit with what (apparently) quite a few of us think it should say.

In my previous post I was trying to clarify what Redelia had suggested, which you seemed to have misread or misinterpreted.

Shadow Lodge **

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

Do you feel that the intent has changed?

Quote:
A GM can assign credit for running an adventure in the same ways a player can, and must follow the same rules as a player when applying credit to a character.

That quoted section does not, and never has referred to boon or item access; it refers to such things as reducing the chronicle for a level 1 character. If it did refer to item access, as I stated above, it would mean that the GM only gets access to the items the players actually found, which no one here is suggesting; in fact, everyone here seems to believe that that absolutely is not the case.

You could try to argue that it means the GM only gets access to items the GM "finds" during play, but the fact that the GM doesn't actually play means that they can't "find" anything in the traditional sense, and we'd need a special defined process for what that means.

So no, the intent has not changed, because the intent of that was never anything to do with item access.

Andy Brown wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:
It might seem like that's how it should work, but there's literally no rule that requires it. GMs get full access to purchase any items on the chronicle for their subtier, even if it would be impossible for players to get the same.

With the exception of faction boons for the wrong faction.

I agree that what it says doesn't quite fit with what (apparently) quite a few of us think it should say.

In my previous post I was trying to clarify what Redelia had suggested, which you seemed to have misread or misinterpreted.

Item access is not considered a "boon", nor is ever referred to as a "boon". Boons are the special text on the chronicles; the stuff located in the section marked "U" on the example chronicle on page 15 of the Guide. Item access is listed separately in the section marked "V". The part about faction-specific boons is unrelated to item access.

Look, what you're claiming the rules "are" is clearly being colored by what you think the rules should be. While I can see why they would make sense to you for them to be that way, this idea is not supported by the actual rules. If you want to argue that GMs get anything other than full access to the subtier-appropriate items on the chronicle, you're going to need to show something in the Guide, the PFS FAQ, or a post in the PFS forums from PFS staff that indicates that without verbal gymnastics. Until then, the only restriction on GM item access that we can know is an actual rule is subtier-related.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

SCPRedMage wrote:
So no, the intent has not changed, because the intent of that was never anything to do with item access.

That statement was for clarification. I asked if you believed the intent of GM credit had changed since version 4.3.

Shadow Lodge **

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:
So no, the intent has not changed, because the intent of that was never anything to do with item access.
That statement was for clarification. I asked if you believed the intent of GM credit had changed since version 4.3.

I believe the intent of the 4.3 Guide is irrelevant, because the text has changed significantly.

That said, no, I don't think the intent in regards to GM item access has changed since then; I believe even back then the intent was for GMs to have access to all items appropriate to their chronicle's subtier.

*

SCPRedMage wrote:
Andy Brown wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:
It might seem like that's how it should work, but there's literally no rule that requires it. GMs get full access to purchase any items on the chronicle for their subtier, even if it would be impossible for players to get the same.

With the exception of faction boons for the wrong faction.

I agree that what it says doesn't quite fit with what (apparently) quite a few of us think it should say.

In my previous post I was trying to clarify what Redelia had suggested, which you seemed to have misread or misinterpreted.

Item access is not considered a "boon", nor is ever referred to as a "boon".

Ugh. Tired eyes. I missed that you were just talking about items, not the rest of the rewards.

Quote:
Look, what you're claiming the rules "are" is clearly being colored by what you think the rules should be.

I never claimed anything about what the rules are:

I wrote:
I agree that what it says doesn't quite fit with what (apparently) quite a few of us think it should say.

so I think we're in agreement.

For clarity of what I think - I think that for fairness, where there are multiple choices (such as Tome of Righteous Repose) the GM should only get access to one set of items. However, the current rules don't limit it like that.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

SCPRedMage wrote:
I believe even back then the intent was for GMs to have access to all items appropriate to their chronicle's subtier.

Even when between subtiers?

Shadow Lodge **

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:
I believe even back then the intent was for GMs to have access to all items appropriate to their chronicle's subtier.
Even when between subtiers?

That's the one thing that clearly has changed, as shown by the text we each quoted; before, when between subtiers you always got item/boon access from the lower subtier, whereas now you get item/boon access from whatever subtier the players actually played.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

You believe that intent has changed?

Shadow Lodge **

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
You believe that intent has changed?

You keep asking that, and I keep telling you that no, I don't think that the intention behind this particular rule (GM item access, not regarding subtiers) has changed. It's getting a bit frustrating having to repeat that, and you're being more than a little condescending.

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